Why Have You Left Christianity?

reply to post by Wang Tang


No offense but it sounds to me that your faith was weak. If you don't have faith in God, you cant find him. God told us that there is nothing good in us. God told us that we cant do anything without him. Paul even talk about his own sinning. God is real, Jesus loves you, and The bible is the word of God. Faith brother dont lose it. God need soldiers in faith bro.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

reply to post by slymattb


Well this may seem confusing to you, but I feel like I understand God better now than I did before. I left Christianity, and now I pray more than I ever did before. I feel like I'm more patient and understanding than I was before. I feel better in general. I don't have to force myself to believe in things I'm not sure about. I'm more confident. And with this better understanding of myself and the world, I understand God a lot better. I know that God has plans for my life, and I know he likes to pull strings in my life to test me and to guide me, but most of all I know that I cannot fully comprehend him, ever. And I know that anyone who claims to know what God wants for them is lying. My faith is weak, maybe that is true, but it is getting stronger every day I go without Christianity.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Wang Tang
I am wondering, if you are like me and was a Christian and then left it, why is it that you left?

Simply, it didn't make logical sense. Over the years, all my logical questions went unanswered. I was given answers like "It's God's will" or "He works in mysterious ways" or some other such answer, meant to shut me up and stop my thinking processes.

It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL. I could no longer pretend to believe in something when all signals pointed to me being wrong.

Since unloading my life of everything having to do with religion, life makes so much more sense to me. I don't feel all the attachments that I used to feel with religion. I feel really free.

Like the OP, I don't need religion to know that being a good person is the right thing to do. I know that generosity, kindness, open-mindedness and honesty are traits that I want to have. Not because someone tells me to or because I read it in a book, but because I WANT to and it feels right.

I don't need the fear, threats, insecurity and dogma that comes with religion.

"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.

It's certainly scientifically possible that there ARE logical answers, but I started asking questions with I was five years old and didn't stop until about 30 years later, when I realized that no one really had the answers and they were making them up. I asked these questions of my parents, many people of several religions, nearly every person who tried to push their religion on me, including people who came to my door, peddling their religion and several theologists.

I eventually came to my own conclusions about religion, as I think each individual should.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.

It's certainly scientifically possible that there ARE logical answers, but I started asking questions with I was five years old and didn't stop until about 30 years later, when I realized that no one really had the answers and they were making them up.

I asked these questions of my parents, many people of several religions, nearly every person who tried to push their religion on me, including people who came to my door, peddling their religion and several theologists.

I eventually came to my own conclusions about religion, as I think each individual should.

"Apologetics" have not been actively taught to churches in over 130 years.. Now if it's no longer being taught to parishioners, how can those same parents teach it to their children at night? I can link you to various websites that deal specifically in Christian Apologetics and can assure you that there is an answer to every question you could imagine. Like I said, just because persons X,Y, and Z do not have an answer to questions A,B, and C, does not mean questions A,B, and C have no answers to them.

What questions are you concerned with?

[edit on 21-6-2010 by NOTurTypical]

The best books I could recommend to tackle the tough objections to God, Christ, and Christianity are:

A Case for Faith
A Case for God
A Case for Christ
A Case For the Real Jesus

All by Lee Strobel. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who began his writing as a devout atheist, and during his "Question and Answer" sessions with world renowned Apologetics teachers he became a Christian. He play the devils advocate in the books, answering or repeating all the objections that arise in this world and the answers are both forthcoming and logical. Great books for those who wish to have these hard questions answered.

