Bloody Sunday Inquiry to rule killings unlawful?

Originally posted by The_Coo
Your support for republican violence is of course support for cold blooded murder....95 percent of the people in NI have moved on and embraced the peace and accepted that Northern Ireland is part of the UK whilst a majority supports this.

Most of the victims (over 3000) where innocent civilians murdered by terrorists on both sides...most of these will never get justice but its time to move on and build a new Northern Ireland and leave the hatred in the past once and for all.

I support peace, and I want justice. The only hatred I have is for the bitter people who keep the hatred going, the people who raise their children to hate catholics/protestants, even now there is teenagers in certain parts of my city on both sides who if they came across someone wearing a football jersey of an opposing team, then they would beat the crap out of that person, they are still being raised to hate the other side and I do want that to stop. If I ever have kids I will not raise them that way.

But people need to know the truth, we can't move on when our local history is reported lies, the british government need to come clean, i want my future kids history books to tell the truth of what happened here.

reply to post by The_Coo


Again I will ask you NOT to write my viewpont for me and I will ask you to point out where I stated I support · "violence"??

Just because I support the republican movement does NOT mean I support violence.

Please do not try and twist my words to support your viewpoint.

The 3000 deaths you have mentioned twice now is starting from which date?? Maybe the link below will explain that it was MANY more.

Again I will point out that I am talking about hundreds of years.

en.wikipedia.org...(Ireland)

Hopefully the people of Northern Ireland can continue living in peace as they have done the past few years.

The decent people of Northern Ireland deserve peace and security and those who are still trying to wreck it by the gun and bomb need to be rounded up once and for all.
[edit on 13-6-2010 by The_Coo]

[edit on 13-6-2010 by The_Coo]

Originally posted by Irish Matador

Your use of words not only shows your rudeness but your post portrays your ignorance.

How have I been rude?
Because I've dared to question you and have a different opinion to you?
And ignorance?
Again because I have a different opinion?

As stated in a previous post I am talking about hundreds of years history not 30 or 40.

I understand that.
I am quite well versed in Irish history.
But at some point you have to let the past go.

The Irish use the past as an excuse for everything.
All of Ireland's failings are blamed on England.
Of course they are to blame for much of Ireland's suffering.
But you wear all your nations grief like a badge of honour.
And at some point you have accept some of the responsibility yourselves.
And that applies equally to all sides of the political and religous divide.

Your impression and understanding of the conflict is flawed and one sided as expected

And you base that statement on two posts in a thread about one event out of thousands of events throughout Irish history.

For your information, I was raised a Catholic and all my grandparents were Irish.
Over the years I have got to know quite a lot of Irish people and consider a few as very good personal friends, from both sides.

I assure you, my opinions are not one-sided and have never been afraid to voice them, sometimes to quite vigorous opposition!

Your view that they were fighting for power over their respective communities is very small minded and portrays your total misunderstaning of the term"freedom fighters".

By the time The Troubles ceased they had long since stopped being a matter of religous or political belief and idealogy.
They were gangsters who ruled their respective communities through fear and their primary concern was profiteering from drug dealing, gun running and racketeering.
Any dissenting voices were treat with vicious reprisals.
They prayed on the romantic nature of the Irish people to perpetuate the circle of hatred.
The terrorists, from both sides, had little regard or concern about the well being of ordinary Irish, hence all the innocents who were brutally murdered in their pursuit of their 'cause'.

Did you learn your Irish history in a Harry Potter book??

LOL.
Not at all.
What I have learnt is the ability to look at and judge things on their own merits and free from any religous or political dogma and rhetoric.

The vast majority of Irish people, from Northern Ireland and The Republic, are just ordinary people who want to get on with their lives free from all that bollocks.




[edit on 13/6/10 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn


Well said , it is more about gangsters and "protection" rackets now.

Whilst at the university in Belfast we had parties with decks, we lived next to republican areas , guns were brought in and held to our heads until we gave up our decks, rucksacks etc. These are people we knew lived down the road but could do nothing.. gangsters!

Did you ever stop and speak to the young men children that joined the army....who stood terrified with guns hands shaking in their boots


Did you know that even after the slaughter of many in Omagh , bomb alerts are still phoned into the local police station.. that sickens me.

