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Relatively simple solutions to fixing America

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posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
 


Its only case law built on more case law.

Although I do agree that to make it work we might need a Constitutional amendment. And while we are at it, we need to make an amendment that forbids 1000 page bills laden with hidden issues that none of the politicians actually read.




posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


You and I both know that for better or for worse, the federal government rapidly expanded in the first half of the 20th century. Whether or not this expansion was good or bad on the whole is another topic.

While taxes and the expansion of the federal government could be symptoms of politicians being bought in many circumstances, they are not always the result of politicians being bought.



posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Reforming income taxation is not eliminating income taxation. Income taxation is odious and it has been what has funded all entitlements that exist today. All welfare programs, all government subsidies, and all bailout loans are funded by income taxation. The middle class would see an increase of anywhere from 20 to 45% of their income if income taxation were eliminated.

I get that you are big on tariffs. I remain ambivalent on tariff's and have no real opinion towards them.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
 


Since the title of this thread is "Relatively simple solutions to fixing America" I am not so sure that you are correct that the rapid expansion brought by the beginning of the 20th century is off topic. Expansion for individuals is good and all should aspire towards such expansion. Expansion of government is bad, and we have our own federal government as a constant reminder of this.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


I know a lot of people feel uncomfortable with the idea of case law, but in our legal system the judicial branch gets to say what the law is.

I also know a lot of people feel uncomfortable with long statutes or regulations. Many long bills are laden with pork barrel provisions and other forms of special interest waste.

We should not, however, legislate towards the lowest common denominator. We live in a complex world of complex technologies and sophisticated financial transactions. We cannot effectively regulate these things with simple rules that a 5th grader can understand. We need complex and lengthy rules to prevent disasters like the recent oil spill or the recent financial market collapse.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 





I get that you are big on tariffs. I remain ambivalent on tariff's and have no real opinion towards them.


The reason I am big on tariffs is that it won't matter what tax system you want or don't want. We simply cannot maintain our wealth as a country with trade policies as they are....in fact the transfer of wealth leaving the country has happened because of our trade policies. It has nothing to do with entitlements.

That's why I keep stressing tariffs so much. Nothing else matters until we change it. We will continue to go downhill while everyone chases a pipe dream that won't be relevant without changing and fixing this issue first.

It's problem #1. The world functioned just fine when countries enforced their trade laws....or at least "as good" as it does now. It's the only way to protect a country's industries. It's a must.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I'm ambivalent on tariffs, too. There are several types of taxes out there like gift taxes, estate taxes, corporate dividends taxes, excise taxes, and VATS. If the income tax were eliminated, at least one type of tax would still have to remain.

I am not so sure the middle class would necessarily receive a net benefit if income taxes were eliminated. Keep in mind the middle class benefits directly or indirectly from government spending. If income taxes were eliminated, so would some of the government programs that benefit the middle class. Middle class people would have to pay more for education, many would lose their government jobs or lose customers who have government jobs, etc.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Consider this:


Tariffs in United States history have played different roles in trade policy and the nation's economic history. Tariffs were the largest source of federal revenue from the 1790s to the eve of World War I, until it was surpassed by income taxes.


You want your tariff's? Do away with the income tax and you'll get your tariff's.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:14 AM
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Interesting post, but the Supreme Court would beg to differ, having just ruled that Corporations can now fund politicians campaigns with unlimited contributions re advertising etc.

I think a better solution would be a two term limit on al levels of political office, threby forcing the corporations to find other politicians to back, rather than letting them back the same old dead horse each time.

Another reform would be to ban the candidates (at all levels) from being able to put in which party they represent on their campaigning or on the ballot. This would mean that people would have to listen to the real issues each time, rather than blindly backing Republican or Democrat politicans regardless of who they are. If this was combined with two term limits (so people wouldn't be able to figure out who was who past a second election) I think we'd see some surprising results at all levels of elected office.

You could still have party conventions etc, but make sure that the MSM doesn't report which party it is when the convention is on, so that people have to listen to the issues and where their politicians stand.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
 


I dont disagree that the rules themselves may be lengthy, but they dont have to be coupled with many irrelevant issues to be workable. Occams Razor would suffice, it neednt be monosyllabic and written in crayon.

As for the case law issue, its still just case law. I do understand that our judicial system is allowed to make it, and that it is rarely overturned once made, but it is not impossible. Hence all the Roe v. Wade noise that rages on. However the very fact that it is case law illustrates why we need to get money out of politics.

No matter how liberal or conservative Supreme Court justices may be on some issues, there is a disturbing trend toward pro-corporate rulings. Which I doubt is coincidental.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


I actually already knew about that...made a thread about it...too lazy to find the link.

Tariffs have to come first before anything else is done...as I said it won't matter otherwise. I'm looking at how we can get good jobs going again....simply eliminating income taxes won't do anything.

Whether we like it or not, these debts have to be paid. This country actually has an opportunity to turn things around despite how bad it all looks...we just need to start doing things that will actually change our path.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint
 


It doesn't surprise me that you are ambivalent on tariff's also, and if I may now respond to an earlier remark you made, I think you and I agree on far more than we disagree on. It is a tragic irony, or not tragic and only ironic, that you are a tax attorney and I am so vehemently opposed to this odious form of taxation. We do have other differences but we also both have a profound love for law and legal issues, and I believe a profound love for our country, which is what makes us brothers.

