the abortion issue

If you're against abortion...DON'T HAVE ONE!

Simple as that really. I'd prefer to see the baby carried to term, and then adopted, but there are many, many reasons for abortions. That said, because of the many reasons, there are many effects to society... For instance, terminating the pregnancy, when it is known that a child will have serious birth defects, and a poor quality of life, eases the burden to society (and/or it's parents) as to medical, financial support as well as prevents a life of suffering for the child to be. Another example is the child of a raped woman. In many cases, he may feel unwanted (and indeed, could even be hated as a reminder of the crime) by his mother, thus becoming a criminal element of society. Just by taking two examples, you can see the impact to society, so it's difficult to even start answering your query...

Could it be that the "decision" of whether to have an abortion is part of a complex learning process regarding physical life?

A close friend of mine had an abortion twenty years ago and deeply regrets it to this day. Through many years of emotional pain, she has learned what was true in her heart (soul) through this action and would never have had the abortion with her current knowledge. The question arises if she could have educated herself properly prior to the abortion. She says no...that she had to feel the trauma and suffering to get the picture. What if the fetus in this woman was placed there based on a universal learning process and it was never intended for the baby to be born in the first place?

Every living soul on this plane of existence is here to experience life and learn from it...there are no exceptions. Is there any sense to crib death or other events which claim the lives of children? All that's left after these tragedies are the "learned" emotions of the surviving family and friends.

It would be an awful shame if all individual knowledge gained by an earthbound soul would be lost when crossing the foggy river.

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what an amazing post deleted - can't tell you how much that hits a chord with me in fact.

Its been interesting so far that despite seeing comments from people about abortion and society in other threads, none of the authors have yet come here to explain what they meant

arc,

I get carried away once in a while. As a habit, I try not to become involved in spats over the choices an individual can make in their lifetime, but every now and then, I need to say what I feel...this was one of those occasions.

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O.K. here I go.... First off I will tell ya, I am pro-life. I have heard the argument about rape, let me tell ya the unborne child in you didn't rape you. Two wrongs don't make a right. I guess I am somewhat extreme though, I don't kill anything I am not planning to eat. (Exception, someone or something is endangering me, my family or friends... They or it may as well put the head between their legs, grab their ankles and kiss their _____ goodbye.)
But back to the point, I really didn't get on here to give my views but rather some interesting points that were brought up in my "Age of Enlightenment" class back in college.
One thing brought up was, A woman is about to have an abortion and at the last minute changes her mind, her daughter is borne and 25 years later discovers the cure for AIDS and saves millions. If she had the abortion, in a way she would be responsible for millions of deaths. (Deep isn't it) lol
Another possibility that was brought up was that a woman was allowed 1 abortion, it was immediately followed by a complete histerectomy (misspelled?) so that it would never happen again.
Like I said these aren't my ideas, but I thought they may have some relevance in this conservation.

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Be Cool
K_OS

thanks for your views but I have to stress yet again that I didn't set this up to be an 'abortion - right or wrong?' discussion.

I am asking those who believe it is a cause of societies problems or even an indicator of other problems to explain their point of view in more detail

arc say's

"I am asking those who believe it is a cause of societies problems or even an indicator of other problems to explain their point of view in more detail"

My mother had an abortion. It would have been her sixth child and the youngest. I believe that act affected me and my brother and sisters in life. I was the middle child. Even though abortions were illegal back than the doctor did it. Stating my mothers health was at risk, due to high blood pressure. (Which she did not have) When my mother had this done my father was at work. Dad knew nothing about it. My grandmother took my mother to get the deed done. She felt my mother already had too many children. Needless to say when dad found out things were NEVER the same. Now there are only three of us left. My oldest sister died in infancy and my brother took his own life.
Even today it remains in the back of my mind. It could have been me. I'm not bragging but I've saved a few lives) Would those persons be dead too, if I was aborted? And who knows what my little sister or brother could have done????

Fien arc heres my view. Society has be come corrupt and immoral, and human life is no longer sacred. Abortion is just another way of shaking our fists in the Lord's face. How would you feel if your mother said " Oh honey, I thought of getting you aborted." Not so great huh?

Mountain Star it sounds like your mother was forced into abortion, and I am totally against that unless there is strong medical evidence that the mother's life is at risk. I also disagree completely with existing children being told of their mother's decision - yes it would make you think 'could it have been me?'

Most of the women I have met who have been through a termination have been childless, young and either single or in very poor relationships. They have fully appreciated that a life has been ended and mourned that life for many years after. However they took the decision with much thought and believe what they did was right for them at that time in their life.

On a society wide level, I cannot see how a woman's decision over her personal life reflects on the rest of society. I agree society does not seem to value life in the same way, but we are not exposed to birth and death in the same personal way as maybe 100 years ago, seeing most of it via tv instead of face to face. Most of us never even kill our own food anymore - I know small children in inner cities who don't realise milk comes from cows and the meat they eat was once a living animal.

heh, I think we should forget about the abortion issue and start selective reproduction. What I mean is that people should have to get papers or somthing before they decide to have a baby. It'd be a great way to monitor the birth rate, eventhough we'd see a decrease.

If you can prove that you can financially and emotionally take care of a child, you can have one. (I think some of the third world countries should start this one)

lol joe, much as that idea makes sense can you imagine the public uproar? It's odd though that it's harder to adopt a child or buy a pet from a rescue centre than it is to have your own child.

