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Clinton says Ariz. to be sued over immigration law, but Justice Dept. won

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posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


I can't give you an answer to that because I don't know enough about it. But as soon as I have the time I'll look at the information that's out there. Since it seems to be something that upsets you, maybe you should try to find the answer to that question.




posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:55 AM
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I say, let them sue. I think Arizona has the legal right to enforce this law and it is backed up by the U.S. Constitution.

If Obama is so stupid that he thinks he can thwart the 10th Amendment, then he's got another thing coming. The Justice Department people who sided with Obama must be investigated because obviously they are in cahoots.

If this investigation is conducted fairly Arizona should win.

I found this:
From: www.dispatch.com... =twitter

" Arizona law satisfies 10th Amendment
Monday, May 31, 2010 02:51 AM

I respond to the Wednesday letter “Ends don't justify means in Arizona,” from Nickolas D. Owen, who tried to make the case that the Arizona immigration law violates the U.S. Constitution.

He tried to tie the law to the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution by saying it is an unlawful search and seizure. Unfortunately, Owen is completely wrong.

First, the Arizona law states, and Owen noted, that “for any lawful contact made by a law-enforcement official ... .” Owen said this would allow a police officer to ask for “papers.” What he overlooks is that under lawful contact by a law-enforcement officer, that officer has the right to demand identification from legal residents and aliens, as well. For some reason, Owens believes that it would be unconstitutional to treat illegal aliens the same as legal residents and citizens.

However, the main error in the letter is his failure to grasp the Bill of Rights. He tried to paint the new law as violating the Fourth Amendment, which it does not. Owen and most of the law's detractors unfortunately have forgotten that there are 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights, and the 10th is the one that applies here: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.” The 10th Amendment was created specifically for situations such as this. Arizona has the right to defend its residents. "

[edit on 18-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by LDragonFire
 


I can't give you an answer to that because I don't know enough about it. But as soon as I have the time I'll look at the information that's out there. Since it seems to be something that upsets you, maybe you should try to find the answer to that question.


I have, and btw last year I was a supported of this whole immigration debate, but in Aug I stopped watching TV and my views on this and some other things have changed..

I viewed all Illegals as dangerous event though I have worked with many and saw them struggling to learn English and was proud watching them progress in there efforts... These were some of the hardest working people I have worked with, but I was still suspicious of them because of the media and this illegal debate...'

my views have changed.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire

Now I have admitted the federal government does not enforce its own laws, and I have already stated if Arizona can prove damages it should sue!! However this new Arizona law seems to be racial profiling to me.....



What new law? You have passed over the fact that this law is NOT a new law so many times now. The only thing new about it is that it is now a STATE law as well as a FEDERAL law.

Quote for us now the wording in this law which allows for racial profiling. Don't just say it does it, give us some quotes from the law that have formed your opinion that is racist.

You oppose this law on just one issue, the issue of racism. Yet you have made multiple racist comments yourself (Telling Americans to give control of the country to your race, and saying that you are waiting for the country to be "Sioux'd") and yet you have not been able to demonstrate how this law is racist. Nor have you been able to demonstrate any real understanding of this law or what it does. How, then, do you come to the wild and inaccurate conclusions that you keep parroting before us?



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


They will sue and they will win, because the federal government and the supreme court caters to corporations and industry.

Do you think they care what you think?

oh btw I think the civil war clarified the state rights issue clearly.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
The point is they [Canadians] still can come upto the border and receive a permit but Mexicans can't.......These permits can only be renewed a limited number of times this is the issue your friend is facing....

SO Why can't Mexicans do this????????????????????????


Did you bother reading everything on the Peace Bridge page you linked? It applies to people in high level positions working for a Canadian company with strong affiliation with a US company. A migrant farm worker from Canada couldn't do this.

www.grasmick.com... will answer a lot of your questions.
(The link above is from the same LAW FIRM you linked as Peacebridge.)

[edit on 6/18/2010 by abecedarian]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:04 AM
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What happens if AZ wins.????????

Even if AZ loses they have other way to use the laws to get rid of illegals.

