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Clinton says Ariz. to be sued over immigration law, but Justice Dept. won

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posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 11:37 PM
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seriously This is still a issue... people still whining about the mistreated illegals.
I like how the the biggest cry babies, don't Live in Arizona... I would think by now people would Wake the %&@$ up. Arizona is rapidly turning into a war zone...If you don't live their you should have no say in what laws they pass there. Arizona has the right to defend themselves, without government interference. I need a vacation from this site... I am gonna burst a blood vessel. Nobody ever learns...




posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:15 AM
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OK, I've put this off far too long.

My take: rebuttals welcome (at your pleasure.)

Issues: Political, Social, Cultural, Economic.

Economic:

This country, just as any other, must be protected from the slow bleed of supporting citizens who do not participate in our economic system. Like it or not, any indigent population crossing from any country into our own will negatively impact those who do have a stake in the already mismanaged financing of our national goals.

Once here, non-citizens routinely move wealth out of this country, consume public services, and generally enable unscrupulous citizens to take advantage of their plight. Further, the magnitude of this particular population elevates the impact locally.

As if this wasn't insult enough to the metaphorical injury, criminal elements of the neighboring state, use this circumstance in many, many abusive ways. The revenue is a ready-made money laundering tool, the flow of people (in both directions mind you) is perfect concealment for organized criminal interests. And this is no street gang, in this particular instance we are talking about a criminal industry that has already successfully usurped governments before. We may not easily digest that thought, but I assure you, there is a threat via the economics of a black market. Why the hell do you think we manufacture so many guns?

Of course, absolutely NONE of this is the "fault" of the immigrants. In fact, had they the means and opportunity, I'm sure only the criminals would choose not to become citizens and avoid all this hassle.

Cultural:

As a nation, we traditionally welcome any who wish to join our collection of communities. There can always be a place in any society for those who are willing to participate as responsible citizens. We define the terms of that citizenship in an odd variety of ways, but it is nevertheless undeniably a valid option.

We as a society have not forgeten the perils of oppressive persecution, prejudice, and class-ism, that much is evident; it is well that the debate is available to us, because in the end of all things, no government, no religion, no ideology, no external force of governance has been able to defeat that ugly tendency. If we stopped talking about it, the trend would solidify and become institutionalized. Once embedded in the society, it takes a hell of a fight to rid the nation of it - we've seen it before.

Only an implicit mandate of human nature can abolish the notion that all people are equal and thus as deserving of the help we would hope for, were we in the same situation. It's called charity by some. It's not socialistic, it's not aggrandizing in any way - regardless of what politicians tell you, regardless of what the media tells you, regardless of what your religious castes tell you. It is simple cooperative survival.

That's where the ugly sentiments come in. I can't fix those and neither can you. People must decide for themselves to what degree their nations largess should extend. No one person, driven by honor or bias of any kind, should have the say of a nation. No one group, no one so-called party, no corporation. It will only work if a consensus is found. It is the explicit nature of the republic.

Upon these principles, we can neither ignore the problem, nor decide one way or the other, unless we agree that their is a problem. I have yet to hear anyone state the illegal immigration volume is not a problem.

From a cultural perspective, we are not likely to ignore this problem. It's too "in-your-face" for too many tax-payers, all of whom are not comfortable with the notion of such "charity." It is their right to question it. That it's used politically and socially to agitate is unfortunate; but to be expected by those with the most powerful tools of communication at their disposal. There's no lack of sensitivity to the presence of illegal immigrants in this country.

However, as some can easily imagine, and other perhaps no so much, the feeling of living in a world where 'your kind' is scrutinized by the community is distinctly unleasant. It has happened in this country before. Native Americans, the unfortunate slaves, the Catholics, the Irish, the Jews, the Germans, the Japanese, homosexuals, and more recently, those of Middle Eastern descent; all of them have felt the sting of institutionalized bigotry. It is well we should heed history. This law, in its first draft neglected to explicitly address the weakness of human nature and the potential for such abuse to occur. Once it changed, none need fear that a person can use the force of law to discriminate against them without facing consequences. Beyond that, everything else is our first enemy: fear.

