Do the rich DESERVE their money?

reply to post by above


You should get an applause for this post. Thank you for sharing for someone that is wealthy enough not to work.

A very late arrival to your thread!

I believe the current system is too uneven.
I will be leaving the third world out of this argument as their problems are too numerous and complex to address.

Every person who works a full working week should be able to afford to buy a home, adequate and quality sustenance and afford to pursue some leisure time of hobby.
If some are more deserving of their wealth because they work harder, or smarter of sneaker, or studied for many years then fine, that's not a problem, they can have 7 houses, exquisite sustenance and luxurious leisure and hobbies.

But no one in the USA who works full time should be struggling to pay for the essentials of life while others have more wealth than could be spent in a lifetime.

I don't have a problem with wealth in general, but I do have a problem with the insanely unequal distribution.
We should not all have equal wealth but I cannot see logical reason why working people should still be struggling at all.

I'm not suggesting we take all the money from the significantly wealthy and traipse about throwing it around in socially deprived areas.
But we do need to start manipulating the system as soon as possible to pave the way for a future of less insanely unequal wealth distribution. If it remains even highly unequal that would satisfy me as long as those on the bottom tier can still afford to live without hardship.

most of the wealthy should keep it. Its the ones that have been manipulating the market that need to pay it back and there needs to be a full review of bribes and both parties need to brough to justice. it isn't about taking from the rich its making it so they pay there fair share. When some of the record breaking GDP's pay no taxes and some get refunds there's a issue with the system.

reply to post by NoHierarchy


Not even a paragraph into your first post on the subject, which happens to be the OP...and you say something along the lines of "they didn't work as hard, more yet, 10 times as hard...." ummmm....dude....if they worked 10 times as hard then they would have effectively earned 10 times as much? Correct? You are pissed that the "rich" are rich....admit it. I'm broke as #. Have been for quite a few months now. Bills, house payments, child support, etc. is all "unfair". However, if I made a better living, I'd be incredibly offended at your insinuation that it was somehow "my fault" because of my "wealth" that you were "not as wealthy" as me. The one thing that pisses me off more than anything during this economic, housing, free market "crisis", as a self admittedly person who is struggling to get by from month to month, is people literally blaming their problems on the wealthy. Is it right we pay a baseball player 600 dollars an hour? No, it probably isn't. Actually, it certainly isn't. Does the devalue the work I do? Personally, it certainly does. Do I deserve that much money? No. Does said baseball player? No. He gets it, that's unfair, I don't get it, that's unfair. But, I comfortably struggle on 1700 dollars a month. It isn't the wealthy's fault. Stop grasping at straws.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by empireofpain
The real reason all of you hate the rich and not want them to have money is ENVY.

You ENVY them and there wealth. Dont lie and just freakin admit it.

The op if given a chance would become a millionaire and would say "screw everyone else" because its just the damn truth. just as anyone who was sane and human would.

and dont try to deny it.

its like that test with the two monkeys. one was given a grape and the other was given raisin or prune.

The one getting the raisin and prune started noticing the other monkey getting a grape....and went crazy with envy. from then on the monkey refused the raisins and only wanted the grape.

ITS JUST PURE ENVY YOU IDIOTS! thats why you hate the rich who you think dont 'deserve' there wealth.

Give me a break...your nothing but jealous little CHILDREN!(not to anyone particular but all those that hate the rich in general)

Oh yeah? Tell that to the starving millions all over the world, tell that to the majority of humanity who lives in relative poverty. Tell that even to those in the first world who have to work sh*t jobs for most of their lives to fill the pockets of the rich.

This isn't about one person being jealous of another, this is about the world as a whole and the gross inequities of the haves and the have-nots, and if you can't see such an obvious/simple big picture as that, then the only child here is you.

Just stop mother Theresa. So if you won the lotto tomorrow and came out with 30 million dollars what are you doing with it? Giving 29 million to the starving across the world? Adopting 10 children from 3rd world countries? Knock it off. 99 percent of the "rich" are rich because they earned it and you know it. If you were so fortunate to be "rich" from smashing a game of keno you can't look a soul in the eye and say "I'm devoting my winnings to bettering the lives of the less fortunate, and not spending a dime on myself or my comfort." Rebut all you want, and I'll maintain that you are a liar.