I was brought up a Catholic by good parents who kept us on an even keel, and at times I am sure that was difficult with young sons.

I understand that the civil rights march was for one person one vote and it was the right thing to march for, however if the cowards in the IRA used these people as cover , they are cowards of the highest order..

How can people look to the future if one looks at the past. There are many times even in our own past we would chnage things if we could.

To Irish Matador....

I am going to bow out of this thread, it's always a hard one for me to take part in, but i just wanted to say no hard feelings about anything said here.

It's one of those subjects that will raise emotions quicker than most, but i'm a big believer of discussing it here rather than fighting over it, i think there's been enough of that over the years.

There's always two sides of the coin, and i guess we all need to respect each others thoughts on the subject, hard as that may be at times. I appreciate that you (and many others) want justice for Bloody Sunday, the same as i'd have liked those who killed my friends not to have been let out due to the Good Friday Agreement.

I served on the border in S. Armagh and lost friends there, so i have certain thoughts and emotions on the subject, same as you and many others will from another viewpoint.

I have to say though, apart from the times they were trying to kill me lol, i loved N. Ireland and the people too. If it wasn't for the troubles i'd have happily stayed there. I know others who have served may not feel the same, but like i said, everyones different.

It took me years, and i mean a lot of years to change my tune regarding this subject, or at least respect the other opinion on it, and it brings a lump to my throat just speaking about it.

However it does get easier and i like to think that if we can keep it civil here then thats great.

Cheers.

CX.

reply to post by CX


Thank you for your post. It is from the heart and well written and you are a gentleman.

I am not a die hard nationalist. I support the want to have a 32 county Ireland but I have NEVER believed murder or violence could achieve this.

I have alot of admiration that you served your country in such dangerous situations. I am truly sorry for the loss of your comrades and friends. I have never worn those boots so I probably will never understand the real feeling and emotions that such an experience would cause.

I didnt come to this thread to put fuel on the fire but I feel others may have.
Good post OP S&F but I too will bow out gracefully from this thread.

reply to post by Irish Matador


No problem, and thanks to you too.

I don't think it makes a difference if you've worn my boots or not to be honest. I used to think it did. For years i wouldn't speak to anyone about my time there unless they had been through what i had, or at least some kind of experience like it.

However i have learned that everything i've felt, the anger, resentment, sadness, and many many tears have been felt on both sides no matter what you've done or who has been affected.

Just glad things are looking better over there now.

CX.

Originally posted by Irish Matador
The "scum" you speak of were only fighting for their countrys freedom. Rather than the occupying "scum" who got paid a weekly wage with no real reason for being there.

Freedom? Despite a majority of the population, when asked, say they wish to remain a part of the UK? Thats like me blowing up kids and pregnant women for an independant Cornwall. Just because it's something I might want, that gives me NO RIGHT to kill others! You can try and make excuses, but this whole mess was started by a tiny minority of intolerant bastards.

Originally posted by Irish Matador
The peace process worked for both sides. The peace you speak of "that is at hand" is fictional.

The peace process came about because the republican support was waning due to the unecessary killing going on. If they felt they actually had a chance of winning, they wouldn't have negotiated. We could have endured you pointless bombing campaign and not relented one iota.

Originally posted by Irish Matador
For real peace and a cessation in killing...there is only one solution and that is for the English to leave. I dont mean that comment in a rude manner. It is probably an idealistic viewoint but its really the only true solution.

English? Why always blame the English? The majority of NI loyalist population is of Scottish descent, but its fashionable to always blame the English isn't it?

EDIT: I always laugh when I hear of people saying "unite Ireland once again" etc. When was it ever united?

[edit on 14/6/10 by stumason]

Originally posted by stumason


EDIT: I always laugh when I hear of people saying "unite Ireland once again" etc. When was it ever united?

my great ole forefather from long ago was indeed the Celtic military leader Brian Boru (ca. 940-1014) and he indeed was the first king of a united Ireland.

so just call me princess..

anyway i told my son who is 8 this little true tale of late ..and he now wants to see his palace. It's an invisible palace i tell him.. ;]

.dum de dum...

reply to post by BANANAMONTANA


I know Ireland had "High Kings", but these were very weak and there were still Kings of the various smaller Kingdoms which generally did as they pleased and warred with each other.