Here is a list of the questions answered in the table of contents from his book "A Case for the Real Jesus":

Challenge #1: "Scholars Are Uncovering a Radically Different Jesus in Ancient Documents Just as Credible as The Four Gospels"

Challenge #2 "The Bible's Portrait of Jesus Can't Be Trusted Because the Church Tampered with the Text"

Challenge #3 Part 1: "New Examinations Have Refuted Jesus' Resurrection" Part 2 "The Cross-Examination

Challenge #4 "Christianity's Beliefs about Jesus Were Copied from Pagan Religions"

Challenge #5 "Jesus Was and Impostor Who Failed to Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies"

Challenge #6 "People Should Be Free to Pick and Choose What to Believe about Jesus"



[edit on 21-6-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Apologetics" have not been actively taught to churches in over 130 years.. Now if it's no longer being taught to parishioners, how can those same parents teach it to their children at night?

So, you think I'm lying? I don't know where you've been but there are millions of people who defend their religion using their own form of reason and logic. I assure you that I am not lying.

I can link you to various websites that deal specifically in Christian Apologetics and can assure you that there is an answer to every question you could imagine.

If I wanted to delve into the subject, I could find them myself. I'm quite good with the Google. Thanks, but I'm not interested.

What questions are you concerned with?

I no longer am concerned. I have found my answers. Thanks.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

So, you think I'm lying? I don't know where you've been but there are millions of people who defend their religion using their own form of reason and logic. I assure you that I am not lying.

What are you talking about? I never said you were a liar, I'm sure your experience is VERY real, because Christians are not taught logical Apologetics much if all anymore in churches. A vast majority of them are not able to answer the hard questions posed to them. Where did you get the idea I was claiming you were untruthful in your experience??

If I wanted to delve into the subject, I could find them myself. I'm quite good with the Google. Thanks, but I'm not interested.

Then the discussion is over with, you don't want to really know the answers to your questions, and used a fallacy of logic to escape finding truth. You falsely assumed that because some people couldn't answer your questions that your questions had no answers to.




[edit on 21-6-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What are you talking about? I never said you were a liar

That's why I ASKED: "So, you think I'm lying?" To check with you. A misunderstanding, I'm sure.

I'm sure your experience is VERY real, because Christians are not taught logical Apologetics much if all anymore in churches.

You didn't mention "logical apologetics" in your previous post.

Then the discussion is over with

Yes. It is. Thank you, though.

you don't want to really know the answers to your questions, and used a fallacy of logic to escape finding truth.

No. As I said, I have found my answers.

You falsely assumed that because some people couldn't answer your questions that your questions had no answers to.

On the contrary, depending on whom you ask, there are many different answers to the same questions. Just because you have your own answers, that doesn't mean that they will mean anything to me.

Whether I said "logical Apologetics" or simply "Apologetics" is not the issue, the fact is for over 130 years the churches have not taught ANY Apologetics to the parishioners.

Secondly, you made the claim that the answers you got which led you away were "It's just God's will" etc... which means as you claimed, you were led away by people who did not have the answers to your questions.

If you were not being truthful earlier when I originally quoted that comment then that's your problem, not mine. "God's will" is sometimes an answer, He's sovereign and sometimes he doesn't give answers to His ways, but for the great majority of things there is a relevant LOGICAL answer to a question. You just have to inquire from the right source who has it.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Whether I said "logical Apologetics" or simply "Apologetics" is not the issue, the fact is for over 130 years the churches have not taught ANY Apologetics to the parishioners.

I hate the idea of anyone trying to sell their religion to me, whether they call it proselytizing, witnessing or "logical apologetics" (which is a term I had never heard until today). It makes no difference to me. To me, beliefs are a private thing and I feel like you're trying to dig into me to see what I do and don't believe so you can convince me otherwise. Let me be clear about that: I'm not interested. My beliefs are mine. I don't try to push them on you or try to make you believe something you don't believe. Nor do I try to find out WHY you believe what you believe so I can convince you otherwise. I would appreciate the same courtesy from religious people, but unfortunately, I RARELY get it.

I was raised in a VERY religious home and have had a multitude of opportunities to learn anything I wanted to about religion, specifically Christianity. It doesn't make sense to me. And I'm not interested in you trying to MAKE it make sense to me. I'm sorry if this ruins your approach, but I'm not in the market for a religion. If I were, I would search one out for myself.