It depends how they got the money.

If they are some wall street crook that helped create the derivatives then not at all.

If they are some great inventor that made hybrid super capacitors that let and Audi
car get 375 miles on one charge of electricity then yeah let them keep it.

If you change the world for the better for most ppl on the planet you have done
a great good, and good odds with the money you will repeat the process.

If you are laying around and not working you are not owed anything by anyone.

If your a corporation who works ppl for pennies in some 3rd world hell hole, not at all.

If your a corporation who pollutes the environment and pushes GMO toxins on ppl, not at all.

The right vs wrong mind set makes it pretty obvious who should be rewarded for their efforts.

If you do good your good to go.

If you do bad, your not good to go.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by empireofpain

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by empireofpain
The real reason all of you hate the rich and not want them to have money is ENVY.

You ENVY them and there wealth. Dont lie and just freakin admit it.

The op if given a chance would become a millionaire and would say "screw everyone else" because its just the damn truth. just as anyone who was sane and human would.

and dont try to deny it.

its like that test with the two monkeys. one was given a grape and the other was given raisin or prune.

The one getting the raisin and prune started noticing the other monkey getting a grape....and went crazy with envy. from then on the monkey refused the raisins and only wanted the grape.

ITS JUST PURE ENVY YOU IDIOTS! thats why you hate the rich who you think dont 'deserve' there wealth.

Give me a break...your nothing but jealous little CHILDREN!(not to anyone particular but all those that hate the rich in general)

Oh yeah? Tell that to the starving millions all over the world, tell that to the majority of humanity who lives in relative poverty. Tell that even to those in the first world who have to work sh*t jobs for most of their lives to fill the pockets of the rich.

This isn't about one person being jealous of another, this is about the world as a whole and the gross inequities of the haves and the have-nots, and if you can't see such an obvious/simple big picture as that, then the only child here is you.

Its still envy no matter what reason you have it dee dee dee.

You can blame it on all those things you mentioned. Try to take the moral highground all you want.

The truth is that your just a little jealous/envious CHILD. You can wrap your envy and jealousy inside good intentions and wonderful rainbows but your STILL JUST ENVIOUS.

its not your fault though.its pretty much written into us though as we ae pretty much monkeys( i know we are great apes but whatever!)

Just keep living in your illusion. keep Thinking you hate the rich for moral reasons or what ever makes you think you are right.

Dont deny it because you know its true(of course you will deny it though....still gotta have that moral highground).

No matter what cause or justification you wrap it in...ITS STILL JUST ENVY AND JEALOUSY!

Also by reading your responses im guessing your a socialist and in favor of wealth redistribution.

Im also guessing you favor some form of thievery...oh wait if your already a socialist you favor that

[edit on 18-6-2010 by empireofpain]

Once again, you're dead-wrong.

Please read my initial post and argue the ACTUAL points I made instead of projecting other peoples' jealousy onto me. My initial post really hasn't much at all to do with jealousy and instead a SERIOUS analysis of our world/society as a system or series of systems which produce certain overall results. The results we see are- most people are poor/impoverished, a small minority are able to gain far more wealth than is reasonable. You must open your mind to the possibility that our society could be organized in a virtually INFINITE manner of ways. Any of these ways will produce its own set of unique results. With that in mind you MUST come to the conclusion that the way we live collectively is nowhere near the best we can do, there are better ways. My contention is that we must be honest about the flaws of our system and work to correct them, even if it means scrapping the current one. As they say- doing something over and over again even if it's not working is called insanity. This is an insane culture we live in, and nothing gets solved.