Originally posted by Irish Matador

Tiocaidh ar la!!!

I know very well as do others what this means, are you sure you spelled it correctly.

It was adopted by IRA supporters so regardless of it's roots, it's become an unofficial slogan of them. Plenty of people would find it offensive, myself included and I grew up a Catholic

As for

For real peace and a cessation in killing...there is only one solution and that is for the English to leave. I dont mean that comment in a rude manner. It is probably an idealistic viewoint but its really the only true solution

do you really think that organised gangsters of both sides will stop killing, who are they going to fight with then? themselves , their grandma.. it's so ingrained the hate in some that they will not let go..

add to that your link to the Famine.. you need to get out more..the world has moved on.. it does not mean the past did not happen..but most prefer not to live in it, we hope to learn from it.

and how to suggest the English leave... buy the boat tickets..? dont be so absurd..

just listen to yourself... "it's the only true solution" what a load of old toot.. go live by yourself for while as most people in Northern Ireland are sick of hearing this crapdoodle.

great work batman

This is a great day for the people of Derry, the truth has finally came out and the British Government has apologized for the actions of the army on Bloody Sunday. It is really sad that it took so long and that some of those who fought to clear their relatives names are now dead themselves and did not get to see it in their lifetime. Every single one of the victims was innocent and unarmed, some shot dead as they tried to help other wounded and some shot in the back as they tried to run away.

I am glad now that the local history of Bloody Sunday will be told correctly and truthfully for the next generations to learn from and that now everyone else knows what we here in Derry have known for decades.

Like I said in another thread maybe now some people can understand why so many people in Northern Ireland joined the IRA, being so infuriated at the actions of the army at a Civil Rights March, many people realized that the peaceful option wasnt working and wanted to fight back, IRA membership grew dramatically after Bloody Sunday.

Today is another step towards peace.

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


I understand and sympathise with everything you have said except I can't understand the logic and reasoning when you say that so many people were that disgusted with the killing of innocent people that they joined an illegal organisation that was ultimately responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent people.

Originally posted by Danbones
Didn't it come out awhile back that
most of the bombings were done
by british inteligence
to provide a false flag reason
to keep the british thumb on the emerald Isle?

This is one of the most non-sequitur statements I've ever read, Try telling that to the 19 soldiers killed at the Warrenpoint Ambush. I think you'd like to read this extract from General Sir Mike Jackson's autobiography "Soldier"; taken from the UK newspaper The Independent:

I arrived at the incident within half an hour of the second explosion. As we circled before landing, I could see two craters and large scorch-marks on the road. I found Barry Rogan, now the senior officer on site, his forehead covered by a field dressing; after a quick briefing, he handed over to me. It was a horrifying scene. There was human debris everywhere - in the trees, on the grass verge and in the water. Mostly unidentifiable lumps of red flesh, but among them torsos, limbs, heads, hands and ears. I had seen the effect of bombs before but never carnage on this scale. When a bomb goes off, the air inside the body is compressed and often forces its way out through the joints. All that was left of the driver of the rear lorry was his pelvis, welded to the seat by the intense heat. In such circumstances your emotions shut down and training takes over.

The Independent link

The British "thumb" remains on the province because its people wish to remain a part of the United Kingdom. I know NORAID and a small but fervent minority in the United States would disagree with that assertion.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Hang on a second, the British army were 'supposedly' here to restore law and order on our streets, where does gunning down innocent civilians come into restoring law and order? How is that protection? They were supposed to be here for a short time to basically give the RUC a break, but no they stayed a good bit longer, abusing catholics, and in their disgusting behaviour towards normal people they unintentionally spurred hundreds on to join the IRA and to fight to get British biased murdering soldiers off our soil.

"British biased murdering soldiers"? Of course a British soldiers is 'biased' towards the state, they're bound by an oath to serve the British national interest wherever it may be. Are you suggesting that Operation Banner was a complete failure? I think on the whole the British Army served with distinction and for the most part, remained disciplined, calm and under control. I think the only problem is the British Army and other units such as the S.A.S were restricted from finishing the job and offing smarmy and loathesome figures such as Messieurs Guiness and Adams. Unfortunately, the Bloody Sunday incident did act as a major recruiting drive for the P.I.R.A and so it did worsen matters. However, this doesn't compute to the whole British Army being incompetent and reckless otherwise we would have had Bloody weekdays on our hands. You try and serve in an area which is part of your homeland (the U.K) where you're meant to protect the locals. All the while they're either spitting or throwing bricks at you whilst you're also under fire from molotov cocktails and the odd sniper rifle. I doubt a month's supply of clean knickers would last you a week.