Secondly, you made the claim that the answers you got which led you away were "It's just God's will" etc... which means as you claimed, you were led away by people who did not have the answers to your questions.

You are concentrating on only a portion of my original response. I also stated: It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL. I could no longer pretend to believe in something when all signals pointed to me being wrong.

If you were not being truthful earlier when I originally quoted that comment then that's your problem, not mine.

So, now you ARE questioning my honesty.

You just have to inquire from the right source who has it.

I have no doubt that there are answers out there that make logical sense to you. That's great. But I'm not interested in delving into something (belief in God and the practice of religion) that doesn't (to me) make sense on the face of it.

I answered the OP in this thread with a short and sweet answer and I feel like you're preying (not praying) on people in this thread to try to get those of us who have left Christianity to return to it. It's not going to happen with me. Prey on someone else.

[edit on 6/21/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I hate the idea of anyone trying to sell their religion to me, whether they call it proselytizing, witnessing or "logical apologetics" (which is a term I had never heard until today).

Everyone hates that idea, what's your point there?? lol "Apologetics" isn't PRO-ACTIVE, it's RE-ACTIVE. Meaning, it reacts to questions posed TO IT. It comes from the Greek word apologia meaning "defense" as in 1 Peter 3:15:

"Always be ready to give a defense (apologia) to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you".

Notice the terms "defense" and "asks you" above... that's RE-ACTIVE, not PRO-ACTIVE.

To me, beliefs are a private thing and I feel like you're trying to dig into me to see what I do and don't believe so you can convince me otherwise.

If you truly felt that beliefs were a 'private thing' then you wouldn't be sharing your beliefs in this thread. Your statement is self-defeating.

Let me be clear about that: I'm not interested. My beliefs are mine. I don't try to push them on you or try to make you believe something you don't believe.

First of all, quit being narcissistic, you're not the ONLY one reading our discussion, there are many others here who may ALSO be wondering if there are answers to THEIR tough criticisms against God, Jesus, or Christianity, and just because you have both your index fingers implanted firmly in your ears doesn't mean that ALL people have theirs there as well.

Secondly, if you didn't 'try to push your beliefs' on others you wouldn't make comments like "It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL." So, you clearly don't practice what you preach Sir.

I was raised in a VERY religious home and have had a multitude of opportunities to learn anything I wanted to about religion, specifically Christianity. It doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, i know 1 Corinthians 2:14 quite well, I see/deal with it daily:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And I'm not interested in you trying to MAKE it make sense to me.

I'm sorry if this ruins your approach, but I'm not in the market for a religion. If I were, I would search one out for myself.

It makes no difference to me, my job is to speak truth, not to save people. That's the job of the Holy Spirit.

You are concentrating on only a portion of my original response. I also stated: It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL. I could no longer pretend to believe in something when all signals pointed to me being wrong.

And how exactly am I supposed to comment on what does or does not make sense TO YOU???? I commented on what I'm capable to comment on, which was the fallacy of logic that because those you asked questions to did not have sound answers thus the questions you asked HAD no answers to them. That's very false.

So, now you ARE questioning my honesty.

I said "IF"... words mean something.

I have no doubt that there are answers out there that make logical sense to you.

Truth is truth whether it makes sense to people or not. Not understanding doesn't make truth false. Logically sound answers are truthful and logically sound on their own merits, regardless of the number of people who adhere to them.

That's great. But I'm not interested in delving into something (belief in God and the practice of religion) that doesn't (to me) make sense on the face of it.

Yeah, we already know it's "foolishness" to you.

I answered the OP in this thread with a short and sweet answer and I feel like you're preying (not praying) on people in this thread to try to get those of us who have left Christianity to return to it.

