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Timing or trigger finesse: which is more important in shooting?

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posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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Obviously both are important in shooting, and it will depend on other factors such as the type of gun being used, the shooter's familiarity with the weapon, etc.

So for the sake of argument let's assume a well-calibrated handgun with which you are familiar. Would you rather improve your timing when tracking a moving object, or would you choose to improve your handling of the trigger? Just curious what member would say.




posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 04:25 PM
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Trigger control is everything. Nothing else matters, if you can't control the trigger. You can have perfect sight alignment, and blow the shot without good trigger control. "Timing" as you put it, is part of proper trigger control. You want the sear to disengage just as your sights are aligned where you want the bullet to hit. Learning to lead your target is dead simple by comparison to learning to master the trigger.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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I agree with Moonwilson. Trigger control is the foundation that everything else is built on. This is why the military uses the "dime on the barrel" exercise as a prelude to live fire.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:12 PM
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What the heck is trigger control? Knowing when to shoot and not being sporadic? Or is there some hidden art in here that I'm not aware of? Trigger control almost makes it seem as if there is more than one way to pull the trigger, and that different methods produce different results.

I'unno. I've never used anything but a water-gun and bb-gun.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:19 PM
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First of all, there is very little to do with "trigger control", as the only thing you need to do is know to squeeze the trigger, not pull it. That's about it, it's a short and small response to an otherwise larger action.

You need to be more concerned with correct posture, and breath control if at all possible. Depends on the situation and what sort of distances you're dealing with. If dealing with rifles, it's especially important to worry about your breathing and body posture, proper grip, etc. Handguns are another thing to contend with, but the general rules still apply.

Close quarters, it's all about controlling the entire weapon and maintaining a controlled posture at all times. Squeezing the trigger is an afterthought, it's the end of the entire cycle.

Pulling the trigger implies a loss of control. The harder you pull and the faster you pull it, the more sporadic your firing and the more dangerous the situation becomes. It's hard to explain the proper techniques in firing a handgun. Rifles are a bit easier to explain, in my opinion.

By timing, I assume you mean hitting a moving target. That's all breath and proper leading, depending on the angle. You have to be a crack shot if you want to hit a moving target that's moving at a 90° angle from you in any direction, and at any distance.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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So, basically, everything I expected to be most important when firing a weapon. What do you mean by moving at a 90° angle away from you? What the heck does that look like?



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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the electrodes that send signals to firing mechanisms on the weapon have made contemporary trigger control obsolete.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign
 


I made it unnecessarily complicated. Basically, moving left or right on the horizon in front of you, if you will. Not coming at you, or moving away from you, going straight left or right. A 90° angle from your position.

The greater the distance, the harder the shot obviously.

That's when trigger 'squeeze' becomes imperative. You're not hitting a moving target like that at any distance if you're pulling the trigger, in my opinion, unless you're just lucky.

Your index finger exerts a lot of force if pulled too hard, and in a combat situation, it can get to be too much. If you pull too hard with your finger, that force rides up your whole arm and starts engaging more muscles in your arm the more you continue to pull it. You shouldn't be using any other muscle when firing any weapon, really. Not your wrist, not your arm, nothing. Just firm (but loose) grip on the weapon, your relaxed posture, and a trigger squeeze.

The best way to figure out if you're doing it right, with a rifle, is to be "surprised" when the shot goes off. That means you were relaxed, concentrated on your target, and you squeezed the trigger.

After enough training, you're no longer "surprised" by your shot, it just becomes a mechanical action really.



[edit on 15-6-2010 by SyphonX]



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by SentientBeyondDesign
So, basically, everything I expected to be most important when firing a weapon. What do you mean by moving at a 90° angle away from you? What the heck does that look like?


It's half as much as moving 180 degrees away from yourself... or 1/4 the way of moving 360 degrees toward yourself.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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I wanted to ask, how effective is it to shoot a gun while only using one eye? Like, for people that are partially blind.

(When you said 90 degrees I pulled out a protractor and was like ... "moving straight ahead, that is more difficult than moving parallel/diagonal to the horizon?" lol)



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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I really dislike this type of thread, however I was out shooting clay targets this afternoon with a friend on his land...

Trigger finesse is where it lies if you are talking about distance/range: At the end of the day anyone with good eyesight can hone in on a target, however only those who have a feeling for their weapon can go beyond following the steps of aiming and firing into the realm of being a shootist.

I do not mean to further this thread into political areas...as far as true hunters go knowing how to use ones weapon is the difference between eating a steak and boiled roots.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign
 


Most people shoot only aiming with one eye (the other eye is closed). The problem with only having sight in one eye is that depth perception is impaired and you have to learn a different way to judge distance accurately.

