G4S Wackenhut blocking media and protesters in AL

Seems to me that this issue is pretty simple... If a cop says you can't do something, then obey his order while you determine if it's a lawful order or not. If private security says you can't do something, but you're not on property that they have the authority to control, then they're not any different than any other Joe Blow who's spouting BS... I would walk right past them, and let the real police intervene if they want to try to escalate things. The key question here is: do they have authority to control it? If they're hired by BP, then I'd have some pretty big doubts. If they're hired by the city, county, state, etc., then they probably have their bases covered.

If the security happens to be armed, that actually works in your favor... Carrying a weapon is a huge legal liability, and if they're smart about it, they will be more timid than unarmed security guards. They cannot use, or threaten the use of, lethal force (or usually any force for that matter) unless you are posing an immediate physical threat to someone, or at least breaking certain laws. It depends on the laws of the state in question, but in many places, the unjustified drawing of a weapon, or even placing a hand on it, can very easily get a person busted for felony menacing with a deadly weapon. And to add onto that, depending on the circumstances and state laws, if someone is doing that to you, you may be justified to defend yourself with the same amount of force.

But acting like an idiot and shoving cameras in people's faces is just really lame and stupid. Know your rights and stand up for them, but don't be a pretentious jackass about it; being a nuisance only serves to make the rest of us look bad, and it potentially gives authorities a reason to create restrictions.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Do they not let groups of volunteers walk the beachs and help clean up?

If they dont then I really dont understand why not,

When the Scottish oil spill happened ( it was a tanker not a rig) volunteers from all over the place started walking the beaches in groups collecting endangered wildlife and cleaning the beachs.

whats the problem? you would think they would be crying out for people to help in any small way they can.

The problem I see is that the free help from locals would quickly be followed by a flood of lawsuits from those same people. They would go out there knowing the risks, get sick or injured because of their own actions, and then try to sue BP over it. This country's legal system is notorious for such nonsense lawsuits. Even the most frivolous lawsuits would cost BP money in legal defense fees.



[edit on 17-6-2010 by TurboDC4]

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[edit on 17-6-2010 by TurboDC4]

[edit on 17-6-2010 by TurboDC4]

Proper jurisdiction is local law enforcement (municipal and county), then state law enforcement, then federal (national guard and so forth).

Private security companies have zero jurisdiction unless they are duly deputized by county and I doubt that they have been.

That is what is ticking off a lot of people, the improper goon squads. That's what these private security guys are, folks! What is happening to this country is that we're slipping into corporate rule of all things. We cannot let that go unchecked because it just so happens to be fascist!

[edit on 17-6-2010 by switching yard]

Originally posted by switching yard

Private security companies have zero jurisdiction unless they are duly deputized by county and I doubt that they have been.

Don't need to be 'deputized' unless they are going to be given powers of arrest. 'jurisdiction' otherwise revolves around authorization by the controlling authority, and involves the ability to detain (not arrest, subtle, but legal, difference), and turn the offenders over to sworn officers, who then place them under arrest.

Edit to add: I can attest to private contract security having been 'deputized' at the federal level, so it DOES happen, but you are correct in this case, they haven't been deputized. You can tell, because had they been deputized, they would also be armed.



[edit on 2010/6/17 by nenothtu]

Ladies and Gentlemen. We are at a crossroads in history. There are so many things happening all at the same time, all over the world, its hard to focus on the worst one, its all becoming a big blur. The Oil catastrophy, Our economic calamity and the resultant unemployment, catastrophic tornados and killer flash floods, people being dispossesed from their homes. Shall I go on? The Question is, what can we do as good, helping citizens to ease the pain of those that are suffering right now as a result of these calamaties. We have to ask ourselves, How can I help? no matter how insignificant that help might appear to be. For instance, do you know any families that have lost their house because of recent forclosure. ARE THEY HUNGRY? Feed Them. Are They cold? Clothe them. If you live in a tornado area and you know famies that had their house destroyed, donate household items to them. If they need a place to stay. offer them some of your space and comfort them. WE ARE OUR BROTHERS KEEPER. Never forget that.

Ladies and Gentlemen. We are at a crossroads in history. There are so many things happening all at the same time, all over the world, its hard to focus on the worst one, its all becoming a big blur. The Oil catastrophy, Our economic calamity and the resultant unemployment, catastrophic tornados and killer flash floods, people being dispossesed from their homes. Shall I go on? The Question is, what can we do as good, helping citizens to ease the pain of those that are suffering right now as a result of these calamaties. We have to ask ourselves, How can I help? no matter how insignificant that help might appear to be. For instance, do you know any families that have lost their house because of recent forclosure. ARE THEY HUNGRY? Feed Them. Are They cold? Clothe them. If you live in a tornado area and you know famies that had their house destroyed, donate household items to them. If they need a place to stay. offer them some of your space and comfort them. WE ARE OUR BROTHERS KEEPER. Never forget that.