I just pointed of your fallacy of logic with that post you made. That's all, you took exception to that, oh well. The fallacy still stands, just because people couldn't answer your questions doesn't mean there is no answer there, it means those whom you asked were ignorant to the correct one. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thinking of which, to others reading this thread, if you have tough questions about God, Jesus, salvation, or Christianity, send them to me via u2u and I'll answer any and all of them.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Apologetics" isn't PRO-ACTIVE, it's RE-ACTIVE. Meaning, it reacts to questions posed TO IT.

And what questions did I ask YOU? None. You approached me with your information on apologetics and book recommendations that I didn't ask for.

Notice the terms "defense" and "asks you" above... that's RE-ACTIVE, not PRO-ACTIVE.

Yeah. I noticed. I didn't ASK YOU, you asked me, "What questions are you concerned with"? If I wanted to, I would have asked you questions, but I didn't. That's my choice, right?

... you're not the ONLY one reading our discussion, there are many others here who may ALSO be wondering if there are answers to THEIR tough criticisms against God, Jesus, or Christianity...

I'm sure if they are curious, they will ASK YOU. I have a feeling that you don't often wait for people to ASK YOU...

Secondly, if you didn't 'try to push your beliefs' on others you wouldn't make comments like "It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL."

Someone asked a question, I answered it. I didn't push it on anyone. I stated my belief. I didn't push people to agree with me or attack them when they didn't. Take a lesson.

So, you clearly don't practice what you preach Sir.

I'm not preaching anything. YOU asked ME questions and I answered them. What a twisted perception you have! You think I've been asking you questions! And I'm not a "sir".

And how exactly am I supposed to comment on what does or does not make sense TO YOU????

YOU'RE NOT! You took it upon yourself to comment on my answer in this thread. You poked your nose into my life and asked questions that frankly are none of your business AND laid a bunch of crap on me that I don't care about in the way of book recommendations. I tried to tell you that I wasn't interested SEVERAL times, POLITELY, but you continued to push. So typical! And now you seem to be angry that I didn't play the game the way I was supposed to. Not my problem. Jesus, you are a piece of work!

Your user-name is NOTurTypical, but I gotta tell you, what has happened in this thread with you is very typical regarding my interaction with Christians. They approach me and then try to make it look like I'm in search of something that only they can provide. It's comical!

But make no mistake. I didn't ask you squat!

[edit on 6/21/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.

A religion is only as good as its worst followers. One of the biggest failures of Islam is its inability to stop its terrorist groups and suicide bombers and dictatorships. One of the biggest failures of Christianity is having such a large group of people who call themselves Christian who don't actually give a crap or know a crap about Christianity. And when you are a Christian and you want answers and you want fellowship and you look around and all you see is fakes, you eventually get discouraged.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And what questions did I ask YOU? None. You approached me with your information on apologetics and book recommendations that I didn't ask for.

I never claimed that YOU asked me a question. Stop reading into things that are not there to begin with. You made THIS statement:

"I hate the idea of anyone trying to sell their religion to me, whether they call it proselytizing, witnessing or "logical apologetics""

To which I corrected your ignorance to what "Apologetics" means/is.. It isn't anyone "trying to sell" you anything, Apologetics reacts to questions posed. If one has no desire to HEAR Apologetics they need not ask any questions. I haven't even begun to apply and Apologetics here in our discussion because you've asked no questions that require me to do so.

Yeah. I noticed. I didn't ASK YOU, you asked me, "What questions are you concerned with"?

If I wanted to, I would have asked you questions, but I didn't. That's my choice, right?

Slow down, take a few deep breaths.... Okay, again, I was correcting your idea of Apologetics in the statement you made above.

I'm sure if they are curious, they will ASK YOU.

I have a feeling that you don't often wait for people to ASK YOU...

I'm sure they will if they're interested in learning truth. And you gotta stop assuming, you don't do it very well at all. I know you never asked me any questions about God, Jesus, or Christianity... kinda why I have YET to offer any Apologetics to those topics/questions. Are we CLEAR yet????