So what are these "flaws in the system" you speak of? People who create things? People who DO things? People who EARN things? Keep their fair share? I'm willing to put money on being worse off than you right now financially, I've had a pretty rough last 365. I'm not bitching about the rich. I might bitch about my lack of wealth. But then again I haven't gone platinum, starred in a blockbuster movie, created an IPAD, or sent top notch technology to outer space. I haven't cured diseases, I haven't developed cutting edge diets, and I can't sell you a workout machine guaranteed to give you your desired figure in 6 weeks or less. I have worked my ass off, But not anymore than my co-workers to my left and right. Why SHOULD I, why SHOULD YOU....better yet....what room do I, what room do YOU....have to accuse the "rich" of inequality? They are rich, because THEY did something that pales in comparison anything you and I have ever done. I've served in Iraq twice, 8 years in the military, 2 years on the police force. I've paid all my taxes. I work hard. I pay child support. I provide for my family. WHY SHOULDN'T I BE RICH, DAMMIT? Because...I haven't done anything extraordinary. And if I had, and I had wealth...

I'd be flabbergasted that somehow, your lack of wealth, is some how my fault, and unfair.

Originally posted by DJM8507
I wonder if Paris Hilton deserves her wealth?

Or how about CEOs who inherited their positions due to their family's influence?

[edit on 22-6-2010 by DJM8507]

Sure they deserve it. Their families EARNED it. Why shouldn't they deserve it? Do you deserve the wealth Paris Hilton inherited? Because she's Paris Hilton, and you are you? So her family was to leave their work, and their money, and their value, to you? As opposed to their daughter? I have a two year old son. If I someday became incredibly wealthy, regardless of my son's lifestyle, and regardless of the right or wrong decisions my son chooses to make in the future, I can guarantee nobody would get my wealth, and my life's work, other than my son. He can do with it as he pleases. It was my work, that earned my money, that became inherently his, for him to do with as he pleases. Why is that wrong? Why is that complicated? If I died tomorrow my son upon his 18th birthday would inherit over 1 million dollars....should he not get it? It should go to you? Is that what you are saying? It is my money to do with as I see fit. If I leave my son my insurance, along with my assets, and I die tomorrow and he becomes a 23 month year old millionaire, well then....bitch about that. Apparently that's unfair.

Which brings up my next question/hypothetical situation. Suppose I did in fact kick the bucket in my sleep tonight. Upon my death, my son inherits over 400 thousand in life insurance. He also inherits ALL of my assets. Home, cars, stocks, bonds, veteran's benefits, etc. At 23 months old my son is sitting on 1 million dollars. He obviously hasn't worked a day in his life. He obviously hasn't "earned" 1 million dollars. So...fast forward. My son, with his 1 million dollars, on his 18th birthday, goes off to college. While in college, my son develops the next "great" social networking atmosphere Ala Facebook, Myspace, Google+. He takes that 1 million dollars, that he never "earned", and turns it into a multi-million dollar en-devour. Somehow he is not entitled to that? Because it was "inherited"? It was my money. Which makes it HIS money. Some people are pathetic. This screams (to me) of the entire "OWS movement"....such a joke. People bitching about people making money. Nobody determines how much money YOU make. Sure, society determines the market value of the job that YOU CHOOSE to do. But society didn't force your hand, and the excuse that the resources aren't afforded to everyone is bull#. The resources to make money, and the resources to leave something behind for your children, and the resources to leave something behind for your children's children, do in fact exist. If people stopped bitching about the "One percent", and made an effort to move ahead in this world, the absolute worst they would do, is 10 or 12 dollars an hour (which I won't dispute is not much), with some benefits, a full retirement, and payment into potential scholarships for their children, is entirely possible. Again, 13-1700 dollars a month right now. I pay damn near 500 dollars a month in child support. I have a fiance with a daughter (that isn't my daughter) that I pay to feed, clothe, bathe, and house. I pay bills. I pay for a 4 bedroom house. I send my son to daycare and pay every penny of his health insurance and additional medical expenses. I pay car insurance. I pay a phone bill. I pay for the internet and cable television. And on that 1700 dollars a month (at the most) I live pretty fairly comfortably. Live within your means and try to improve them if you aren't happy. It's nobody else's fault that you aren't "wealthy", and it certainly isn't the "wealthy's" fault..

reply to post by mademyself1984


With all due respect, I believe you are missing the point. This isn't about blaming the rich or claiming to be more deserving of their acquired wealth. This debate is about the state of the society we live in and how we view each other. It is a hugely complex issue that goes far beyond economics.