I became more confident of the legislation once the issue had become a common debate. It is encouraging that such furor arose, because there are too many Hispanic citizens in this country to indiscriminately allow the window of opportunity for ignorant prejudice to gain yet another foothold in this republic. There are too many targets to expect this element of society to acquiesce to what most would consider such an intrusive stigma as that of illegitimacy.

Social:

What happens within a society, if a group is singled out? They will generally coalesce into a sub-culture, which can be constructive or destructive of the whole. It seems evident to me that we should have had our fill of antagonizing 'groups' of people; it never ends well. But such is human nature, it appears, that grievances against or by individuals are translated socially to a larger group. I'm not scholarly enough to understand why this is. But nevertheless, we see it all the time.

The counter pressure which arises is a raw and naked force, which can lead to the social impetus to correct the deficiency, or the express itself at the whim of charismatic leadership. Sadly, there's never a guarantee that a single leader is of a character which resists the temptation exercise his will alone. That's usually where it starts to fray around the edges, and different factions or strategies arise - it gets messy. It hardly ever has a good effect.

Even in some cases unintentionally, the evident situation and social pressure causes our youths into internalize bias as a norm, they learn to suspect. Again, our enemy raises it's loathsome head: fear.

Political:

Politics is the practice of harnessing bias, fear, and consensus. The first two require no talent.

All of the elements of political theater are structured to use this situation as an opportunity. Opportunity also arises from those who propagate news, since they can attract attention by the skills of directors and writers (much like political theater.)

We must, by now, have learned that political opportunists will use this as a tool to inspire such passions as suit them. They know full well what the majority of the people want to hear, and the message is rather clear, despite political, ideological, or presumptively moral objections: Immigration law must be enforced or it may as well not exist.

The measure, from a political perspective, will be used by any opportunist who can identify a single body of constituents who are disposed one way or the other over the events (So this issue will be kept alive by them.) Don't expect prejudice to disappear as long as we have politicians 'deciding' for us. They have no compunctions about doing whatever they please because the game is rigged and a representative of their 'club' will always be close to the throne, so to speak.

----------------------------------------------------

From my point of view, we really need to understand that it is a justifiable concern for the average Mexican-American citizen. To walk in your community, knowing that who you are is a 'cue' to be scrutinized is a heavy burden to bear.

I know there is prejudice out there, and sadly, it must be beaten back one person at a time (barring either divine inspiration, or cosmic change; or perhaps both.)

Illegal immigrants are a real problem. It must be addressed and confronted with a barrier of some kind. Fences are a fantasy, war is inhumane, and citizen mobilization will prove to be messy and uncontrollable. We have a problem, the solution to which may make this problem a little more manageable. It is no cure, but it is an achievable goal.

One egregious aggravating aspect of this is the crime problem; not in our country, but in Mexico. Many of these people aren't coming to America; they are fleeing Mexico. The crime is that bad.

If we could 'motivate' criminals to 'remove themselves' from our vicinity, a great swath of Mexico would be full of opportunities again. As it stands now they are staring at the sword of Damocles, because their corruption and crime issues are growing, not shrinking. Once their done there.... where will they go? Mexico needs its own modern-day version of Elliot Ness.

I will never begrudge someone the apprehension of bias. I have learned it is a constant companion of mankind... so far. There is no denying it was losing ground, but now it just seems, status quo.... great for the political or religious zealots, not so much for a Puerto Rican boy.

Ignorance of fear is a terrible flaw in our 'programmed' society. Our culture resists it, our integration of ideologies cannot tolerate it. We must recognize when fear is being used. Even if it is being used for good, because fear, like fire, both consumes and spreads throughout a community. It serves itself.




I haven't the foggiest idea if anyone will read all of this. But I had to 'purge' so to speak. If you stuck it through I applaud you're patience. I know I am verbose. Don't bother to tell me.


Best to you all, always.

Be well.

MM.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by Maxmars]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire

My interpretation of this law is if law enforcement sees any Latino walking down the street it is there duty to check there papers.



You said you were still lurking, so I'm still replying.

