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The myth of the pro Israeli bias in foreign media- From my (an Israeli) point of view.

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posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 11:47 PM
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By your reasoning every single German citizen and solder who did not kill a Jew should have been decorated ???

I think you are missing the point the world is trying to make. They are now allowing food and toys in , do you understand how bad that sounds ?

Moving forward..... I wonder when they are going to let them export stuff again so they can make a living, or turn on the water and power for a whole day ?



Epic fail to look human.




posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by thedeadtruth
 


Yes, terror is a political tool. As I've said many times in this discussion between us- It's all about politics.
Be that as it may, the situation right now is that hamas is targeting only civilians, while Israel is targeting only hamas. That's terror.
I'd call them freedom fighters if they didn't kill their own people in the streets to gain political power, if they didn't call for destruction of Israel, if they didn't use the evacuation of Israel out of Gaza to expend their range of attack on civilians, if they had attacked only soldiers, and not only civilians.
This is terror.

If their plan had been carried out there would be no Palestinians in the west bank or Gaza. It would have been cleared out 30 years ago.
And they didn't form the IDF, the Hagana formed the IDF, the stern gang were opposed to the hagana and at sometimes even fought against the hagana.
It is also important to mention that the irgun and stern gang were tiny parts of the hagana (the stern gang was never more than a few hundred men) that broke off thinking the hagana wasn't offensive enough, their opinions were extreme and they were treated by hagana as terrorists and were illegal. They were banned by the newly-formed Israeli government under an anti-terrorism law and were only given amnesty at the end of the war.
Their proclaimed goals, BTW, were the expulsion of the Brits out of Israel.
What plan exactly are you referring to though? I mean was it an official plan or just something you interpreted?



That is not what I said or meant. You are being a weasel.


It looked like that's exactly what you meant, but if I misunderstood then I apologize..
After that comment, though, we begun a very civil and polite discussion, which I hope we can continue.

As for your point on this matter- If Germany hadn't attacked the world, the Jews would have probably been gone. Nobody cared about what happened to the Jews before and during the war. Allied forces weren't rushing to take Germany in order to "save the Jews", America didn't join the war because of the Jews, no one did anything for the Jews. Their rescue was not an objective, but more of a side effect. I'm not saying they weren't grateful, I'm just saying it was totally different to what goes on today.

No, by my reasoning any German who didn't think the Jews were rats, and cared about human lives and did not want to kill them, and treated them as human beings, and did not slaughter them for no reason, and did not shoot them down just because they're Jews should be recognized as a normal human being and not as a crazy sociopath. And if even 50% of the German army were these kind of soldiers the war would have looked completely different.

Your comparisons of Israel to nazi Germany will fail every time. Not for lack of trying though, but because it was a completely different situation.

Also I should note that I give a rat's ass about being compared to Germany.. I find it provocative more than offensive, and it really doesn't bother me, it just makes no sense to me..
It just shows what the media, and biased sites and sources have gotten you to believe about Israel.

I completely understand how bad it sounds and how bad it is. I'm not saying the media should command us, but let's at least agree that there is no Israeli bias, because if there were this would have been used to show how the Israeli government is so awesome, right?

Moving forward, I hope all of what you mentioned will happen very soon.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 03:07 PM
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two points of separation from your premise....


Originally posted by Eliad
let's at least agree that there is no Israeli bias, because if there were this would have been used to show how the Israeli government is so awesome, right?


Google AIPAC...says it all.


Originally posted by EliadIt is also important to mention that the irgun and stern gang were tiny parts of the hagana (the stern gang was never more than a few hundred men) that broke off thinking the hagana wasn't offensive enough, their opinions were extreme and they were treated by hagana as terrorists and were illegal. They were banned by the newly-formed Israeli government under an anti-terrorism law and were only given amnesty at the end of the war.

Seems Yitzhak Shamir was deemed rehabilitated in pretty short order...and was not Moshe Dayan considered a terrorist as well? Don't kid yourself...the term 'terrororist' is entirely subjective. It wasn't that long ago when Osama was dubbed a freedom fighter by the west.

Israel is given a free pass by the western media unless their transgressions are so egregious that playing along threatens the complete credibility of the news source. That's when things get ignored or played down.

