Why doesn't God intervene? A question to the religious among you..

reply to post by kiwifoot


this was the exact question that moved me away from the catholic church and towards self realization.

the answers to this question, and so many others, are right there, within you. in a way that you i couldn't possibly try and describe or convince you of. it is something that you have to search for yourself and will come to know as truth.

keep asking and keep searching and you will find the answers - and with those answers will come an amazing amount of peace.

We limit God.

We limit God.

Originally posted by kiwifoot

I am struggling deeply with this, I cannot beleive that there is a God when I see these examples.

Any thoughts ATS?

DISCLAIMER: Please don't let this be interpreted as an anti-religion thread. It's a serious, well intentioned question.

All the best ATS, Kiwi

[edit on 13-6-2010 by kiwifoot]

At the same time that you observe these many incidents 1 must understand that GOD overall knows where these childrens souls that have suffered that you speak of OP will be going.

Yes from a LIVING perspective it does seem as if the lord doesnt care for these innocent children. But what has to be remembered is that EXISTANCE is more complex then LIVING and DYING. So to beings that are currently within the LIFE/DEATH phase it is almost impossible to understand the full extent of what goes on beyond life and death, even if those poor childrens souls are now waiting in a safer place for judgment day for the rest us who shall be slain. Its just since they are baby souls they havent had time to become natural sinners and are evaluated different during judgment then souls that had time to develope the sin.

I wish you could see beyond this life/death OP and see that those children are safer and within the hands of perfection now. Somewhere we are all trying to get, I hope.

Originally posted by Village Idiot

Originally posted by The time lord
God works on a global scale, his prime purpose right now is with Israel, those who are against it are with the devil who want to break God's final promise of the end days to the Jews.

How on Earth did Israel creep into this?

So in other words, God is busy with Israel at the moment, no time for anything else?

There lies your answer Kiwifoot, he is too busy with the chosen ones!

Interesting point, which means that what the people view as the God of this world is actually Satan (money, material wealth, political power, wealth).

That reverend Hagee dude said
Hitler was doing gods work.
Hitler even said Germany was fulfilling Christian principles
which implies he hates Jews who didn't go from Germany to Israel
but liked wealthy Jews who already lived in all the other countries
he liked George Soros for turning in Jews to Hitler- look how well rewarded he has been sinse.

A whole bunch of people in this forum maintain god is protecting Israel
which implies he hates aid workers (good Samaritans)
He doesn't want Gazan babies to have chocolate or crayons or a life

GWB maintained it was god's will to go into Iraq
Since the provisional gov which was run by Americans took away all the women's rights straight away, It implies god hates women (and the idea that they might have rights), and after seeing what the DU residue is doing to the children......

A fundie was just telling me the other day that god was destroying the Christian country of America because it had become apostate.
So I said:
so...You are telling me god is destroying America
because it's full of christians........?

Funny
Are the fundies still funding this fun?

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Danbones]

hey - a great thread kiwi

i really chuckle at some of the explainations as to why this aleged god did not intervene in the cases you cite

the " explainations " kind of neatly falsifie all the claims of " divine miracles " that are trotted out

and the killer question for any one who actually believes in divine miracle :

why does god hate amputeees ?

hey there has never been an alleged / claimed incidence of a divine miravle restoring an amputated limb - has there ?

so why does god hate amputees ???????????????????

The body complex is just a tool....it does not make us who we are, as soul/spirit complexes.

God (the image of God used in religions is very humanized) is like the mind, which processes and reprocesses information. Thee does not do miracles....and does not intervene. The experiences is for souls to learn things, a baby dying may not be so much for that soul to learn, but another soul around it to learn. As much as we love peace, joy, and nice things....this world is built apone cause and affect...and offers dualities to 'peace, joy, and nice things'.

The body of the child, is not what makes that child, nor is that the 'body' that is in the highest image of 'God'. Some soul/spirit complexes, when they have learned what they are need of from Earth...will offer themselves back to another person, being the catalysts for another person to 'awaken', to observe past themselves, past their own body complex. Sometimes this offering back to purpose of the Divine Will of the Spirit complex, the soul will incarnate into a body complex to 'play victim'. Some people want to bring karma into things like this, but my understanding of karma usually does not occur during a the age of a child. I think if things happen to young children, we see two things, a soul that is aware that the body complex is not what make it 'it'....and soul that has offered it self to be part of the duality here in this world.

Things like a child dying horribly, raises empathy levels in people. High empathy levels is actually a vibration of mankind that takes a long time to get to on massive scales. It is a good thing that more people are becoming very empathetic. It is though, hard to control empathy, and its easy to get lost in the feelings it brings.