That interpretation is wrong. Many people have that misinterpretation, and that is what is creating all the backlash against this extremely necessary law. It is absolutely critical to the security of this nation that this rumor be quashed and immigration laws be enforced!

In fact, here is some text from the law itself:



THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES CITIZENS.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:34 AM
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Holy crap! We have a border issue with Mexico and so this issue that the majority just happens to be Mexicans illegally invading our country (Mexico duh?) is now a race issue...geez...

Ok I can run with that.. GET THE DAMN ILLEGAL MEXICANS OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!! Not a hard concept to understand…

Does that make me a racist or just an American?



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:36 AM
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sonoranalliance.com...
Just to add to the mix
Racist Or National ID



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


I said I wasn't gonna post in this thread, but this post is one of the top five posts I have ever read on ATS

That would be a Way Above Top Secret Vote for you..



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


Maxmars, I read the WHOLE POST
I'm giving myself a star.
Good post easy to read.
I agree 100%.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by guohua]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:43 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 

Your back?
I thought after you made me your FOE.
You would be just lurking.
Come on back, post, we miss ya

Besides, Clinton is a AS$ and won't understand what a real law suite looks like. There is no way Obama ( dear learder ) and his mental midgets can when.
OK, I'll set you off the deep in, how about Jan Brewer for President 2012?



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Holy crap! We have a border issue with Mexico and so this issue that the majority just happens to be Mexicans illegally invading our country (Mexico duh?) is now a race issue...geez...

Ok I can run with that.. GET THE DAMN ILLEGAL MEXICANS OUT OF OUR COUNTRY!!! Not a hard concept to understand…

Does that make me a racist or just an American?

With 60% of Americans, your just another American.
With the Progressives and Liberals and a few Independents on here, your a Racist.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 



From my point of view, we really need to understand that it is a justifiable concern for the average Mexican-American citizen. To walk in your community, knowing that who you are is a 'cue' to be scrutinized is a heavy burden to bear.


Thank you.


Fences are a fantasy, war is inhumane, and citizen mobilization will prove to be messy and uncontrollable. We have a problem, the solution to which may make this problem a little more manageable. It is no cure, but it is an achievable goal.


Well written post.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by guohua

With 60% of Americans, your just another American.
With the Progressives and Liberals and a few Independents on here, your a Racist.


If there was 15 to 25 million illegal purple ump pas from the Charlie Chocolate Factory driving our states into bankruptcy I would say get the purple midgets out of our country too. Hell my wife is brown and my kids are half brown and I don’t care.


[edit on 19-6-2010 by Xtrozero]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 01:13 AM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 



Illegal immigrants are a real problem. It must be addressed and confronted with a barrier of some kind.



That's what people need to understand, it's not about Mexicans, it's about an overabundance of illegal immigrants. We can't just ignore the problem as it is having a great detrimental impact on our country. This is just one state's way of attempting to find a solution to a problem that they can no longer tolerate.

Edit for grammar

[edit on 6/19/2010 by chise61]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by Maxmars
 


Excellent post. It is an inspiration to us all. I hope it doesn't get removed for being to long....lol..... Thank you.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 05:11 AM
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I think let arizona handle their immigration issue,,,,

Im glad Arizona has the guts to finally start doing something!!!

Politicians tread esay on this because they want the votes from the "legal" mexicans who are here ,,who have 10s of thousand+ illeagal relatives here living with them.


A lot of these illeagals are taking jobs away,,violent street gangs,crime,wreking havic on everything..

even the good honest ones are a problem,,,they send all their money they make back to mexico so more of their illeagal reliatives can come here.

Im open and happy to have a variety of diversity in our culture,,,but not WHOLE dam cities of them...

Its way outta hand and the Feds dont do crap and now Obama/Clinton are pulling this crap.

The US has got to get tuff on enforcing immigration.!



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars

I haven't the foggiest idea if anyone will read all of this. But I had to 'purge' so to speak.


As long as you are now feeling good thats what counts.
We are damned by your faint praise and PC writing.
The NWO loves you.