Or if they lose does that make the US government responsible for all the cost of illegals.
This was the prime reason the law was passed in the first place.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:14 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 


Well maybe you're surrounded by a different breed. I live in a sanctuary city
and here they make no attempt to learn the langauge, or follow our laws. I'm sick of them being above the laws that I have to follow. I have to have a drivers licence, but they don't, I have to have insurance, but they don't, they laugh at our laws and I'm sick of it. They send half, if not more of their money back to Mexico, that severely hurts our economy. We pay for their kids schooling and health care, and food stamps, while they work for cash and pay no taxes, that severely hurts our economy. I want a damn job, and I don't want to have to learn a foreign langauge in my own country to get one either.

If you want a bunch of lawless people coming into this country, that's you're right, just as it's my right not to want them here. And I didn't form my opinions by watching TV, I formed them by living through it, sanctuary cities go through the same things that the border towns do.

If our country wants to give people a chance, fine, but only after every American has a damn job.

I'm tired and ranting, so I'm done until I am rested and clear headed.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by abecedarian
 

It clearly states on the link "TN for Mexicans also (no expedited border procedures)."

here is the page for TN status
TN NAFTA Home Page: A U.S. Immigration Permit For Canadians

just a few items listed from the link:

Introduction to TN Status
The Peace Bridge---A Main Source of TN NAFTA Activity
Peace Bridge: Focus of TN activity.

The availability of TN (Trade NAFTA) status is the most dramatic immigration benefit of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

The new provisions of NAFTA pertain to Canadian and Mexican citizen temporary visitors, treaty traders, investors, temporary workers, and professionals.

The immigration-related provisions of NAFTA are very similar to those expressed in the prior United States-Canada Free Trade Agreement (FTA/CFTA), which went into force on January 1, 1989. All FTA provisions were suspended when the NAFTA went into force. The NAFTA provisions covered the same non-immigrant classifications as the old FTA: B-1, E, L-1 , and Professionals. Under the old FTA, the Free Trade Professional designation was known as TC (Trade Canada), while currently the designation is TN (Trade NAFTA Professional).

This page is only about the TN for Canadians .


As for only professionals it also says this:


Another advantage of TN-l status is that it can he obtained quickly. The INS grants these visas right at the border, so there is no waiting period for approval and no petition to file in advance. In contrast, permanent resident applicants can wait years for their status, and waits for H-lB status can take six months or more.

A little-known bonus is also attached to TN status. Under TN Status, household help ("personal and domestic servants") can enter the United States as tourists and can work for the applicant. No visa is required, just a simple employment authorization card. To qualify, the person must be either:

1. Someone who worked for you in Canada at least one year prior to the date you entered the United States, or
2. Someone who worked for you for any period of time and you can show you regularly employed any personal or domestic help over a period of several years immediately prior to coming to the United States, and the employee you want to bring with you has at least one year's experience in the field.


Just saying I find it interesting that it appears to be easy for Canadians to come here and work but almost impossible for Mexicans.

This link also lists the job fields its a interesting read.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by mattifikation


What new law? You have passed over the fact that this law is NOT a new law so many times now. The only thing new about it is that it is now a STATE law as well as a FEDERAL law.


It is indeed a new state law.


Quote for us now the wording in this law which allows for racial profiling. Don't just say it does it, give us some quotes from the law that have formed your opinion that is racist.


The author of this law.

There are some things about state Sen. Russell Pearce, the author of Arizona's new police-state immigration law, that Greta Van Susteren and all the other Fox anchors who've had him on this past week aren't telling you.

Indeed, they let him just come on and spew misleading nonsense, as he did last night on On the Record, telling Van Susteren that the law only "takes the handcuffs off" for law enforcement officers and "allows" them to arrest suspected illegal immigrants. Actually, it requires them to.

Well, we mentioned previously that Pearce has a colorful background involving the white-supremacist far right, including dalliances -- like his close pal Sheriff Joe Arpaio -- with neo-Nazis.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Profiling Arizona legislator Russell Pearce: Author of immigration law is pals with noted neo-Nazi


You oppose this law on just one issue, the issue of racism. Yet you have made multiple racist comments yourself (Telling Americans to give control of the country to your race, and saying that you are waiting for the country to be "Sioux'd") and yet you have not been able to demonstrate how this law is racist. Nor have you been able to demonstrate any real understanding of this law or what it does. How, then, do you come to the wild and inaccurate conclusions that you keep parroting before us?