That's not an antisemitic statement...that's an unbiased observation.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I agree wtih what you say, except this:


Israel is given a free pass by the western media unless their transgressions are so egregious that playing along threatens the complete credibility of the news source. That's when things get ignored or played down.

Do you know that today Turkey military attacked Kurd positions, claiming they killed 150 militants? There are ZERO Western reporters covering this from inside the area itself, so nobody knows who really was killed and were innocent harmed or not. In all Turkey-Kurd conflict more people died then in Israeli-Palestinian one but nobody cares.
So this is not about things Israel does getting ignored. It is about enormous coverage Israel actions are getting. Israel is under microscope and every nasty thing it does is noticed. While rest of the globe is observed from telescope noticing only enormous nastiness.
So only thing Israeli opponents need to do is to poke Israel knowing that when response comes any mistake Israel will make will be there in spotlight. Even zoomed in. Sometimes photoshoped.
You surely can find how many civilians Israel killed in Gaza since 2000. How many civilians Hamas killed in Gaza? Ehhh, Ahhhh ,Emmm - right? How many civilians were killed this week in Kyrgystan? And where are graphic pictures in the news?
So i do not think that there is anti-Israeli bias, no. Nor there is pro-Israeli bias. There is huge exposure to what Israel does in the area vs almost total obscurity about anything else.



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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OP....

Didn't have goals that the people of Israel hasn't followed through on.... really ?

en.wikipedia.org...

" The nation and its land: Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will."

" War: Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals. "

" Aliens: Solve the problem of alien population [i.e. the Arab inhabitants of Palestine] "



And in reference to your lie about were these terrorists went afterward ....

" The Stern Gang.....( Lehi) was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on 31 May 1948, its leaders getting amnesty from prosecution or reprisals as part of the integration."

Please note: Yitzhak Shamir, ( a know terrorist in your own words ) Israeli prime minister 1983-1984 and 1986-1992.

Sounds like the people of Israel fully support "The Plan"



The people of Israel ( IDF ) are still carrying out those orders. And it is not just my opinion, history backs this up. If you can point me in the direction of some evidence that suggests otherwise, I would love to see it. If not you have lost the argument. It was the plan and it continues to be the plan. To take the land by sword and keep it at all costs.




In reference to your comment about how Hamas operate.....

Here is the first line in the song written by Avraham 'Yair' Sternof, the terrorist that founded your country......

" Unknown Soldiers are we, without uniform "

Care to explain the difference ? Or is it ok because they were Jewish ? Not some sub-human Arab ? Different rules for a supreme race ?



posted on Jun, 19 2010 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

I agree wtih what you say, except this:


Israel is given a free pass by the western media unless their transgressions are so egregious that playing along threatens the complete credibility of the news source. That's when things get ignored or played down.

Do you know that today Turkey military attacked Kurd positions, claiming they killed 150 militants?
There is huge exposure to what Israel does in the area vs almost total obscurity about anything else.


Israel takes a position similar to the US, in that it trumpets that it occupies the moral high ground. With this comes hubris. Turkey's actions? Consider its strategic position as a secular Muslim state. It can join the European Union, or it can follow the Saudis, Iranians, etc. Flyover rights by the US military are critical. Are they getting a pass? Likely...though not immune to controversy regarding the Kurds and the Armenian genocide.

Besides...how many Turks in your circle of friends as opposed to Jews? They don't have the presence to generate interest. No media coverage? Western media has blinders on...try Al Jazeera English:

Turkish troops killed in PKK attack english.aljazeera.net...


I refer back to AIPAC...an enormous Israeli lobby machine. One can witness the apologist machine that engages on ATS whenever Israel screws up. It is matched only by the antisemitism that oozes up at the same juncture. Frankly, most of the public criticism of Israel comes from the non-Christian talk radio bobbleheads. Oh, and Rense.

What I find most disgusting about the Israeli 'free pass' in the West, is the concept that the Christian Right supports Israel so that it can generate Armageddon, and bring about the Rapture. Bad craziness there.

So there you have it...the veracity of the OP depends entirely upon which goggles you happen to be wearing. Bottom line...no one is above scrutiny and no one is above accountability. No matter where these states exist, they are an abomination.

self edit to add the Huffington Post on the Turkish raidwww.huffingtonpost.com...
...so it's not being ignored.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by JohnnyCanuck]



posted on Jun, 20 2010 @ 06:54 AM
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reply to post by Eliad
 


Eilad, I fully agree with your take on the overwhelming media bias against Israel and the Jews. Basically those here who disagree refuse to face the facts.