[edit on 19-6-2010 by RRokkyy]



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by RRokkyy

As long as you are now feeling good thats what counts.
We are damned by your faint praise and PC writing.
The NWO loves you.


[edit on 19-6-2010 by RRokkyy]


Ouch! That stung.

Respectfully,

In what way am I serving that agenda? Please tell me, because it is a collection of premises with which I do not agree.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by RRokkyy
 


I have read more than just The Trial by Kafka, and it is always the same with that guy. Whether it be The Metamorphoses, or the simple fable he tells about a rat in a maze, the outcome is always the same, which is a pointless life that culminates in death. I admire Kafka's brevity and style of simplicity, but do not at all admire his message of futility, any more than I admire your message of futility. If you wish to be nothing more than a cockroach, a rat, or a dog, that is your choice.
snip
it is in the struggle that we find our happiness. Surrender is not struggle. If you wish to surrender, do so, but don't think for a second that humanity will admire you for such cowardice. No myths will be told about Rrokkyy if Rrokkyy's purpose in life was to surrender.

All I see here is surrender.
Talk is cheap.

If struggle was happiness then the more one struggled the happier one would become.There is no evidence of that. Intuitively one knows happiness is not a struggle.Happiness as Bliss is surrender, or more precisely the sacrifice of self attention. Jesus taught the surrender or sacrifice of the heart. That is the myth that the Western mind has great difficulty grasping. And as you correctly surmise the myth of surrender is mostly forgotten. It has been replaced by the myth of belief as the way to heaven. There is no cowardice in spiritual surrender. Krishna said to Arjuna,Remember (surrender to)me,and Fight. Action (fight) is free of the struggle when
done with Understanding of the nature of Life as Sacrifice.

Kafka saw the futility in a Mans life but not necessarily in Reality Itself.

On Parables
by Franz Kafka

Many complain that the words of the wise are always merely parables and of no use in daily life, which is the only life we have. When the sage says: "Go over," he does not mean that we should cross over to some actual place, which we could do anyhow if the labor were worth it; he means some fabulous yonder, something unknown to us, something too that he cannot designate more precisely, and therefore cannot help us here in the very least. All these parables really set out to say merely that the incomprehensible is incomprehensible, and we know that already. But the cares we have to struggle with every day: that is a different matter.

Concerning this a man once said: Why such reluctance? If you only followed the parables you yourselves would become parables and with that rid yourself of all your daily cares.

Another said: I bet that is also a parable.

The first said: You have won.

The second said: But unfortunately only in parable.

The first said: No, in reality: in parable you have lost.

The Truth is not a parable.
Only the Lie is a parable.

The Truth is explained without parable here for those who dare:
www.beezone.com...



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
Once here, non-citizens routinely move wealth out of this country,


...so do citizens, especially the wealthy...


Originally posted by Maxmars
a criminal industry that has already successfully usurped governments before.


...the correct terminology is criminal industrial administration (cia) - and - yes, thats their biggest job (usurping the governments of other countries)...


Originally posted by Maxmars
As a nation, we traditionally welcome any who wish to join our collection of communities.


...historically - most white americans have not welcomed non-whites into their community whether the non-whites are born americans or legal immigrants or mandated citizens or not... the indigenous were welcomed to be entertainment or compost... blacks were welcomed to be beasts of burden and, then, the scapegoat for criminal activity... chinese immigrants were welcomed to do laundry and build railroads... japanese immigrants and americans of japanese descent found out in ww2 that being an american citizen means nothing if you're not the right kind of white (even if you are christian)... when folks were fleeing cuba and subsequently took over miami, white floridians didnt appreciate that even a little bit and many still gripe about it... the same happened when refugees from thailand, vietnam, laos and cambodia were coming here to escape the horror that we called "spreading democracy"... happened again with haitians... happened again with people san salvadore, nicaragua, panama, chile (etc) when their countries fell into chaos because of the direct and intentional actions of our cia and military industrial complex...


Originally posted by Maxmars
We as a society have not forgeten the perils of oppressive persecution, prejudice, and class-ism, that much is evident;


...maybe i need to wear your glasses because i cant see that since our government is still delivering oppression to non-whites and/or non-christians all over the world...