So sue me!!
I have already stated how its easy to be racist. Its also easy for the population to be manipulated....



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:36 AM
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reply to post by mattifikation
 


What the administration is hoping for here is that the Arizona law will be found unconstitutional. Then the Federal law will have to be found unconstitutional as well. Then the Democrats get millions upon millions of illegals who will vote for them for the rest of their lives. Remember that I said it first.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by mattifikation
 


What the administration is hoping for here is that the Arizona law will be found unconstitutional. Then the Federal law will have to be found unconstitutional as well. Then the Democrats get millions upon millions of illegals who will vote for them for the rest of their lives. Remember that I said it first.


The Democrats already have millions who will vote for them their entire lives, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Latino vote goes to Democrats. Since it seems like Latino automatically equals illegals.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
You Doc may not support this issue based on race, but truthfully its so much easier to be a racist and I feel the GOP and the Right Conservative movement is racist at its core, they are anti Illegal immigration [Mexican] anti Gay and this issue is just a way to divide us further...

Well, my personal feelings about Mexican illegal aliens, in particular, are pretty *snip* biased. See, I'm originally from southeast Texas, and I observed racism as a little boy (a very smart little boy) growing up in the midst of the Civil Rights movement, which is back when racism meant something.

It meant you could get your ass killed for the color of your skin. Not like today, where we play semantic games to avoid uttering "certain words" in politically-correct conversation.

Back in the day, racism was a death warrant. Today, it's a talking point.

My point is, if you're in your twenties or thirties and you're a crusader against racism, you don't know what racism IS.

You can Google it up and look at all the scary pictures of lynchings and church burnings and so forth, but I can guarantee you that seeing those images and hearing those recordings don't automatically make you knowledgeable of that down-home racism that us elders recall.

Yeah. There is VALUE in the observations of the elders.

My family moved to Houston in the 1970s, when there was still a visible KKK presence, not only in the community, but actually on the police force. And the Houston city police were some mean *snip*— like, homicidal, okay? Make no mistake, they were a-killin' people.

So, yeah, I matured in a city that was mired in REAL racism. By comparison, the racism of today is so mild, it's like a reality show.

BTW, my oldest sister was kidnapped and raped by a Mexican illegal alien back in the 1960s, so there's a familial aspect to my bias.

WHERE DO I COME DOWN on the illegal alien issue? I want the border secure, I want these 20 million *snip* Mexican illegal aliens deported, and I don't want their asses back on my doorstep. No, you cannot convince me that they are vital to our economy. No, you cannot convince me that they are not draining our economy, harming the job market, and *snip* things up royally all across the USA.

These aren't exactly Einsteins sneaking across the border. Hell no, they're high-school dropouts, they're not top-tier. They're coming here to avail themselves of all the FREE *snip* and goodie programs in America. All ya have to do is sneak in, knock up a chick and bingo — anchor baby. Send me the goodies!

Do I sound racist? No, I sound like somebody who is wondering *snip* is WRONG with our federal government, and why can't they secure the border?

I know what racism is, but what's going on in Arizona isn't racism. It's SECURITY.

— Doc Velocity

please don't circumvent the automatic censors.
Thank you.





[edit on 6/18/2010 by Doc Velocity]

[edit on 18-6-2010 by gallopinghordes]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:19 AM
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well frankly I wish the Obama
administration would get their
story straight.

Hillary says here they're gonna sue

and in this article last week, ICE says they WILL
process AZ illegals.

liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com...



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Well, my personal feelings about Mexican illegal aliens, in particular, are pretty goddamned biased. See, I'm originally from southeast Texas, and I observed racism as a little boy (a very smart little boy) growing up in the midst of the Civil Rights movement, which is back when racism meant something.

Perhaps I judged you incorrectly.

Well, my personal feelings about Mexican illegal aliens, in particular, are pretty goddamned biased. See, I'm originally from southeast Texas, and I observed racism as a little boy (a very smart little boy) growing up in the midst of the Civil Rights movement, which is back when racism meant something.