Originally posted by TurboDC4

If the security happens to be armed, that actually works in your favor... Carrying a weapon is a huge legal liability, and if they're smart about it, they will be more timid than unarmed security guards. They cannot use, or threaten the use of, lethal force (or usually any force for that matter) unless you are posing an immediate physical threat to someone, or at least breaking certain laws. It depends on the laws of the state in question, but in many places, the unjustified drawing of a weapon, or even placing a hand on it, can very easily get a person busted for felony menacing with a deadly weapon. And to add onto that, depending on the circumstances and state laws, if someone is doing that to you, you may be justified to defend yourself with the same amount of force.

They can use whatever level of force escalation is necessary to overcome the particular threat presented, and secure their AO. Deadly force is only a last resort against a deadly threat, but 'walking right past them' can result in a tussel and detention pending arrest, possibly for trespassing, certainly for assault, and possibly for assault and battery, depending on how strident you're willing to make it. I didn't carry handcuffs because I liked shiny things, and I NEVER let one get away without at least an assault charge. If the officer is any good at all, they'll have to assault him to get through him.

But acting like an idiot and shoving cameras in people's faces is just really lame and stupid. Know your rights and stand up for them, but don't be a pretentious jackass about it; being a nuisance only serves to make the rest of us look bad, and it potentially gives authorities a reason to create restrictions.

Exactly! If you think someone should behave in a civil manner towards you, it's best to act civilly towards THEM! By doing so, you present no opportunity for escalation of force.




[edit on 2010/6/17 by nenothtu]

reply to post by DHSreallybugsme


A company, because of neglect, shortsightedness, ignorance of containment technique required for drilling at great depths, GREED,
profit over safety, deceit, SHAMELESS BEHAVIOR has caused one of the greatest environmental castastrophes we have ever seen. And they are calling the shots. BP is hiring mercenaries. Period. They have been caught lying at EVERY turn. Their credibility is smithereens.
And yet people still defend their actions. Any other company would have been put on ice. People claim that BP has the expertise and should be in charge. BULL#, and you all KNOW IT. They won't accept the help, no matter how small, from anyone, let alone in Hollywood, because it means getting SOMEBODY ELSE'S CAMERA in their goop.
As far as access to beaches that are NOT CLOSED by the county or parrish, it is pure ARROGANCE to shut the people of America out of the loop by hiring thugs to diminish access to the truth.
As far as interfering with the workers, excuse me but, talking to one or two workers for a few minutes is no big deal. In moderation, of course. I expect reporters and inquirers to conduct themselves appropriately. Check out the encounter at Grand Isle LA a few days ago. Talon Security refused access to beach. Local Sheriff said BACK OFF. And the thug had to comply.
These mercenaries are under the hire of BP. Their stupidity and (cannot think of human word to describe these gits) have ruined an unimaginable amount of things. Time will tell that tale. Go ahead and defend their right to keep people away from the truth. You get what you deserve.


P.S. Sorry for all the edits. Purely grammatical, I assure you. I hate typos.


[edit on 17-6-2010 by DHSreallybugsme]

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I wonder if he remembers what its like to have a soul or where he left his balls when he sold out.

pathetic!

When private companies chartered in a foreign country use uniformed "security" to deny access of concerned Americans and the free press to a public beach, we are heading down the same road that led to Nazi Germany in the 1930s.

Tell me this, what are they hiding? What are the safety dangers? Obama can go down to the water's edge for a P.R. stunt and pick up a tar ball, so it must not be too dangerous.

O.K., if there is a danger of toxic fumes, local law enforcement can redirect traffic for that reason.

People want to see for themselves what is happening. Reporters with cameras want to document this tragedy and yes, speak with the workers to find out if there is unethical intimidation going on.

I'm sorry, but America is going down the drain. I detest seeing private security paid by BP telling workers they "don't have to comment to the media" and telling inquiring Americans "no comment."

Since when does a foreign company control a crisis on American soil?

This is getting more absurd by the day.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by switching yard]

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by ANNED
All you need to get a basic job with wackennuts is a guard card.(in some states with out guard card requirements all you need in a warm body)

Then over time and with training you can work strike breaker.

If you have the right security clearances you might go into there government contract div.(ex military)

And if you have a top secret clearance with the right endorsements you might even get a job at area 51. (ex military with top secret commo ect)

The jokers right off street is just going to fallow the instruction his boss gave him.
This grade of employee is not very smart and picked just because they are a warm body.

Likely anyone with a fire department or EMT ID could flash there ID and walk right by these jokers by telling them they were of official business
the worse these people would do is call there supervisor.