You show clearly that the "Tank and Commandos vs child" photo was a hoax, cynically engineered to make Israel look bad. Why oh why can't people see this?

The media should focus on the craven venality of this dark skinned demon & the deception he deals, yet this is never mentioned because of the media's institutional anti semitism. I only hope that the brave soldiers detaining this young brute see that justice is visited upon him.

Eilad, I salute your quest for truth and justice & I believe most decent Americans would support you fully in the War On Terror.



posted on Jun, 20 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


What does the AIPAC has to do with anything?
Look at the reports on the ban's removal by Israel- most if not all are not in favor of Israel in any way..
I'm not saying they should, but if there was a lobby they would be kissing Israel's ass on how they're going for peace and what not..
Instead most of them keep reminding the reader that in spite of what it does Israel is still evil.
Whatever it is, objective, or anti Israeli, it sure as hell isn't pro Israeli...

We've discussed the whole terrorist thing. Yes it is a political tool, but it also represents (In this case) a political stance of the new formed Israeli state- We will not condone these acts.

The irgun and stern gang are both blown way out of proportion by new historians and biased media-
Hagana- 50,000 men.
Irgun- 4000.
Stern gang- a few 100s.

Number of participants in the Irgun massacre- 80 Irgun members and 40 stern gang members.


Mordechai Raanan, the Irgun commander in Jerusalem, stressed that women, children, and the elderly must not be harmed, and that the villagers were to be warned by loudspeaker to give them a chance to escape.


So because of this, or any other action like this, of a few members of two small radical organizations, and the whole Israeli war gets marked as a giant massacre..
Does this make sense to you? At all?

It's important to know the facts, and it's important to know the facts can be twisted to either side.

And at any rate, wasn't it Begin, one of the irgun's leaders, that signed the peace treaty with Egypt? The first peace treaty with any Arab nation.

10 years ago Israel was given a free pass. 8 years ago, maybe.
Now a days it is completely upside down.
The Israeli army had changed, the fatah has changed, the Palestinian people have changed.
And now hamas is given a free pass for anything it does.
Lies, stories, and edited videos are being fed to the media. And they swallow it up.
You see, the media just gives the people what they want- After 9/11 they wanted to see someone fight terror, that worked well for the Israeli lobby.
After the Iraq war, and the bush administration they want to see the exact opposite, feeling remorse and guilt for what America had done in Iraq and Afghanistan.
So this is how they make up for it now.

Doesn't it all make much more sense?

And your comments were definitely not anti semitic. Also you don't seem biased at any direction at all.

With respect,
Eliad.



posted on Jun, 20 2010 @ 10:52 AM
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Eliad, from what I have seen on ATS, you are brave to even raise this issue. Sentiment today, worldwide, has certainly turned against Israel, and this thread shows exactly that.

I personally tend to look at issues through a "conspiratorial" lens, for better or worse. What this leads to is that most of what we see happening, seems to be by intention. If this is the case, then this turning tide we see, with most of the world against Israel, was "planned", perhaps long ago.

As an Israeli, I'm sure you are well aware of the fact that non-zionist Jews have been sounding a warning for a long time, about how a Jewish state could eventually be used, against Jews. The mere existence of a Jewish state, and most especially in volatile Palestine, presented a serious danger to the Jewish people. Here's a quote from Dr. Makow's site:


"Political Zionism is an agency of Big Business. It is being used by Jewish and Christian financiers in this country and Great Britain, to make Jews believe that Palestine will be ruled by a descendant of King David who will ultimately rule the world. What delusion! It will lead to war between Arabs and Jews and eventually to war between Muslims and non-Muslims. That will be the turning point of history." (Henry H. Klein, "A Jew Warns Jews," 1947)

Klein was not a prophet of course, but he understood that Jews were being used, and worse, they were being "set up" for something terrible in the future. The future is almost here!

Back in 1947, there was a real expectation that Jews from around the world would come to Israel, and it would become a great nation. But things didn't quite turn out that way. Certainly today, Jews, especially in America, have no intention of ever going to Israel. There was a dream, and then there was the reality.