Just my take
LV

[edit on 14-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by kiwifoot


The thing is that God is not some separate entity in the sky. God is everything. God is in you and you are in God. I'll quote a site that was helpful to me in understanding this:

The first false god is God himself, that is to say God conceived as the lord and master of creation. That type of God is a human construction, an image of God that has deeply influenced your culture.

You are the center of your universe, the standard and touch stone of your world. There is no God outside of you who knows better or who determines things for you. Not only does the God you formerly projected outside of you, reside in you, this God is not all-knowing either. The divine principle in you and all of creation is a playful force, growing and evolving in open and unpredictable ways.

Doing things wrong, making mistakes, is all right and it may even bring you greater growth than trying to avoid mistakes. In the “bad things” the seed of light is dormant. Only by experiencing the bad from within, can you experience the good as beautiful, pure and true. You cannot learn “from without”. You, God inside of you, has plunged into the deep (into material reality) to become knowing through experience, not to apply knowledge to experience. In that sense, not many things are non-spiritual. All experience is sacred and meaningful. Do not let yourself be guided by outside rules, dictating what is healthy, right and spiritual for you to do. The touch stone is your own heart: if it feels right for you, then it is okay. Let go of anything else

reply to post by blujay


Hey Blujay-really enjoyed what you just posted!

So many want to see God as 'outside' of us, beyond us somewhere...so I have a hard time finding the right words to use that will show 'we are of Thee, and Thee of us'.

I believe, the united part of us, in consciousness, in God....see again, having trouble with words....we were in total knowing of bringing this world into manifestation, with its laws, energy's, the blueprint of duality and cause and affect, the experience that it seems that 'we are lost and know nothing'. We created it like this...is what I think....so the question is....we need to ask ourselves, why did we make such a emanation....or for those that 'needs' God as something separate from them, same question applies.....'why did God make this type of emanation'.

Its much easier for people (me at one time) to think, this world is a mistake, we suffer for something that has been wrongly done, this world is a screw up by someone.

When I started seeing....this world is exactly as it was meant to be....I learn much more about my purpose, others purposes, and Earths purpose for us.

Always my best to you
LV

FACT:


The SUN--(Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy)-(note:NOT the milky way) As far back as 10 000 BC history of mankind have been drawing wonderful carvings and showing respect in different ways of this object. Which is very simple to understand since the sun rises every morning giving warmth and security and saving us from the bitter darkness of night. Without it the cultures of the world understood, the crops would not grow and the life on the planet would simply not survive, and this makes the sun the most adored object of all time.

Stars- The cultures were also very aware of the stars,shining bright on them during the nights. The tracking of the stars learned them to anticipate events and track things like eclipses and full moons over a long period of time. They also made a Catalog of the stars into something we per today call Constellations.

Cross of the Zodiac- The zodiac symbol is well known. It is one of the oldest images in human history. It reflects the sun traveling through its 12 Constellations over the course of the year (365 days,and ofc the 12 months) the 4 seasons,the soltices, and the two equinoxes. The term zodiac relates to the fact that constellations were personified. Meaning that the early civilisations didnt only follow the sun and stars,but personified them,making myths which were following their movements,relationships and experiences. The sun with its lifegiving and saving qualities were personified into a representative of the unseeing creator or god-Gods sun,the light of the world and saviour of humankind. Likewise the 12 constellations represented the places of travel for gods sun. And were given names usually by elements of nature which happened at that period of time. Example: aquarious,the water bearer-who bring the spring rain

Horus-- *Egyptian God 3000 BC *Hourus had an enemy called Seth-They would battle everyday until one of them won. Hourus(Light) VS Seth(dark)Every morning Hourus would win against the darkness, and at night Seth would beat the light of hourus and send him into the underworld.
( Change from daynight).

*Born on Dec.25th.
*Born a virgin.
*Star in the east (his birth was accompanied by a star in the east).
*Adored by 3 kings.
*At the age of 12 he was a preacher and a teacher.
*At the age of 30 he was baptised by a figure called anaph and started his ministry *Horus had 12 deciples.
*Performing miracles,like healing the sick,and walking on water.
*Horus was known by many names-"Lamb of God,The Light,Gods Sun,the truth.
*After he got betrayed by his friend Typhon he got Crucified.
*Buried for 3 days.
*Ressurected. ---------

Attis
*Greece 1200 BC
*Born on Dec 25th *Performed miracles
*Crucified
*Dead for 3 days
*Ressurected .....

Krishna
*India 900 BC
*Born a virgin
*Star in the east
*Performed miracles with his deciples
*Dead 3 days
*Ressurected .........