[edit on 17-6-2010 by ANNED]

Not so. Everyone who works strike details is a CPO, former combat arms military or law enforcement. "Warm bodies" are cannon fodder, which is the type of people I replaced on strike details, after the strikers pulped 'em and put 'em in the hospital. They found us a little bit tougher to pulp. Never got it done, as a matter of fact, although they TRIED to intimidate us, it backfired on 'em, and they never, ever jumped.

WSI is the government contracts division. Armor Group pulls most of the overseas government contracts.

ALL security contractors follow the instructions of their boss. That's what they're hired to do, and fresh off the street guards aren't going to be working contracts like this. CPOs only, and they're selected from their home offices based on prior performance there.

"Warm bodies" catch duty as doorknob rattlers, and that's about it. Wackenhut has LOTS of jobs requiring a security clearance, and you don't have to be ex-military to get one, you just have to need it for the job, and pass the background check. If you already have one, that's a big plus.

I am going by experience i had around wackennuts that i had when i worked as a federal security officer years ago on a navy research base.
As for the strike crew they most of the time do start with the warm body type(cop want to be)
Only when the strikers wise up and give wackennuts a hard time do they bring in the professional types. why waste money on the pros if you don't need to.

ALL security contractors follow the instructions of their boss.
I found that they(warm body type cop want to be) even follow the instructions when they are illegal.
This is where we had problems with them.

Use of force by these guard type get them in trouble every time.

I had a case where i was crossing the area where a guard was told not to let anyone pass.
I showed my identification as i crossed his line.
and the stupid idiot grab my arm to stop me.
I told him he was under arrest and to call his supervisor.
When his supervisor got there he was baffled as to why i was harassing him and his guard.
Needless to say the guard was fired and the supervisor went back to rattling doors.

In most states a guard can not use physical force to stop someone until that person has used physical force against them.
In short the guard must be attacked first.

In many cases you can harass a guard all day and they can not touch you till you have assaulted them.

With these wackennuts on a public beach I would keep trying to cross there line and backing off till they crossed the line because they got pi**ed.
I would also have someone filming in the background to prove there illegal assault on me.

I would like to see about 10,000 reporters with cameras blazing walk past all these guards in all of the affected gulf shore states.

BP keeps buying off everybody and it's sickening.

There should be nothing secret about what is happening. If hundreds or thousands of dead wildlife roll up on the beach, this should be well documented by independent journalists. If clean-up workers are being intimidated by BP, this should also be documented.

Whatever happened to the media in this country? Bought off by the big corporations?

Sickening.

And for those who continue to support the idea that were all fruitcake whackadoodle tin-foil hat conspiricists, (is that even a word?) I present even
more crackpot material.

reply to post by ThaLoccster


That car crash does not impact me, my children or my grandchildren. You make very good points and I agree with you on some of them but there is a much more to this situation and problem than your simple logic can address, Sir.

I cannot yet start a new thread; I don't have enough posts. This thread seemed like the most appropriate still-active thread in which to post this info, so here goes:
For those that were following RAP (Restore America Plan), a major update occurred today. RAP filed a "Lis Pendens" in the Hague Court against the British Crown for 10 Quad trillion (quadtrillion) dollars DUE TO THE OIL LEAK, HARMFUL DISPERSANTS, etc and called it an act of war!! (on June 14th)
Here's the link (and there are 3 links there--the document, the proof of fax transmission and Reps/Senators/news media contacts):

www.restoreamericaplan.net...

Originally posted by Habit4ming
I cannot yet start a new thread; I don't have enough posts. This thread seemed like the most appropriate still-active thread in which to post this info, so here goes:
For those that were following RAP (Restore America Plan), a major update occurred today. RAP filed a "Lis Pendens" in the Hague Court against the British Crown for 10 Quad trillion (quadrillion) dollars DUE TO THE OIL LEAK, HARMFUL DISPERSANTS, etc and called it an act of war!! (on June 14th)
Here's the link (and there are 3 links there--the document, the proof of fax transmission and Reps/Senators/news media contacts):

www.restoreamericaplan.net...

Originally posted by ANNED

I am going by experience i had around wackennuts that i had when i worked as a federal security officer years ago on a navy research base.

I am going by experience I had INSIDE Wackenhut. This is me, working in the aftermath of hurricane Isabelle:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/51f85969db94.jpg[/atsimg]
You'll no dobt notice the similarity in uniforms between me, and the cat in the video. Difference is, I'm armed here. Otherwise, both CPOs.

As for the strike crew they most of the time do start with the warm body type(cop want to be)
Only when the strikers wise up and give wackennuts a hard time do they bring in the professional types. why waste money on the pros if you don't need to.

No, they don't, not with Wackenhut. The guards I replaced on strikes were all in house security, not Wackenhut. They called us in when strikers do stupid things like rush the guard shack. It was done exactly as I described.