More advanced training will teach shooters to shoot with both eyes open to increase field of vision. This is very important in close quarter fighting.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:44 PM
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You need good trigger control to be able to hit a moving target. This question doesn't really make a lot of sense. It's like asking if you would choose being able to steer a car well, or drive it fast around a corner.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 05:51 PM
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It has been my experience that it is a combination of both. Trigger control is of the utmost importance, but I have found that getting your "timing" down with sidearms increases both accuracy and speed.

Without proper trigger control, it is obvious that the rest of your shooting posture is rendered useless.

Once you become extremely comfortable with a certain firearms the timing of your muzzle rise and fall becomes ingrained in your head. This leads to more predictable and accurate round placement.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by Doc Gator
 


Agree, and good point. Also recognizing which is your dominant eye is useful. You can tell that by making a circle with your thumb and forefinger and "placing" the circle over any distant object; by closing one eye at a time (while holding your circle in the same place), you can see which eye is your dominant one.

When my father was teaching me how to shoot with a revolver, he would put an expended round at a random place in the cylinder. This ALWAYS showed me if I was truly squeezing or jerking the trigger at the last instant. This was also useful with making me keep my grim firm, yet relaxed, not overtightened.

Even when shooting distance, I was never aware of the precise millisecond that the gun would fire. That consistent squeeze is vital to proper placement, whether a person is firing at a stationary target or a moving one.

I think being able to replicate your sight picture is equally important, especially with rifles. Eventually, you get to where you aren't conscious of the sights at all, but the target, because the manner in which you hold the rifle is consistent. For example (shotgun, not a rifle), when I was shooting trap a lot, I would catch the edge of the stock with the skin on my cheek such that it stopped the stock of the shotgun in the same place each time. With trapshooting, especially in the tournaments, consistency is imperative -- a person might shoot in excess of 300 rounds in a day, and if your sight picture isn't consistent, then performance will get worse as the day goes on.

[edit on 15/6/10 by argentus]



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 06:12 PM
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My vote is for trigger manipulation.

I used to spend my weekends range coaching CF reserve soldiers, and I can tell you that from my experience as a range coach, trigger jerk is the single biggest problem I see (after body position, of course) and it's one of the hardest things to train people on.

Especially if you have weak shooters that are having a hard time keeping the weapon sighted. Their foresight is sliding up and down or back and forth over the target whether because of breathing, bad body position, or weak muscles, and they try to time their trigger squeeze to coincide with a moment when their breathing brings the foresight back over the target.

This means they're "rushing" the trigger squeeze, and the obvious result is that they jerk the trigger and pull the shot off target. This is the mistake, and it's an unfortunately common one amongst inexperienced shooters.

The moment of release should always come as a surprise. Pull gently back on the trigger with ever increasing pressure until the shot is fired. Then follow through.

NEVER try to compensate for weak or shaky muscles by "timing" your trigger squeeze. You need to learn to keep the foresight trained on the target without strain. Only then can you confidently manipulate the trigger and release your shots on target.

My two cents.


**EDIT** I see that the OP was talking about sidearms. Most of my experience is with rifles, but I'm going to assume the basic principles are the same.

[edit on 15-6-2010 by RedBird]



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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the most important thing is: having what it takes to pull the trigger when you're going to kill. forget about all that timing and finesse mumbo jumbo, your heart is going to be beating so fast it doesn't matter anymore.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by SentientBeyondDesign
I wanted to ask, how effective is it to shoot a gun while only using one eye? Like, for people that are partially blind.

Your eye will get tired and start watering, vision will be off. Don't forget to blink once in a while.

Marksmanship Fundamentals (HG).
.Stance - get in a proper, steady, "comfortable", stance.
.Proper Grip - two hands, thumbs next or on top of each other.
.Sight alignment - Duh ...
.Breath Control - not as important with HG.
.Trigger Squeeze - dry-firing is your best friend.

google all that up, I'm sure you can find some good-informative videos.


Originally posted by DOADOA
the most important thing is: having what it takes to pull the trigger when you're going to kill. forget about all that timing and finesse mumbo jumbo, your heart is going to be beating so fast it doesn't matter anymore.

Exactly!
It's going to be beating really fast, adrenaline pumping at full speed.
Enough dry-fire, range time, reflexive fire drills and you gonna put two in that fu**er so fast that you won't even know what happened.

[edit on 15-6-2010 by kaskad]



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign
 


Trigger control is exactly what it sounds like- controlling the trigger. To a person who has never fired a weapon, or doesn't shoot much, it's a little difficult to explain. Trigger control means disengaging the sear at the perfect moment- which releases the firing mechanism lockwork, firing the weapon. While a simple concept- it is a very difficult skill to master. The basic idea is to manipulate the trigger in such a way that it does not affect your point of aim throughout your press. To illustrate the importance of trigger control, point an unloaded weapon with a laser on it at a distant point, and then yank the trigger. The laser point will "jump" dramatically.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 09:07 AM
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Steady Position, Breath control, Trigger Squeeze, Aim.



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