That reality was probably always known by those who gained most from the creation of Israel, who incidentally, were the same who backed Nazi Germany. Let the Jews have a dream, but in the end, Israel would serve her prime purpose, which was to be the flashpoint for a future world conflict. A conflict that TPTB could easily take from warm, to hot, with little effort, all depending upon what the bigger plan was, all along.

One final point Eliad. You seem to have identified yourself as a younger, secular Israeli. I wonder how many in the younger generation discuss the "reality" that the very concept of Israel was never "sustainable" to begin with, within the greater context of the massive difference in Jewish vs. Arab birthrates. As I'm sure you know, Israel long ago studied the matter officially, and determined that the Arab birthrate would eventually "conquer" Israel, and this "truth" is in reality the very center of all logical Israeli survival strategies, even if some may appear harsh. The very survival of Israel is in question.

But then, this takes us back to that conspiratorial view. It could be that this was the "plan" all along, and Jews have unwittingly played into a role that perhaps does not bode well for Israel's future.

I would certainly enjoy hearing about what Israeli's today think about these perhaps disturbing ideas.

JR



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Eliad
 





Be that as it may, the situation right now is that hamas is targeting only civilians, while Israel is targeting only hamas. That's terror.


You are completly deluded if you think that Israel through her policies are soley targeting Hamas with the blockade, operation Cast Lead etc.

It is called collective punishment. Collective punishment for electing in a free and fair election Hamas as their leaders. See if you reconciled the situation with the Palestinians as a whole then Israel will have secured her position.

Agreed Israel needs to protect itself. But don't you see? all this violenece directed towards Israel by SOME Palestinian groups is in reaction to Israeli policy, not becasue it is Israel. If Israel really wants peace she has to show it.

The means withdrawing COMPLETLY from the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Allowing Fatah and Hamas to reconcile and represent the whole of the Palestinian people. Allowing the Palestinians to have a state with borders, control of their own airspace etc.

And not only allowing this, but encouraging and helping the Palestinians with this. In return you will see the acceptance by Hamas of the Israeli right to exist (something they have already offered), massively lessen the Arab anger on the 'street' of her Israels neighbours, and take out the sting of any rhetoric from Iran and terrorist organisations.






[edit on 21-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by ATSdelurker
 


What channels do you feel are against Israel, and in what way?

What about Canada? What's the press coverage there like?

Do you have any connection to Israel, or did you just come to visit?


Sorry, I don't come on ATS much lately, thus haven't replied.


I don't have connections to Israel but I am married to a Jew. I'm sure to some people that means my words are irrelevant, but like I said, I was fairly neutral before going there, with slightly more sympathy for the people in West Bank/Gaza, and now, while I still have much sympathy for the common folks there, I find the news to be quite lopsided with its sympathy only for the Palestineans and blames on Israel. I was incredibly surprised by the lies I saw first hand (e.g. the subs being deployed), or at best the media's intentional misconceptions (e.g. Palestinean houses are nowhere near as shabby as you'd think. I certainly have never lived in houses that big/nice). *Not to say they're all nice houses, but I was certainly surprised by how many were.

Canadian media is pretty much same as US'. TV channels are pretty much US based. Most of our newspaper (at least the big ones) are more left winged and thus generally more anti-Israel.

I think I saw the lie about the submarine in Times Online, so that gives an example of why I believe they are against them. Others, like CNN, NBC, BBC, etc., it's obvious (to me, at least) by what kind of pictures/videos they use or the words they use to describes things, what gets publicity and what doesn't. For example, after the flotilla incident, you can tell by which channels didn't initially broadcast the video of the soldiers getting beaten or thrown off the boat. And somehow the pressing articles right after, isn't about the flotilla's intention to break the blockade (as stated outright by their spokesperson), instead the viral article is a list of food and cloth items not allowed due to the blockade, written cleverly to claim that these items are banned while most people glazed over certain key words and sentences that indicated that 1) there was no valid source to the list, and 2) they might have been banned at one time for some unknown reason (perhaps they weren't allowed when they came with a shipment of weapon making material, and thus the entire shipment is banned? Who knows, certainly no one who keep posting those articles) but not at all times.

TBH I got tired of the agenda on both sides and personally prefer to watch the Chinese news (from Hong Kong, not mainland China) on world matters. Somehow because they aren't pro or against much of anything, they just tell the story like it is instead of hiding sides of the stories that don't fit their agenda.