Someone asked a question, I answered it. I didn't push it on anyone. I stated my belief. I didn't push people to agree with me or attack them when they didn't. Take a lesson.

Next time add a simple "IMHO" and you won't be read as a hypocrite.

You took it upon yourself to comment on my answer in this thread.

Check that narcissism again, this is a public forum, I can respond to ANY post I decide I want to quote. Is that okay with you?? And I've previously state, I took exception to you use of the fallacy of logic that made it seem that since the people you asked tough questions to didn't answer your questions that somehow that meant you had questions that could not be answered. Which is ludicrously false.

Your user-name is NOTurTypical, but I gotta tell you, what has happened in this thread with you is very typical regarding my interaction with Christians.

Save the personal attacks for someone else who may be wavered by them... probably the same ilk that rationalize with the same fallacies you've displayed for a few pages now.

Originally posted by Wang Tang

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.

A religion is only as good as its worst followers. One of the biggest failures of Islam is its inability to stop its terrorist groups and suicide bombers and dictatorships. One of the biggest failures of Christianity is having such a large group of people who call themselves Christian who don't actually give a crap or know a crap about Christianity. And when you are a Christian and you want answers and you want fellowship and you look around and all you see is fakes, you eventually get discouraged.

That's a nice quip I'll give you that, but logically speaking truth stands on it's own merits. Christianity is defined by the teachings of Christ. Even He said MANY would be wolves in sheeps clothing. There are numerous fakes, and I agree that it's discouraging, but Christianity is about a personal relationship with God that's made possible by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. It's a personal thing between yourself and God, so other's actions shouldn't matter. Jesus said there would be many that were false prophets, teachers, and witnesses.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You're assuming a logical fallacy. I haven't given you enough information to come to that conclusion. You've made it on your own. And I will not give you more fuel for your holy fire. I haven't told you what questions I've had in the past and I haven't implied that there were no answers. I said that my questions went unanswered (not meaning that there were no answers) and that the answers I was given were illusive and not logical.

The rest is assumption on your part.

NEVER has a real Christian called me ignorant, a liar, a hypocrite and a narcissist. If this is your typical approach in your proselytism, it's no wonder you're so angry and frustrated.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


That's a nice quip I'll give you that, but logically speaking truth stands on it's own merits. Christianity is defined by the teachings of Christ. Even He said MANY would be wolves in sheeps clothing. There are numerous fakes, and I agree that it's discouraging, but Christianity is about a personal relationship with God that's made possible by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. It's a personal thing between yourself and God, so other's actions shouldn't matter. Jesus said there would be many that were false prophets, teachers, and witnesses.

If Christianity is all about a personal relationship with God then what is the point of church, what is the point of fellowship? I'm sure you don't intend to say coming together with other Christians is worthless, because from what I experienced in Christianity coming together with other Christians was the single most important thing in spiritual growth. You say others' actions don't matter, but they matter even more in Christianity. When a Christian who you spend a lot of time with is knowledgeable and strong in faith, you grow in spirit. And when a Christian you spend time with is ignorant and weak in faith, your spirit grows weak. Yes, the relationship with God is personal, but Christianity is not a personal path, and that is one of the reasons why I left Christianity. I wanted a personal relationship with God without distractions from other Christians.

If Christianity is all about a personal relationship with God then what is the point of church, what is the point of fellowship? "

OP


This again is the lack of understanding of the times which the prophets fortold.

Church is about going to recieve the sacrafice. Communion which caused saints to reach ecstasy.

" when you come together to break bread. "


We go to recieve and participate in mass. Not go to sit around singing songs without purpose.


OP this thread is a circular argument that will never end.

there is nothing to prove out of it. You left christianity you get stronger.

I joined christianity I got stronger and more peaceful.


So to each his own. Everybodys story is different. Let souls believe, they will let you disbelieve.


peace.