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Give me liberty, or give me death

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posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
I would say that is a net-positive regardless. The percentage of the population that are not White Christian Males in the United States vastly outnumbers the percentage that are. To say they, the majority are more free (and I would add have far more rights) than any period in history means that things are better.


I wouldn't disagree, merely pointing out that there is more of a balance to the pos/neg chart than many white patriotic americans would have us believe.

Personally, I find that this point is generally disregarded by many I bring it up to, sadly. It's a powerful point, but one that does not dismiss all the liberty-curtailing points that can be made.


As for the major turning points, you're only adding the ones that progressives have done, there have also been major periods of anti-progressive thought in the United States.


I wouldn't consider the Confederacy to be terribly progressive, nor was the addition of the 17th Amendment. Point being, these seem to me to be the major points of the past 150 years or so that changed the political landscape and structure of this country.


I would add to this that the Westward Expansion (including genocide of the Native Americans,) Pacific Imperialist, Victorian-Edwardian American Isolationist, and W. Bush's Adventurism were all very regressive tidal periods in American history that should be considered turning points too.


This seems to be quite another debate, and not a small one at that. I wouldn't mind having that debate, but I'd prefer not to have it here since we'd terribly derail the thread.

I'll concede in some respects with regard to GW Bush though, but I don't find it to be a departure from the norm as more of a continuation of the escalating American interventionism we've enjoyed since the mid 1900's.


Finally, I truly believe that voting is not just needed but absolutely critically fundamental to the American experiment. Without such you are loosing the very philosophy of Republicanism (classical not the party) that your country was founded upon and are doing away with all of the Enlightenment thought that lead to your country.


I might have agreed with you once upon a time, but I no longer find value in the landscape we find ourselves in. I don't disagree with you in principle, but we are beyond principle at this point and are solidly in gritty and raw reality.

The enlightenment is dead, sad to say. Thomas Paine's Age of Reason provides a stark contrast to today's landscape. Once read, it's hard to go back and I've read it a few times.




posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 08:05 PM
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I would say that I would tend to agree. I don't believe that I'm as familiar as with the enlightenment literature as you are- but I recently read On Liberty so I believe I have some acquaintance with the ideas. People have become too accustomed to having the government solve all of their problems. In the past- people just wanted the government only to help with commerce, impose duties on imports, or, perhaps just regulate trade. They wanted freedom of commerce and to let business respond to the demands of the people. Now everyone thinks that the government should take direct control of businesses, and, that it should take even more of a larger part- than just ensuring safety regulations, and, ensuring that trade goes properly. I would tend to agree with you that people have gone far from the ideas that were espoused in the enlightenment.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 

Even speaking as one from the Great Pink North (as in Socialist...work with the gay thing as need be), that's a good, common sense post. Which is why I listed you as a pal a long time ago. Kudos.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by Frankidealist35
I would say that I would tend to agree. I don't believe that I'm as familiar as with the enlightenment literature as you are- but I recently read On Liberty so I believe I have some acquaintance with the ideas. People have become too accustomed to having the government solve all of their problems. In the past- people just wanted the government only to help with commerce, impose duties on imports, or, perhaps just regulate trade. They wanted freedom of commerce and to let business respond to the demands of the people. Now everyone thinks that the government should take direct control of businesses, and, that it should take even more of a larger part- than just ensuring safety regulations, and, ensuring that trade goes properly. I would tend to agree with you that people have gone far from the ideas that were espoused in the enlightenment.


I have certainly not read any literature on this type of content. I go on the premise that first, "these truths are self evident". Second, i look at what is self evident from a perspective of me controlling my life, not me controlling someone else's life. This, to me, is liberty. If you look at it like this, then you are more likely to see the self evident truths that our forefathers spoke of.

It is all just common sense and logic, peppered with their own personal experiences (hence, the verbose 2nd amendment).

Thanks for sharing. You hit on a major item that must be address: the Governmental Titan. Lean and mean, that is what we need.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 



I often like to give our Northern friends a hard time aboot the cultural nuances, eh. But make no mistake, the respect for you and your national peers is solid. There were Canadian soldiers who died for freedom on the beaches of Normandy. Both our nations were heavily influenced politically by the indigenous peoples of America. We are family.

Thanks for posting.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 09:35 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


Big Fat Furry Texan, that was a good read!

You know, I am a Canadian living in China...and...you wouldn't believe the experiences that are visited upon me daily.

I am talking about meeting people who have had the very lifeforce sucked out of them. Or wait, maybe it was never in them in the first place.

What a difference to be raised under the American system, as contrasted with the Chinese system.

From time to time America takes a lot of heat, here on ATS. But I'm telling you, the ideals you spoke of, I think, are the greatness of America and Americans; and I shudder to think of a world that no longer has that greatness.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


trust no one completely


Sadly, this includes those who are supposed to count my vote.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by univac500
 



I have started to detach myself from the "hate America" rhetoric. I figure they are talking about our government, and they are my enemy as well. They are destroying our grand Republic. My only saving grace, i hope, is that I am from another republic: Texas.


If me or my sons breathe, the ideals of freedom and liberty will not die. I am sure there are others, as i have seen them on this forum.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by 23refugee
 



Absolutely no reason to trust them, either. Know how many "Employee Of The Month" votes are rigged when the winner is seen by management as being a slacker? It is human nature to tinker with such results, rationalized as "for the good of humanity".



posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


When the election in November is over, we must have thrown out all incumbents. Do not stop until this has been achieved. After this goal is met, we must move on to the next, and the next, until we have finally rebuilt this country to its former glory.

At some point, things will probably get bad enough that it will become obvious that the government is not our friend. When this happens, we will have gained some traction.

Even then, it will not be over for us. For the time will come to band together and work towards a better tomorrow. The system that has been put in place will not be able to last forever, it will fail, even if it becomes completely totalitarian, it will fail. And when it does, history will not look on it kindly. So do not forget this, and do not be afraid to be an outcast today and a hero tomorrow. Do not lose faith. Do not lose hope. If need be, hibernate, keeping secret what you know to be true until the day that you are called upon to make a difference.

I have a feeling that by the time my lifetime is over I will see both the rise and fall of totalitarianism. So please, don't give up hope, and don't start developing Stockholm Syndrome.

[edit on 14-6-2010 by darkbake]

[edit on 14-6-2010 by darkbake]



posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by univac500
 



I have started to detach myself from the "hate America" rhetoric. I figure they are talking about our government, and they are my enemy as well. They are destroying our grand Republic. My only saving grace, i hope, is that I am from another republic: Texas.


If me or my sons breathe, the ideals of freedom and liberty will not die. I am sure there are others, as i have seen them on this forum.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by 23refugee
 



Absolutely no reason to trust them, either. Know how many "Employee Of The Month" votes are rigged when the winner is seen by management as being a slacker? It is human nature to tinker with such results, rationalized as "for the good of humanity".


Texas could be taken out if enough toxic gasses hit over there from the Gulf during hurricane season. But seriously, glad to hear your support of freedom.

[edit on 14-6-2010 by darkbake]



posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 10:54 PM
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So, what is going on with this? Was there shenanigans? Are we encouraging too many stupid people to vote? Or are we grasping at straws?



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