Originally posted by indedlokcathexis
reply to post by mademyself1984

 

With all due respect, I believe you are missing the point. This isn't about blaming the rich or claiming to be more deserving of their acquired wealth. This debate is about the state of the society we live in and how we view each other. It is a hugely complex issue that goes far beyond economics.

I'm not missing the point, and it is in fact people maybe not blaming the rich, but certainly feeling they should be entitled to the wealth. I've never agreed with tax hikes or cuts for anybody, be it rich or poor or somewhere in between. Sure, the more money you EARN, the more things you can afford to OWN, the more you can reasonably SPEND, should result in more taxes. Why is it however, those said taxes should be any higher than yours or mine? Why do people feel the wealth should be "distributed". I don't see many middle class people such as myself taking 10 or 20 percent of their earnings and distributing weekly, bi-weekly, or even monthly to less fortunate people just because it's "fair". It actually isn't fair. It's a joke to think I'm entitled to anything that I haven't earned. Sure, I help pay someone's salary everytime I go see a movie, or buy a ticket to a baseball game, or purchase a CD. Why exactly am I entitled to anything because I CHOOSE to pay for a service or product? If people think the less than wealthy at are an unfair disadvantage, then stop buying the products that support the wealthy, and create your own amazing service to society that will generate billions of dollars and a fat yearly income.

Only the Lord can say what each person deserves. It is foolish to try to talk about what people "deserve." The Lord judges us all based on criteria only He knows. Our underdstanding will always be imperfect.

This aside, I think nobody could possibly need more than, say, $10 million (and most need a lot less, me included lol), so if a rich person is pursuing money endlessly for money's sake, its a sign of greed at the very least.

The base idea that the rich are by definition deserving of their wealth is firmly embedded in our cultural conditioning in the US. It is the Protestant Ethic thesis which was part of our founders' beliefs.

It asserts, in a general way, that recieving material wealth is a gift of God, which is bestowed by Him upon those who work hard and are ethically disciplined. Therefore, having wealth is a sign that that person is good.

This arose in opposition to the Catholic ethics, in which wealth was a sign of a person being bad- that wealth separates one from their spiritual nature. To intend to gain it is already a "sin" as one is wishing to separate from God, then as they attain it, it corrupts further- so the more wealth you have, the more evil you are.

In the Catholic ethics, the poor were blessed, as having been strong in fighting the desire for wealth in exchange for spiritual fulfilment,
In the Protestant ethics, the rich were blessed, as having been strong in fighting the desire to be lazy, in exchange for spiritual fulfilment (the wealth just being a side effect, or observable evidence of that spiritual fulfilment)

Even if people aren't religious today, they can still find these ethics affecting their thought because they are so deeply conditioned at an early age, depending upon where they were raised and by whom.

There has been some speculation through the years that immigration threatens those anglo-protestant values, as you get more peoples joining in that come from cultures that are Catholic based (like the Latinos, and some Europeans) you dilute the cultural values more and more.
It's worth considering that hypothesis as we watch what is happening today.

My personal opinion on the reality is that some rich people didn't earn their wealth in ethical ways, and some did.
I'm guessing it is half and half?
Sometimes it is not as simple as measuring amount of work as things like measuring the risks they were willing to take.....or the responsibility they were willing to carry.

We are not rich, but in our community, we are one of the ones who are "better off" and it stirs up some bitterness and jealousy amongst some of the community at times. But we took big risks to get here. When we had three small children, I didn't speak the language, so couldn't get a job, my husband was working a low paying job he hated and that required incredibly long hours. So together we decided he'd quit, and take the chance of finding something better, and did. Everyone else was criticizing that decision, and the pressure of the family and friends increased the challenge.

My husband got into medical school, which was close to a miracle in itself, but his determination won over the board, then he spent years riding a scooter for an hour each way to school, often in the snow, and we barely saw him with all the studying he had to do. We ate potatoes and pasta. He graduated first in his class, with an award for his thesis, and was hired before he had his graduation ceremony.

Now, he works less hours, and is paid way more. His job is much easier than what he was doing before, and being of a culture that is Catholic based ethics, often feels guilty about this. But the people around who are still in that situation and get jealous of us, when they become aware of the risks and difficulty he undertook to get there, they always have their eyes grow big and say they would NEVER do that! That is stupid!