[edit on 21-6-2010 by ATSdelurker]



posted on Jun, 21 2010 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by ATSdelurker

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by ATSdelurker
 

What about Canada? What's the press coverage there like?


Most of our newspaper (at least the big ones) are more left winged and thus generally more anti-Israel.

I don't see that at all. The National Post gives Israel a free pass every time. The Toronto Star treads very cautiously, as the editorial page editor is (I believe) Muslim...certainly South Asian, but I see his column as very balanced. The Globe is a balanced paper, and the Toronto Sun is a Right-wing fishwrap. So far as I see, they are very forgiving of Israel as well, but I may be wrong.

You see columnists like Gwyn Dyer and Eric Margolis who have their slant, but, again, I don't see as propagandists either way.

Bottom line...I don't see any antisemitism in mainstream Canadian reportage. The nut bars, I can't account for. I figured I'd leave this discussion after my last comments, but what I saw as erroneous information drew me back. At this point, though, I go back to lurking as everything that is needed by me to address the OP has been said.



posted on Jun, 22 2010 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by thedeadtruth
 


Be that as it may, the situation right now is that hamas is targeting only civilians, while Israel is targeting only hamas. That's terror.


My friend, it is very normal that you think that way after serving IDF for 3 years and now your only 23 years old. On the other hand, as I witness in your posts you have the potential of critical thinking. Therefore I am sure, you will think more open while you experience how the world and discourses function.
Both sides are killing the innocent people, but look to the statistics which side kills more civilian, only because they are superior power. I don't tell you to choose the side of Hamas, but look to things from a "distance". If you look to the picture from a distance you will see some finer details, which are disturbing. If you decide to stay only "in" the picture, you must accept to being brushed by other people, discourses, beliefs etc...



posted on Jun, 23 2010 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by ATSdelurker

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by ATSdelurker
 

What about Canada? What's the press coverage there like?


Most of our newspaper (at least the big ones) are more left winged and thus generally more anti-Israel.

I don't see that at all. The National Post gives Israel a free pass every time. The Toronto Star treads very cautiously, as the editorial page editor is (I believe) Muslim...certainly South Asian, but I see his column as very balanced. The Globe is a balanced paper, and the Toronto Sun is a Right-wing fishwrap. So far as I see, they are very forgiving of Israel as well, but I may be wrong.

You see columnists like Gwyn Dyer and Eric Margolis who have their slant, but, again, I don't see as propagandists either way.

Bottom line...I don't see any antisemitism in mainstream Canadian reportage. [...]


We obviously differ in opinion of what is considered well balanced. and that's fine with me, I'm not here to change anyone's opinions.

However, please allow me to point out this website (though I'm sure there will again be people who say they have an agenda):
Honest Reporting Canada

This gives a glimpse of the bias. They don't even include the subtle bias I was talking about by the words they use to describe things, or pictures that show an incomplete story. This site highlights intentional erroneous statements, retractions and corrections written just so such that they aren't even truly retractions in meaning but only in official statements and placed in as inconspicuous a location as possible. Judging from the comments for some of the articles, I'm not the only one who thinks the same thing about CBC/G&M/Toronto Stars.

blog piece about Toronto Star's column by Linda McQuaig - one of many people's feedback re Toronto Star columns.

National Post and Toronto Sun are the conservative papers but aside from them, the other major papers are left. I can't speak for other cities however. Comparing Toronto Star and Sun, the Star has way more readership and therefore much more influence.

All I was originally saying is that people far far away are so quick to judge and the media certainly hasn't helped based on what I read vs what I saw. Most people who are so opposed the blockade have never been there, only read partial history off of some websites and newspapers, and decide their opinion must be absolutely completely right and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. Are we so egotistical that we think we know another person's history better than they do?



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 11:50 AM
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Eliad, where are you dude?
A) The salary paid for being internet-propagandist was not enough anymore.
B) You made a deal with them for only 2 weeks internet action.
C) The School started (unlikely).
D) Holiday started.
E) I am a bad person, and I am accusing you with stupid, paranoid things.