Dyonisis
*Greece-500 BC
*Born a Virgin
*Born on 25th Dec
*Performed miracles with his deciples.
*Names like"King of kings,gods son,alpha omega Ect"
*Ressurected after 3 days -----

Mithra
*Persia-1200 BC
*Born a virgin
*Born on 25th Dec.
*12 Deciples.
*Performed miracles.
*Dead for 3 days
*Ressurected.
*Names "the truth ect ect"
*Worshipday\restingday sunday -----

Jesus Christ
*Born on Dec 25th
*Star in the East
*3 Kings
*Teacher at 12
*At age of 30 baptised and started his ministry.
*12 Deciples,performing miracles.
*Known as "Alpha and omega,Sun of god,lamb of god ect"
*Betrayed by his friend judas.
*Dead 3 days
*Ressurected
*Crucified These are just some of the many million recorded Personifications through earth religion history per today.

But why?Why the same attributes?

*Birth Sequence-- This is 100% astrological.The star in the east is SIRIUS,the brightest star in the night sky,which on the Dec 24th allignes with the 3 brightest stars on the Orions Belts! These 3 stars are per today called the same as for the ancient times. The 3 Kings. The Sirius star and the 3 kings all point to where the sunrise comes at the Dec 25th="Birth of Gods Sun" atWinter Soltice.

*Virgin Mary- The virgin mary is the constellation VIRGO or also known as VIRGO THE VIRGIN,Virgo were also referred to as "The House of Bread". Bethlehem translated means "The house of bread",which is then again referred to VIRGO, a place in the sky and not on earth. There is also something very interresting happening around the DEC 25th or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice the days become shorter and colder,from a perspective of the northern hemosphere the sun appears to move south and gets smaller. The shortening of the crops and the closer you get into the winter solstice,it represented "DEATH" for the ancient civilisations,it was the death of the SUN.After moving south for 6 months At DEC 22 the sun is at its lowest point in the sky,but then something weird happens. The sun actually STOPS moving south, for 3 days,22-23-24 DEC,and during these 3 days pause the sun reside in the vecinity of the southern crosscrux constellation. After the 3 days pause at DEC 25,the sun moves 1 degree north giving hope for longer days,warmth and spring. And thus it was said. The sun Died on the cross,was dead for 3 days,and then ressurected again giving hope. --- 12 Deciples * This is simply the 12 constellations wich jesus(the sun) travels about with. Ever seen the cross behind jesus head?on pictures? Well its simply the cross of the zodiac. Cause jesus is the sun,the sun of god,the light of the world. John 9:5 *As long as i am in the world I am the light of the world. John 14:3 *And if i go and prepare a place for you,I WILL COME AGAIN,and receive you. As it does every morning.Defending the horrors of darkness and so on.


You ask who god is? The closest we humans have been to a GOD is the annunaki. The annunaki also believed there was a GOD, but they tried the same as us, find the god within themselves.


[edit on 14-6-2010 by Archirvion]

reply to post by Archirvion


Better yet, try the energy within the Sun, is the same energy within the stars, is the same energy within you/me/everyone.

The to and fro, the life itself, exsistence, conciousness....is the closest we get to 'God'. The Holy Spirit of life is within every single religion, every single culture, every single being, every single to and fro where life 'IS'.

The personifications are for the ones that need a understanding of the mysterious.

You have posted those dates in another thread about the birth of those people and 'facts' of them.....but going by the original stories of those people, alot of those 'facts' can not be found.

Yes there is a mystery to the path of the stars and the cycles of the cosmos that we are connected to. The mystery though, is the enrgy itself that is connecting us to everything around us.

Its defiantly Quantum.

My oppinion: IF there is that God, that religion want us to believe in, then i believe he just doesn't give a # about us.
I mean, if this God created us, he may have come to the conclussion that he did bad work, he #ed up the planet (volcanoes, earthquakes, storms and so son), he #ed up his project "human", because humans are so faulty, it's not even funny and i don't even restrict it to all the violence and wars, just take a look at a human: he get's sick, get all kind of diseases, dies from them, he can't survive under water, basically, we haven't much abilities and aren't capable of much. Even animals aren't that great of an invention.
So i believe, that if that God exists, he has abandoned us, just like people abandon failed projects.
(And that makes him an asshole in my book, if i ever meet god i kick his ass )

In reality there is no god and # just happens.

reply to post by ShadowAngel85


My son is proof that God exists.

Like God, I will never abandon my son.