Well, we were stupid and here we are, driving past YOU in more expensive cars and going on vacations and having expensive hobbies. I understand their feelings, but besides hard physical work and suffering there is the courage to fight your fear of insecurity and take risks, which also pays.

Concerning the current conflicts in the US, I do think there is some things to consider- like that at the beginning, just after a revolution, or the construction of a society, the playing field is leveled, and the risk takers and hard workers are free to begin rising.
But throughout history, we see that with time, empires are built and slowly the wealth starts to become distributed less by what you do and more by who you are born as. The families pass it on, and the kids get soft and stupid for lack of challenge and work, and you eventually end up with the same thing that happened in the past with the royal families.
Paris Hilton is our modern day Marie Antoinette.

Originally posted by Partygirl
Only the Lord can say what each person deserves. It is foolish to try to talk about what people "deserve." The Lord judges us all based on criteria only He knows. Our underdstanding will always be imperfect.

This aside, I think nobody could possibly need more than, say, $10 million (and most need a lot less, me included lol), so if a rich person is pursuing money endlessly for money's sake, its a sign of greed at the very least.

Okay, religious beliefs aside, people are actually DESERVING and UNDESERVING of things. I'm sorry, but you can't go into work tomorrow and tell you boss that you want to be paid whatever God thinks you deserve, and you estimate that total to be based off of the good character and christian values that you have set forth in your lifestyle. I'm a Christian. And I believe that I DESERRRRVE every bit of anything I have put work into, at the prescribed determined worth of the work I am doing. If I don't like that, then I can take what I have EARNED, apply it to further my knowledge in any number of expertise, and then enhance my financial situation when I am finished with whatever improvements I choose to make. The Lord doesn't decide that I deserve 52 thousand dollars a year. My boss did that.


Edited to add, a "rich person" pursuing "endless money" isn't greedy. When said "rich person" dies, and God is determining what he "deserves", his family, be it wife, kids, grandchildren, etc., will inherit the "endless" money he pursued "greedily", that they DESERVE, that he EARNED, in order to better their lives. Do I need 10 million dollars? Absolutely not. Would I bitch if I had 20 million dollars? No way in hell, and neither would my kids, or my kids kids, or their kids, or probably even their kids after that. I understand the premise of "detaching" ourselves from money and "commercial" things, or "wants", but that's not my prerogative My prerogative is to live as absolutely comfortably as I can, and ensure my children can do much of the same. If you want to be broke, living in a cramped house, driving an unreliable vehicle to an undesirable job, working unreasonable hours, for miniscule pay, and that is the life you want to pass on to your family when you leave this world, that is your prerogative. I'm fortunate enough to live in a country where I can make my own wealth and do with it as I please, and I fully intend on doing that to the absolute maximum until I cease to exist.

Originally posted by Partygirl
Only the Lord can say what each person deserves. It is foolish to try to talk about what people "deserve." The Lord judges us all based on criteria only He knows. Our underdstanding will always be imperfect.

This aside, I think nobody could possibly need more than, say, $10 million (and most need a lot less, me included lol), so if a rich person is pursuing money endlessly for money's sake, its a sign of greed at the very least.

Why are the starving in Africa and in the 3rd world so undeserving of Gods help, Why has God decided that only some people should be allowed to enjoy his creation?

Originally posted by Wildbob77
If you took all the money away from the rich, and equally distributed it amongst the population of a country, I'd be willing to bet that most of the rich would be rich again in 5-10 years.

The poor would once again be poor.
Many people are poor because of the choices they make.

Some of the rich are rich because of the choices they've made.

Just my thoughts.

Unfortunately, that has a lot of truth to it. I started working for an attorney a while back and we had a client who was terribly injured in a car wreck--not his fault. He ended up with a prosthesis for his leg and a check for $150,000. He got more of a settlement that would come in a monthly check (I think the total settlement was $500,000). Plus, he was awarded permanent disability benefits and got workers' comp benefits because he happened to be working at the time.