You kind of have a point there. It'd be impossible to enforce. I think we should have done that to begin with, that way there would be no problems with it.

arc,

My grandmother (my mothers mom) was domineering, over my mother. However, I don't think it took much persuasion on her part. You are right we should have never been told. When I grew older I asked my mother, if any of us kids was a mistake? Do know what she said?? "Yes, figure it out!" My first sister died in infancy and my other sister was born five years later. Than my brother was born five years after that. Than me nine months later. My baby sister is five years younger than me. The one that was aborted would have been a year younger. I told my mother it was me wasn't it? She quickly responded yes!

Firstly I very much agree with joe hayner. People should only be allowed kids if they can show they have the responsability to bring them up. That is probably the cause of more social ills these days than any number of abortions. You need a license to drive a car or own a dog but any idiot can bring a child into the world and drag it up.

Second, I get the feeling that this issue is being addressed as another of the evils of modern living but the fact is woman have been deliberatly aborting for thousands of years using a variety of methods, herbal, medical you name it some one somewhere's done it. Nothing new under the sun!

Originally posted by arc
Since I've joined this board I have noticed in quite a few threads that some people have mentioned in passing the issue of abortion. Usually to blame the fact that it is legal for most of modern society's problems. Can any of you who feel this way please elaborate on how exactly you think it affects society?

OK here we go. I hope no one gets mad here but I'm going to tell it like I see it!! First off we shouldn't call it abortion, we should call it premeditated murder, because that is what it is.
It affects society the same way anyone else getting killed does. That person is no longer here to make their impact on society.
I hate hearing the argument its the womans body. That's like saying you are in my house so its OK to kill you. Another impact on society is how can we tell our kids that murder is wrong when it is protected by the courts.
I'm not speaking from a religious stand point I am speaking from a moral one. MURDER IS MURDER!
It doesn't matter if the child is only 2 weeks old (Still in the womb), 5 years old or 35 years old. The fact that people can murder children and it is protected by the courts shows that as a society we have alot and I mean ALOT to learn.
I hear about late term abortions, and people say the children can't survive. Let me tell ya my first daughter was born at 26 weeks. 26 weeks, that is still borderline second trimester. People have abortions this late in their pregnancy. She is now 6, (knock on wood) has never had any health problems and is the second tallest child in her class.
Women say I should have a choice, well I agree and you do. Have sex or Don't. There's your choice.
I know some of you are already getting ready to bring up rape. I can go on about that too but I won't right now. If you "accidentally" get pregnant and you don't want the child give it up for adoption, don't kill it.

This is alot like the AIDS epidemic. I can fix that problem too. Don't sleep with everyone that walks. I mean hell its an STD, its not you can walk down the street and someone sneezes and boom you have AIDS.
Geeze.
Sorry but I have listened to about all I can on these subjects. Let's worry about things that are difficult to fix. Not problems that can be resolved by simply not having sex.
Sorry all but like I said I'm really "SICK" and tired of people killing children and then using its my body as an argument for it and then the law, as it usually does, persecuting the victims and protecting the criminals.
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Be Cool
K_OS

seeing as you are a parent K_OS I can totally appreciate your views and just because they differ with mine does not mean I am offended.

However say for example when your daughter grows up, and possibly makes an error of judgement resulting in her becoming pregnant at 18, would you force her to go through with that pregnancy even if she was greatly distressed by the entire experience and had no partner willing to support her?

I think it would be illegal for me to force her to go through with it but I would like to hope that I have raised her well enough that she would make the right decision. Having a partner to support you in my oppinion is highly overrated. But if it were to happen and she couldn't raise it, she knows that I would raise it for her. After all its not the babies fault if she made a mistake.
P.S. I never see life as a mistake... only an oppotunity.
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Be Cool
K_OS

[Edited on 14-3-2003 by K_OS]

thanks for answering that one K_OS. I wasn't trying to defend abortion by asking you, just curious about what your response would be.

I've done a little reading up on the subject and am noticing that there seems to be some difference between american and british law on abortion, which maybe explains why I have encountered a stronger pro-life opinion on this board than I have when a similar subject was raised on the totally british board I usually post on.

I can understand totally the horror expressed by some people over partial birth abortion, which is very rarely practiced by the NHS unless there is severe risk to the life of the mother. The usual scenario is that a woman must be interviewed by a doctor and found to be at risk of either physical or mental harm if the pregnancy is not ended, the termination is then usually carried out at 12 weeks. Most of the women I know who have taken this route have been young, suffering various forms of depression or other mental health problems and in a vunerable position. Often these have been contributing factors in the admittedly irresponsible behaviour that has resulted in the pregnancy. It is felt that pregnancy with it's attendant hormonal changes and stresses could increase the problems, which is why many do not opt for birth and then adoption. These women do not take the choice lightly, it is a life that is being ended and I have known many who mourned for years over a decision that was the lesser of two evils.

I've sidetracked myself here as I didn't start this thread to argue the rights and wrongs of what is a grey area. The effect on society itself was the original topic and I must say I haven't encountered the view that it is a reflection on the moral decline of society before joining this board. Hence my curiousity as to the deeper reasoning behind that viewpoint.

On a side note... My mother was told that she could never have children. The doctors told her that the birth process would kill her and the baby. However when she was 24 she became pregnant with me. Well its 26 years later and I still stop and eat breakfast with her every Monday through Friday on my way to work. (She is a dietician for the local Hospital.)

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Be Cool
K_OS

i belive you should only abort if aboslutely nessesary, children do not ask to be born, and if they are brought into an inviroment that is unstable it is not fair on them, prevention is better than cure if alot of people in bad situations, like drug addiction alcoholism, starvation choose to bring a child into the world in that enviroment i belive they are being alot more selfish than sombody who would abort in the same situation, everychild deserves a loving mother and father figure, and stability, to bring them into the world without this is more selfish in my eyes, than aborting