Originally posted by Maxmars
I became more confident of the legislation once the issue had become a common debate.


...the original legislation was racist - then, when good folks started yellin' about it, brewer realized "that bad boy was a little too overt - need to be sneakier about this" and had the no racial profiling allowed tidbit put in (a pathetic attempt at pacifying those who believe that how a law is penned is how it is enforced)...


Originally posted by Maxmars
It is encouraging that such furor arose, because there are too many Hispanic citizens in this country to indiscriminately allow the window of opportunity for ignorant prejudice to gain yet another foothold in this republic. There are too many targets to expect this element of society to acquiesce to what most would consider such an intrusive stigma as that of illegitimacy.


...agreed - but - if this legislation is really about protecting the citizens of arizona and not just the white citizens, then why hasnt jan brewer and her cohorts cracked down on all the white supremacist groups that have long been causing trouble along the border?... why hasnt she told the WHOLE truth about crime in arizona?... there are hells angels type motorcycle gangs and neo-nazis who regularly have "boot parties" (kick a "hispanic looking" person to death), in addition to running drugs, prostitution, methlabs, theft rings... wheres her condemnation of that scum?... lots of wealthy and upper middle class whites in arizona employ illegal immigrants to raise their kids, cook their meals, clean their home, keep their yards... where brewer's condemnation of them?... if she mentions any of the above, its lost under tons of intentional misdirection that blame all the woes of arizona on illegal immigrants...


Originally posted by Maxmars
From my point of view, we really need to understand that it is a justifiable concern for the average Mexican-American citizen. To walk in your community, knowing that who you are is a 'cue' to be scrutinized is a heavy burden to bear.


...agreed - and - the same is true for ndns, blacks, asians, middle easterners, people from central or south american countries and non-christians regardless of ethnicity...


Originally posted by Maxmars
Illegal immigrants are a real problem.


...they're being used as a scapegoat... the criminals who allowed the illegal immigrant situation to perpetuate to the degree it is now are americans of means (wealth) - not poor mexicans, not mexican drug cartels, not the mexican government... the legislation claims it will penalize americans who hire illegal immigrants but i'll believe that when i see it - because - no law has ever stopped corruption - because - everyone at the top is corrupt to the bone...


Originally posted by Maxmars
We have a problem, the solution to which may make this problem a little more manageable. It is no cure, but it is an achievable goal.


...americans will lose MORE rights over this and i'm not so sure that wasnt the plan from the get-go...


Originally posted by Maxmars
I will never begrudge someone the apprehension of bias. I have learned it is a constant companion of mankind... so far. There is no denying it was losing ground, but now it just seems, status quo.... great for the political or religious zealots, not so much for a Puerto Rican boy.


...was it really losing ground or did it just seem that way due to linear thinking?... or maybe we wanted to believe social injustices would become a thing of the past because, then, all of our long ago protests against the establishment would actually have influenced the future, rather than just the moment...




posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire


I agree with the federal government suing Arizona as I feel this law is rooted in racism and racial profiling.

On the other hand Im for state rights, so Arizona should sue the federal government for not enforcing current laws, but then Arizona would have to prove damage. This is easier said than done..

we will see

www.washingtonpost.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


I guess the dead rancher doesn't prove damage.

How about a sheriff shot by an AK-47 ?

Some girls slaughtered like cattle ?

Being named the kidnap capital of the US ?

Define damage ?

I think Arizona may be over reacting, but that tends to happen
when the ppl that are suppose to do their jobs under react.

This is just step 1 in a sheet-storm most ppl do not even know
is brewing along the border.

You think this is bad, this is a joke, the bad stuff is yet to come.

Good Luck to you all !



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
Originally posted by RRokkyy

As long as you are now feeling good thats what counts.
We are damned by your faint praise and PC writing.
The NWO loves you.





Ouch! That stung.

Respectfully,

In what way am I serving that agenda? Please tell me, because it is a collection of premises with which I do not agree.



Once Upon a Time












[edit on 19-6-2010 by RRokkyy]



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