The man squandered away his nice big check in less than one year. Not on a car or a house or necessities...he blew it on drugs and alcohol and other crap. He would come in every month looking for his next installment check looking like a train wreck. He would blow his government handouts on who knows what. I don't think he ever ate much. He walked everywhere and lived in a trailer park. I wanted to just shake him so hard and say "What have you done?" Nice guy but had the brains of a slug. He was drowning in self-pity but he wasn't real bright before the accident.

So yes, you're right. A lot of poor people are that way directly due to their own choices. Not that I'd want to lose my leg but if I came into that kind of windfall, I'd never have to worry about money again, ever. And he really didn't get that much, when you compare that to the ultra-gazillionairs out there. If this guy ended up with millions, he wouldn't have lived much longer.

The problem with the rich earning money is the percentage they earn in relation to everyone else. A person can only become rich by taking money from others, and if they take to much it causes an in balance in society.

If the rich were prepared to take a cut in their earnings so that the gap would be reduced between rich and poor it would make for a much fairer society. The rich would still have enough money to lord it over everyone else and enjoy a luxury lifestyle compared to everyone else, but it would also allow those at the bottom of the heap have a home and a minimum income so they would not starve.

Absolutely no one derserves to be one of the mega rich at the expense of every one else. Just think how much more pleasent society could be if their was enough money available to feed everyone, treat everyone who has a medical conditon, and house everyone in adequate housing and educate the populace enough so everyone could work together for the greater good of society. Perhaps it is a utopian dream but it is those that have the wealth and are in positions of power who are the ones stoping that dream becoming a reality by their greed.

Originally posted by CoherentlyConfused

Originally posted by Wildbob77
If you took all the money away from the rich, and equally distributed it amongst the population of a country, I'd be willing to bet that most of the rich would be rich again in 5-10 years.

The poor would once again be poor.
Many people are poor because of the choices they make.

Some of the rich are rich because of the choices they've made.

Just my thoughts.

Unfortunately, that has a lot of truth to it. I started working for an attorney a while back and we had a client who was terribly injured in a car wreck--not his fault. He ended up with a prosthesis for his leg and a check for $150,000. He got more of a settlement that would come in a monthly check (I think the total settlement was $500,000). Plus, he was awarded permanent disability benefits and got workers' comp benefits because he happened to be working at the time.

The man squandered away his nice big check in less than one year. Not on a car or a house or necessities...he blew it on drugs and alcohol and other crap. He would come in every month looking for his next installment check looking like a train wreck. He would blow his government handouts on who knows what. I don't think he ever ate much. He walked everywhere and lived in a trailer park. I wanted to just shake him so hard and say "What have you done?" Nice guy but had the brains of a slug. He was drowning in self-pity but he wasn't real bright before the accident.

So yes, you're right. A lot of poor people are that way directly due to their own choices. Not that I'd want to lose my leg but if I came into that kind of windfall, I'd never have to worry about money again, ever. And he really didn't get that much, when you compare that to the ultra-gazillionairs out there. If this guy ended up with millions, he wouldn't have lived much longer.

The rich also squander money not just the poor. Just because some one squanders money is not a reason to say the poor should always remain poor.

If people who were CEO's of large companies took a paycut then that could be redistributed to the people at the bottom of that company. Or depending on the profits of an organisation it could reduce the price of the products it sells in order that the consumer also benefits by not having to pay over the odds for a product.

The whole structure of society needs to reorganized and thought out from top to bottom. It is quite clear that capitalism is only good for the few.

Originally posted by keldas

The rich also squander money not just the poor. Just because some one squanders money is not a reason to say the poor should always remain poor.

I think he meant "the poor will always remain poor" not that they should remain poor. They will remain poor by way of their habits. Practically all poor people are financially illiterate; they don't know what to do with money besides spend it all. And because of that they will always remain poor unless they educate themselves about money and personal finance.

If people who were CEO's of large companies took a paycut then that could be redistributed to the people at the bottom of that company. Or depending on the profits of an organisation it could reduce the price of the products it sells in order that the consumer also benefits by not having to pay over the odds for a product.

That's not going to fix the problem with financial literacy.

The whole structure of society needs to reorganized and thought out from top to bottom. It is quite clear that capitalism is only good for the few.

This society hasn't had true capitalism. It's more like corporatism. A true free market has not existed in this society at least in the last 100 years.