Originally posted by ShadowAngel85
My oppinion: IF there is that God, that religion want us to believe in, then i believe he just doesn't give a # about us.
I mean, if this God created us, he may have come to the conclussion that he did bad work, he #ed up the planet (volcanoes, earthquakes, storms and so son), he #ed up his project "human", because humans are so faulty, it's not even funny and i don't even restrict it to all the violence and wars, just take a look at a human: he get's sick, get all kind of diseases, dies from them, he can't survive under water, basically, we haven't much abilities and aren't capable of much. Even animals aren't that great of an invention.
So i believe, that if that God exists, he has abandoned us, just like people abandon failed projects.
(And that makes him an asshole in my book, if i ever meet god i kick his ass

)

In reality there is no god and # just happens.

Its not much that something outside of us beyond us 'created' us....but yet we emanated from something prior to us....

The idea of God being this 'being' just watching us suffer and struggle is very far from truth.

Energy just is....and yet many things emanate from energy, many different forms manifest. Kinda the same thing....many different things emanate from 'God'....many different forms manifest.

Nothing is messed up, everything as is was meant to be, we have not been abandoned, for you would not be alive if it was not for the life force of the Spirit within you now.

Its up to you to react how you do, to see things in the perspective as you do. Its a hard pill to swallow to think this world is not a error or mistake.

Just my take, is all
LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by blujay

 

Hey Blujay-really enjoyed what you just posted!

So many want to see God as 'outside' of us, beyond us somewhere...so I have a hard time finding the right words to use that will show 'we are of Thee, and Thee of us'.

I believe, the united part of us, in consciousness, in God....see again, having trouble with words....we were in total knowing of bringing this world into manifestation, with its laws, energy's, the blueprint of duality and cause and affect, the experience that it seems that 'we are lost and know nothing'. We created it like this...is what I think....so the question is....we need to ask ourselves, why did we make such a emanation....or for those that 'needs' God as something separate from them, same question applies.....'why did God make this type of emanation'.

Its much easier for people (me at one time) to think, this world is a mistake, we suffer for something that has been wrongly done, this world is a screw up by someone.

When I started seeing....this world is exactly as it was meant to be....I learn much more about my purpose, others purposes, and Earths purpose for us.

Always my best to you
LV

HI LV,

It's when I started to realize that it is all inside of us, that things slowly began to make sense. I was once one of those, like you, believing it was a screw up. I didn't understand the suffering, and surely if there really was a GOD, 'HE' should come right here and fix this mess.

All of those thoughts place the power outside of our selves. We are it. And as a collective, we created this playground to have these experiences, gosh-awful as they may seem to us, for just that, the EXPERIENCE.

All is unfolding just as it should. This is what has been created, or co-created by US. Our focus as a whole will determine where we go next. Like watching a movie that we can direct with our own intent.

reply to post by ignorant_ape

why does god hate amputeees ?

How sad to believe people can't be whole without all their limbs.

I don't think you can get much more superficial than that.

No wonder it's so difficult for you to grasp the concept of a God with no limits.

peace

[edit on 14-6-2010 by silo13]

reply to post by blujay

All is unfolding just as it should.

It is so refreshing for me, to cross paths with others that hold this vision.

This is why I think there are leaps being made in this time....for more are starting to see it this way. This will help us, become all that we can be, instead of holding ourselves back.

Im not religious anymore, but certain things ring true from some religious books....one of those things is 'we are to go on and do better things'....and 'we are to move mountains'.

To me, this says....it is up to us. Our perception of things matters. Ifi we sit and wait on something outside of us to fix us...what do we learn? If we step up and see that we must do something about it all...become all we can be as a unit...then mabey mountains will move.

All my best
LV

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Originally posted by Hellas
because that would be against the "free will" he gave mankind.

Yep.

I was waiting for that mate.

Seriously, if you love someone, are a all powerful God, would allow a young baby to suffer %85 burns and scald to death?

I'm sorry, it doesn't wash.

In fact, that's almost obscene on the face of it.

It is the Abraham beliefs that is hanging you up.

If you have one life to live , then these thing don't make sense.

If you have thousands of lives in order to learn all there is to know about 3 dimensional reality, then look at the big picture. Each life is a learning process for not just you but everyone your life touches.

We are here to learn and experience EVERYTHING no matter how ugly because these meat suits are not who we are.

Age old question, and regretfully not many people are able to answer it. There are two major questions here that need to be separated though.

1)Why do bad things happen to good people?
2) Why does God let those bad things happen if He has the power to stop them?