I'm afraid I find your comments awful to read.

[edit on 15-6-2010 by Retro~Burn]

[edit on 15-6-2010 by Retro~Burn]

Addendum

Normal men and women fed up fighting for rights via the peaceful route ( Civil Rights marchs where you could get shot by the British army/murderers ) catholics were fighting for adequate housing, votes, proper healthcare, jobs, all of which were readily available to the protestants. The Peaceful march on Bloody Sunday was calling for an end to internment, where catholics were being lifted from the streets, beaten and sent to jail without being told why or what the crime was they had supposedly committed.

Did this necessitate a campaign in which a child was killed whilst cycling past a rubbish bin with a bomb inside? Perhaps the cadet who lost his hand and sight after a package was sent to a Territorial Army base? Let's not forget the Omagh, Enniskillen, Birmingham bombings and many others.

The posters on this thread should take a step back from the keyboard not get involved in tit-for-tat posts.

The Brits should realise that:
1. numerous UK goverments have failed the catholic community in NI
2. Civil rights have not been adhered to in relation to catholic community
3. Not all men (and women) in an British Army uniform are angels. There are plenty of those who are serving to fulfill their own agenda.

The Irish should realise that:
1. The republican paramilitaries were not saints
2. There are/were those serving their own agenda from within the republican paramilitary groups who acted more like gangsters/drug barons than freedom fighters
3. Innocent people were targeted by republican paramilitaries

If we can all understand that sometimes 'our own' people make mistakes or do wrong, then maybe one day, peace can have a chance. As things stand, peace is taking root in NI but like a new flower, it must be handled with care otherwise it will wither and die but I am sure that the good people of the six counties wont let that happen.

Peace

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by BANANAMONTANA

 

I know Ireland had "High Kings", but these were very weak and there were still Kings of the various smaller Kingdoms which generally did as they pleased and warred with each other.

Hmm I dont think Brian Boru winning the battle of clontarf in 1014 against 6,000 -7, 000 vikings is a sign of weakness .

I think you may find that In 1016 Sweyn Forkbeard's son, Canute, became King of England. He was a viking.


that sir is primary school history.

hmmm

[edit on 16-6-2010 by BANANAMONTANA]

reply to post by BANANAMONTANA


Only Irish primary school history though Most folks outside of Ireland are completely ignorant to it's turbulent history, only having bits an pieces from wikipedia and alike.

The families have had justice served and this is yet another massive step forward, doesn't matter how long it took, or how much money. At least this was not a white wash like the Chilcot enquiry.
As for the people suggesting that the soldiers should not receive a jail term because paramilitaries were free'd due to the Good Friday agreement, you in the same breath conclude that IRA etc are murdering terrorists, therefore you have drawn a parallel that to me suggests that the soldiers are in the same boat.
The Catholics did not beg for the British military to be sent in the Northern Ireland government did, which was at the time not truly representative of both sides of the community, nationalists in the beginning of deployment were happy the soldiers were there yes that is true. However it became very clear that the army had no intentions of keeping their commitments to provide community protection particularly with the heavy handed treatment of Catholics primarily. The Northern Ireland issue should have been a policing matter from the beginning, and if they police had been representative of both the Catholic and Protestant communities the problems would never have got as bad as they did, and yes after the Bloody Sunday massacre recruitment into republican paramilitaries increased dramatically perpetuating problems. I believe these soldiers have probably tortured themselves everyday since this tragic event and that a trial is perhaps a waste of time, however if the families of those murdered feel it's a good idea then they are the only people qualified to speak on the matter IMO.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by Big Raging Loner]

reply to post by Ulala


Ridiculous. All I can say about your comment really. If one of your family was murdered would you forget about it, let it go?... Nope didn't think so, seriously what planet are you from? This case was about the families of those murdered first and foremost they wanted justice, and they got it.