ALL security contractors follow the instructions of their boss.
I found that they(warm body type cop want to be) even follow the instructions when they are illegal.
This is where we had problems with them.

And this may be where we are differing. Wackenhut has 4 basic types of guards (actually 5 now - they made special BSOs for banks so they didn't have to pay full price for us CPOs to get an armed guard), from doorknob shakers on up to sworn police officers. Not sure what sort you dealt with.

I never, EVER knew a CPO to follow an illegal order. We all KNEW the difference, having had experience with that sort of thing before, some in the military, some as police. We weren't about to follow illegal orders. Not only because they were illegal, but also as a matter of self-preservation. Wackenhut will throw you to the wolves in a heartbeat - not a chance they'd stand behind you just because you were 'following orders'.

Use of force by these guard type get them in trouble every time.

Maybe where you're from, not here. I never had a problem with it, but then I never used it unnecessarily, either. Gotta use some common sense, or yeah, you can get in a world of hurt, not just Wackenhut, and not just security.

In most states a guard can not use physical force to stop someone until that person has used physical force against them.
In short the guard must be attacked first.

Okay.... I only did this for about 12 years or so.... maybe your vast experience trumps mine. Any guard that can't get the job done gets what he has coming to him. I never had a problem with it, in any state I worked in. Everywhere I've worked, you can use the amount of force , and ONLY that amount, necessary to overcome the resistance presented. But you get the job done, or find another job. I never had to be 'attacked' first. All they had to do was attempt breaking the security. At that point, they were under detention, like it or not, and whatever force necessary to detain them was brought to bear, but no more than that.

I think what you're trying to describe is 'excessive force', and yeah, that'll get you in trouble.

In many cases you can harass a guard all day and they can not touch you till you have assaulted them.

Big difference between just harassing a guard, and breaking the security. A guy can't take a little harassment, he really ought not to be in that line of work.

With these wackennuts on a public beach I would keep trying to cross there line and backing off till they crossed the line because they got pi**ed.
I would also have someone filming in the background to prove there illegal assault on me.

I think this particular beach is in Alabama. I invite you to go on down, and have at it.

Edit to add: After further reflection, I remembered that when I went down to Fort Bragg last August, The gate I went through had a Wackenhut officer manning it - a TSO, or what we called "blueshirts", because of their uniforms. If that's what your experience with the company is based on, then I have to concede your assessment as 'door shakers' and 'cannon fodder'. They are the most basic level of guard, and you are correct, they can be hired right off of the street, often just for special occaisions, like around Christmas time, for traffic direction at shopping centers and such as that.. Neither do they have the background of CPOs, nor do they get the same training we got after hire. Next level up is USOs, who wear white uniform shirts. Most of those have to survive long enough as TSOs to get there, and so have somewhat more good sense and experience of security, but still not on a level with CPOs.

TSOs are pulled out of facilities in the event of strikes, and CPOs are sent in, because TSOs are neither trained nor equipped for such scenarios.


[edit on 2010/6/18 by nenothtu]

what should really upset everyone here who cares is the fact that alll this civilian contract security people are making anywhere from $250 to $500 dollars a day plus expenses and guess who is footing that bill your Federal Tax dollars. So we are paying people large sums of money from our already bankrupt governement fund to keep cititzens off their beaches (public access). How did the cart get so far ahead of the horse?

'' I know nothing, I'm from Barcelona'..

Looks like scenes from 'the bodysnatchers' no one knows anything and moving around doing nothing..

Oil Cleanup, lol, BP arrests people that come to cleanup, so who is cleaning up ?..

reply to post by SWCCFAN


WOW the people in this video are ridiculously rude and annoying. "Why, why can't I/ is it legal to" Come on! these poeple are just doing their jobs. If they say they can't make a comment on something then why keep asking them. People are behaving very child like over this oil spill.

Originally posted by jbmitch
what should really upset everyone here who cares is the fact that alll this civilian contract security people are making anywhere from $250 to $500 dollars a day plus expenses and guess who is footing that bill your Federal Tax dollars. So we are paying people large sums of money from our already bankrupt governement fund to keep cititzens off their beaches (public access). How did the cart get so far ahead of the horse?

I think your estimates are a bit on the high side for this sort of duty. Last one of these I volunteered for was in 2003, and I made $144.00 a day for the first 40 hours, $216.00 a day for the next 44, then the next week that cycle started over again. $1272 a week, working 7-12 hour shifts, total of 84 hours a week to get that. Got $30.00 a day per diem, $210 a week for that. Government taxed the hell out of that money, too. I was lucky to get $800.00 a week for 84 hours of work.

Granted, that was 6, almost 7, years ago, but I doubt it has increased much since then. Wackenhut isn't known for giving huge raises - as a matter of fact, all raises are based on what the contract you're working allows.


[edit on 2010/6/18 by nenothtu]