Racism never went away, its possible its more civilized than it once was, but its still a everyday part of all our lives, unless of course you live in a one race community and have a one race job....


It meant you could get your ass killed for the color of your skin. Not like today, where we play semantic games to avoid uttering "certain words" in politically-correct conversation.


Sorta like being Latino in America and people automatically assuming your a illegal???


Back in the day, racism was a death warrant. Today, it's a talking point.


I don't see any difference today, Im over 40 btw.


My point is, if you're in your twenties or thirties and you're a crusader against racism, you don't know what racism IS.


I have friends that would punch you in the mouth for making a statement like that, guess all the racist crimes and lawsuits won since the 1970's were not racist at all.


You can Google it up and look at all the scary pictures of lynchings and church burnings and so forth, but I can guarantee you that seeing those images and hearing those recordings don't automatically make you knowledgeable of that down-homeracism that us elders recall.


These things continue to this day, their are still church burnings and many racist groups in America....Your acting like this went away????


Yeah. There is VALUE in the observations of the elders.

Ya know its one thing to be old, its quite another thing to be old and bitter.


My family moved to Houston in the 1970s, when there was still a visible KKK presence, not only in the community, but actually on the police force. And the Houston city police were some mean motherfekkers — like, homicidal, okay? Make no mistake, they were a-killin' people.


Im sure it continues to this day, but people learn to be more private with there beliefs....


So, yeah, I matured in a city that was mired in REAL racism. By comparison, the racism of today is so mild, it's like a reality show.


And just how many places on Earth is ethnic cleansing going on? Africa, the middle East, Uzbekistan and countless other areas....


BTW, my oldest sister was kidnapped and raped by a Mexican illegal alien back in the 1960s, so there's a familial aspect to my bias.


Sorry for this tragedy, but you can't judge a whole people on this...A certain percentage of all populations are criminal.


WHERE DO I COME DOWN on the illegal alien issue? I want the border secure, I want these 20 million fekking Mexican illegal aliens deported, and I don't want their asses back on my doorstep. No, you cannot convince me that they are vital to our economy. No, you cannot convince me that they are not draining our economy, harming the job market, and fekking things up royally all across the ISA.


I most likely could not convince you that they are people wishing for a better life for themselves and there families... that blows


These aren't exactly Einsteins sneaking across the border. Hell no, they're high-school dropouts, they're not top-tier. They're coming here to avail themselves of all the FREE SHlT and goodie programs in America. All ya have to do is sneak in, knock up a chick and bingo — anchor baby. Send me the goodies!


on top of it all there Latinos, right???? and this makes them bad????


Do I sound racist? No, I sound like somebody who is wondering WTF is WRONG with our federal government, and why can't they secure the border?


After you chill out come back and read what you have written.. maybe prey first. Anyway the fed doesn't serve our wishes they serve corporate wishes and they wish these PEOPLEto carry the label of illegals so they can profit from it and further divide us...


I know what racism is, but what's going on in Arizona isn't racism. It's SECURITY.


I disagree and your posts did nothing to change that.









[edit on 18-6-2010 by LDragonFire]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:38 AM
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Well said Doc...well said


This racism card has been played now so many times that it really does not mean anything anymore. People are using this now as a means to further their own agendas when things are not going their way. Oh boo hoo.

As has been stated numerous times on this board, the AZ law mirrors the Federal law. So how is it unconstitutional? Further, if the Feds would do their job in securing the border then we would not be having this discussion. But then again, there would likely still be whining and bellyaching about how we are keeping people out of our country who seek to enter ILLEGALLY. Once again boo hoo.

Just for the record illegal means illegal. It does not mean someone is trying to do the right thing and follow the established procedures to enter our country. It means they are circumventing those procedures, which tells me they have nothing but contempt for this country. And please do no try to tell me those laws are just for the Mexicans. Ask anyone whose ancestors entered through Ellis Island and they will tell you they had to jump through hoops to enter, and they are glad they did.