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 03:08 AM
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Since you do not watch froien news you are not in a position to know. The fact is if there is an attack on an Israeli of any kind it is deemed a terrorist attack and reportrd as such in US MSM. Since you do not watch much news you may not be aware that attacks on Palestinians are NEVER reported by MSM in the US. All MSM news has an Israeli slant to it. That is a fact



posted on Jun, 27 2010 @ 04:43 AM
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Let me give you an example: Who is Bowe Bergdahl? Of course you do not know as it is not reported in the American press. On the other hand most Americans HAVE heard of Shalit as He is being held by Israels enemy, Hamas. Bowe Bergdahl is an American POW held by the Taliban for 4 years now. THIS is NOT news in America. Why? The American media reports everything that serves the Israeli government!



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by gem_man
Let me give you an example: Who is Bowe Bergdahl? Of course you do not know as it is not reported in the American press. On the other hand most Americans HAVE heard of Shalit as He is being held by Israels enemy, Hamas. Bowe Bergdahl is an American POW held by the Taliban for 4 years now. THIS is NOT news in America. Why? The American media reports everything that serves the Israeli government!


Um, I'm confused. What does Bowe Bergdahl being captured by the Taliban and not being included in the media (I thought I read something on BBC about that, although that's not US-media it's still MSM) have anything to do with media reports allegedly serving the Israeli government (which I don't believe)? How does that prove what you're claiming?

If you're upset about that topic, and rightfully so, shouldn't you put that in, I dunno, a completely new and unrelated thread?



posted on Jul, 3 2010 @ 11:06 AM
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Well not sure where Eliad went, maybe back on duty? I hope deccal isn't right about you Eliad, but I sort of wonder, because the last day you responded was the 20th, the same day I asked you what many Israelis seem to feel about how their nation is being essentially "used" by that old "hidden hand" that Benjamin Disraeli famously mentioned a long time ago.

I realize it's one of the hardest things to consider, but it's not unlike Americans who are a rather brainwashed lot as a whole, having to consider the fact that their nation also seems to be playing a "black-hat" role in this play.

Many Americans recall the days after 9/11, flags waving everywhere. Across the nation, in most middle-class neighborhoods, it was practically sinful not to display a flag! Literally overnight, flags were sold out everywhere. And why? A surge of "patriotism" welled up, as the media fanned the flames. Not a bad thing, but...

Today, most understand that it was a false flag attack. No, I'm not going to simplistically spout off the usual "Israeli connection" stuff. It's not you, it's not "us", it's something "supranational" of course, which is why Jews are usually the first to get thrown in front of the bus.

But shouldn't all of us take a step back, and occasionally consider the "bigger picture"? I know that many Americans got their wake-up call with 9/11, but sadly, most are still marching right along the same path laid out back then, as good 'ole "patriotism" has truly become perverted.

You know, there is so much "momentum" in history, we all get swept along. Don't you feel sometimes that Jews, especially Israelis, have all this momentum going on, perhaps centuries in the making, that can potentially be "harnessed" by those who do not have the best intentions?

I have blogged about it. The Jews are a people with a strong, cohesive identity. While this is a "strength", it is also a huge weakness, especially if those truly "in charge" were to recognize the usefulness of a people such as the Jews. Of course, the time could come when Jews will no longer be needed by those pulling the strings, and then what?

As I stated in my post on June 20th. This isn't just a bunch of gentiles picking on Israel, many Jews have been trying to get the message to their fellow Jews, legitimately sounding the alarm, that you are possibly being tricked. Go to Dr. Henry Makow's website, he has some great info, and the best is probably the kind of info that is from Jews, directed at Jews.

As I asked before, I'll ask again, because I'm pretty sure lots of people might like to hear what young, secular Israelis feel about these issues. Yes, the time spent in the IDF obviously serves to "indoctrinate", but I'm guessing you are intelligent enough to go beyond that.

Americans, Canadians, British...we have the same problem with our own indoctrinations, our own versions of history taught at such a young age, but many of us have decided we wanted the "red pill" nonetheless, and swallowed hard as many treasured myths fell away.

When the pain was over, we were glad we made the choice. I won't speak for all, but the fact that we now "know more", didn't necessarily kill our "patriotism", however we wanted to define it. For many, it actually has the opposite effect, and we take a hard look at our nations, where they are being "led" shall we say, and we want to do what's best for all, and stop the insanity.

Can it not be the same for Israel, and more importantly, for Jews worldwide? Come on Eliad, people are sincere, many might like to hear the honest Israeli perspective. I for one would like to think there is still hope.

JR MacBeth
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