Often times one or the other of these questions come up and people only address part of it.I have a few suggestions taken directly from scripture since we are assuming that we are talking about a compassionate God such as what the Bible speaks of. If we are just talking about some "powerful energy" than the questions are pointless because "energy" in itself cant make decisions about doing what's right. I apologize if they have been mentioned already. I didn't read everyone's responses.

First, why do bad things happen to "good" people?

1) Satan. Sometimes, terrible things happening are the direct work of Satan. He will do anything he can to mess things up and cause God's children to suffer. Context of this verse: Jews weren't supposed to work on the Sabbath, and healing was considered work. The teachers of the law got mad at Jesus healing for healing this lady. Special attention to verse 16, where Satan is to blame for the woman's infirmity. I cut out some verses for space. Please read the whole thing for yourself at some point. I don't want people claiming I took this out of context.

Luke 13: 10-17

10On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity." 13Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

...

16Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

In the book of Job, his entire family is killed as a result of Satan. This is one reason bad things happen to innocent people.

2) Free will. I know you've heard it, but it is one key reason. If I choose to kick you in the shin for no reason, doesn't matter how innocent you are, you are suffering for my choice. Jesus was perfect, yet he was brutally beaten, flogged, and crucified because one man chose to betray him, and others choose to falsely convict him, and others decided to kill him.

3) It just happens. This isn't the one you tell to a grieving mother of course. We live in a world that was made perfect but has become imperfect because of our decisions and actions. In a "Paradise" type scenario, floods and tornadoes wouldn't kill people. Buildings wouldn't collapse and bury innocent families and children. In this corrupted world, bad things just happen.

Luke 13:4-5
4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Context: Some people were speaking with Jesus about the suffering of some people and wondering why such bad things happened to these people. They would have seen it as God's judgment on them. Jesus responds by telling them that the people were no more guilty or innocent than anyone else, but everyone dies eventually. By telling them to repent or perish, he is warning them for the eternal since it is destined that every man die once, innocent or guilty.

Ok, now for the harder part of the question in my opinion. Why does God "let" the bad things happen when he has the power to stop it?

In response to the bad things done because of Satan...
Most of Satan's attacks will be against God's people, and so they would view it as a test of their faith or an attack from their enemy. The recognize that their reward will come later and so they persevere.

In response to injury caused by free will...
God takes our free will THAT seriously. I mean, He also let us decide whether or not to listen to Him, which resulted in Him having to pay the price for our screw ups. He wants us to choose Him, and that is why He won't mess with our free will. But we don't always choose what is good for ourselves or for each other. We can choose to harm others, and our actions also grieve the heart of God.

In response to the "they just happen"...
This is the hardest part of all. An all powerful God could prevent any random bad thing from happening. For some reason, He chooses not to and we don't understand that. Any person with a heart would prevent something terrible from happening to somebody they loved if they had the ability to do so.

While not the case with the babies, young children, etc., we have to remember that no person is completely guilt free. None of us are perfect. The Bible says that the punishment for our sins (rebellion against God) is death. God didn't want us to have to pay that price, so He paid it for us through the death of His son, Jesus Christ. When people sinned for the first time, death entered the world. While we may still die, we will rise again to live for eternity in a place where death no longer exists, and neither does pain or suffering.

I guess what I'm trying to say to this is 3-part.

1) We are still responsible for causing the world to corrupt. God designed the world to be perfect so that pain and suffering would not exist.

2) God has already dealt with the ultimate punishment for us. We may die and suffer for a while in this life, but we will live forever because of what He has already done for us.

3) God has plans to make it so these things don't happen. They may happen now, and they break His heart. That is why He is going to stop it. He has to wait to end that suffering though because He is waiting on us to turn to Him.

2 Peter 3:9

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And this is the promise spoken of...

Revelation 21:3-4

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

If you believe that we indeed have a soul and that we are immortal beings, then a few years of experience here on earth is just a very small fraction of our existence. Earth is like a school house and we are here to experience duality or as we call them, the good and the bad.

In all our incarnations here on earth, which now stretches to thousands of years (if not millions), we basically have experienced almost all the experiences we have to experience in a 3rd density life. We have been a victim in some of our lives and we have also been the aggressors in some. We have been rich and we have been poor. We have been girls and we have been boys.

This present time is the end of our duality. December 21, 2012 is the culmination of our 3rd density existence and we are moving on to the 5th dimension together with Mother Earth, which is what is also known as Ascension. I have to clarify though that only those who have raised their vibration (i.e. happiness, love, forgiving, etc.) and have already transcended the lower vibrations (i.e. fear, anger, hatred, etc.) will be moving with earth into 5th dimension. Those who were not able to raise their frequency will continue with their 3rd density life in another planet with similar vibration as they are.