Before it is said that I know nothing of racism, let me add that my wife is half Cherokee whose great great grandparents were herded on the trail of tears and if you think my views on this lean towards throwing all of the illegals out of here on their behinds is radical, then you should hear her views on this.

In closing, I think Hillary needs to do her job as Sec of State as this is an internal matter that we and NOT her buddy Calderon shall take care of.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:46 AM
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Us is screwed up. The government is turning their people against each other based on various stuff. Good luck there in your country. Its almost everywhere in almost all countries. America is based on absolute greed.

The same thing they tricked the common people to follow and believe as well. America is like shylock in the Merchant of Venice. People if you are going to follow the PTB plan which you are doing , then Its GAME OVER. I for one believe any people should be able to move anywhere in the earth. This is all madness. If the federal government in your country is good it will change everything. There is no fault here because of immigrants really.

Follow closely. This is all done by 'THEM" with a purpose. Dont increase this hatred. Its good for noone except TPTB.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:54 AM
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reply to post by LDragonFire
 
So you quote the LAW FIRM's website again; a law firm located near the appropriate facilities and as such is in a position to perform the service of expediting the documents.

From the government's mouth:
travel.state.gov...
www.state.gov...

...
B. The alien must meet the specific requirements,
education and/or experience, etc. listed in the annex
related to that particular profession. While the list
originally included professional activities included under
the former H-1 standards as professions, it has been
extended to include additional professions. However, with
rare exception each profession requires a baccalaureate
degree as an entry-level requirement. If a baccalaureate
is indeed required, experience cannot be substituted for
that degree. In some professions, alternative criteria to
a bachelor''s degree is listed, and sometimes experience
and criteria are required in addition to the degree. The
list is occasionally expanded upon agreement of all NAFTA
parties.

9 FAM 41.59 N3.2 Employment required

The alien must engage in prearranged business activity for
a U.S. or foreign employer. But self-employment is not an
option under the category. If the alien seeks self-
employment, the alien should pursue that business under
the Treaty Trader or Investor Visa classification, or
another visa category. Evidence of engagement by a U.S.
employer(s) or entity(ies) to engage in prearranged
business activities at a professional level is necessary
to accord "TN" classification.

...

N4.3 Required documentation:

Both nationalities will have to submit the following
documentation:
(1) proof of citizenship; (note 6)
(2) evidence of an offer of employment by submission of
employment letter in one of the professional occupations
which requires the education and/or experience listed in
appendix 1603.d.1 of NAFTA chapter 16 (note 7)
(3) evidence that the applicant meets the minimum education
and/or work experience requirements set forth in appendix
1603.d.1];




You should go look up the list of approved TN status occupations and the associated education requirements.
www.worldtradelaw.net... Scroll to page 13 of the PDF for that list.

They are all professions requiring some sort of degree or accreditation.
"Migrant farm worker" isn't on the list, and neither is any "job American's won't do".

Canadians had the ability prior to NAFTA to enter the US for work purposes (TC status) whereas Mexico had no similar arrangement. You can't say "NAFTA allows Canadians but not Mexicans...." The requirements for work-related entry WERE different prior to NAFTA and remained subsequent to.

So, now I'm done.

[edit on 6/18/2010 by abecedarian]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by chise61
The law has nothing to do with racism, or racial profiling. Have you read it ? If you've read it and see anything in there that condones racial profiling, please show me.

You must not be aware of how the Mexicans came to be in the first place. As far as their right to be here, they lost a war and sold their land and any rights to it long ago, end of story.



see it on paper is one thing, but in a real situation you would have to ask every mexican living in arizona for papers even if they are legal. If I get sick of every cop saying where is your papers I sure as hell would be pissed. Then I would retaliate and make a shirt stating, "I have shown my legal papers. why hasn't Obama shown his?"






posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 08:00 AM
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This administration is just sad. I did not vote for them, but I never really thought thatit mattered tOo much who is president so I still supported obama. I can not wait to get this guy out of office. The elections can not come any sooner.

I've posted many articles and written research on illegals and they all say how much illegal immigration hurts america as a whole. As a finance major its really not hard to understand this.

My only question is if it were white people would the dems and the liberals support the illegal migration of them in massive numbers? Just speculation, but probably not.



 
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