That said, I would speak to your uncertainty regarding the so called "middle class", first by asserting that I am against class warfare, and see all people as equal under the law regardless of their economic station. I know you do too, but you are more willing to play the class distinction game than I am. Neither one of us are rich, and I have read enough of your posts to know that you are no where near the level of financial security you would like to be, and frankly I am just flat out poor, being a struggling artist, and freelance writer. However, my understanding of the American Dream is not to aspire to middle classdom, but to aspire to genuine wealth.

The largest pay check I ever received took out over 50% in taxes that week, (both federal and state), and all it accomplished was my steadfast refusal to ever put in that kind of effort again, so my employer certainly lost out on that deal, as well as I. What that week taught me was that the income tax scheme was intended from preventing people from creating wealth. Combine that with a Federal Reserve that has spent years suppressing interest rates, while watching the rate of inflation increase dramatically and it is understandable why so few people have very little in the way of a savings account and most have some form of debt.

As to education, income tax does not pay for public school, at least this is my understanding of it, and local property taxes is what pays for the local public school system. Even so, I am increasingly becoming a strong advocate of simply doing away with the public school system, and as far as what an education costs, if a family wants this education for their children, they will do what they have to, by hook or by crook if necessary, to get them that education. Further, if the child wants the education, they will get it, and won't be denied an education simply because there is no public funding available for it. There will always be charity and foundations to support this.

Loosing government jobs is a painful necessity if we are to ever find any real answers to the problem of government. Government is not what makes economies happen, or even function properly, and all too often they are the source of bad economies. Bernanke as much as admitted this in a speech he gave praising Milton Friedman.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 12:36 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 





Tariffs have to come first before anything else is done...as I said it won't matter otherwise. I'm looking at how we can get good jobs going again....simply eliminating income taxes won't do anything.


I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Since tariff's all ready existed prior to the passage of the current income tax, and given that it was precisely because the current income tax is so entrenched that tariff's were easily eliminated, I do not believe for a single second that income taxation will go away simply if we argue that tariff's must come first. Yes debts have to be paid, and there will always be arguments, (Just read the O.P.'s arguments for income taxation), as to why we can't do away with income taxation, but we can and if and when we do, you will see your tariff's.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 





I do not believe for a single second that income taxation will go away simply if we argue that tariff's must come first.


I am looking at this issue in terms of jobs and protecting/increasing what we have. I am not stating that income taxes will go away...it certainly wouldn't right away...it's not possible with the debts we have. They are going to have to be payed off before something as drastic as eliminating income taxes can be considered.

You are stating that we should just eliminate income taxes because you don't agree with them...and that's fine. I'm just stating it's not going to do much of anything to fix our country's economy. People will have a few more bucks to buy Chinese televisions and cell phones. Doesn't do much of anything but continue the problem however as we'll still be in debt and sending our jobs and money overseas.

Again, this is why I keep talking about tariffs.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 01:17 AM
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reply to post by David9176
 





I am looking at this issue in terms of jobs and protecting/increasing what we have. I am not stating that income taxes will go away...it certainly wouldn't right away...it's not possible with the debts we have. They are going to have to be payed off before something as drastic as eliminating income taxes can be considered.


This nation began in debt, huge debt due to the Revolution of American Independence, but even with that debt there was not an income tax passed to pay off this debt. During the civil war an income tax was passed to pay for that debt but was repealed once the debt had been paid. When the income tax was passed in 1913 this nation was no where near in debt as we are today, and we wouldn't be in the kind of debt we are in today if it weren't for the income tax.

As to saving jobs...well you all ready know my views on that. I am all for one having a job if that is the height of a persons ambitions, or even a stepping stone for one to reach their ambitions, I just don't see how taxation can in anyway save any jobs other than government jobs. If we aren't electing them into office, or if they aren't appointed as proscribed by Constitution then I am unclear why they need a government job other than to continue plundering the American people in the name of wealth redistribution.

As far as eliminating income taxes it goes well beyond what I agree with or disagree with. Income is a fundamental right of the people and if it is a right then it is questionable if it is truly a taxable event. Less questionable today since the passage and entrenchment of the income tax but herein lies the problem with income taxation. It has led to a dumbed down populace woefully ignorant to their inalienable rights, and proudly aware of their "civil rights".

As far as eliminating the income tax it will do wonders in fixing our economy as the first thing it would do is starve the beast that is screwing up the economy to begin with. An increase of 20 to 45% of ones income is not just peanuts, and if we combine repealing the income tax with doing away with the Federal Reserve, (another legislative act passed in 1913...that fateful year), then people will begin to reinvest in the economy or simply just start saving again, instead of this useless consumptive economy we've all foolishly gone into agreement with. Much will be solved just by simply doing away with the income tax, and as to the debt? The debt will get paid, and more than likely after the income tax has been repealed because such a repeal would force the government to do away with much of its expense and simply focus on repaying the debt.



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 08:48 AM
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1. Withdraw your troops from the illegal wars in iraq and afghanistan.
2. Shut down all your military bases in other countries.
3. End all aid to isreal and other countries.
4. Focus on better education, business development and scientific development.
The savings from
ending the illegal/immoral wars and military bases around the world would go far in paying off your national debt along with being better used to help your own citizens who need it.
5. Dump the corrupt psycotics you have for leaders and find leaders who actually care about you the people instead of pursuing their own bloodsoaked agenda.. There is no difference other than name of the parties there all are corrupt..



posted on Jun, 12 2010 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Expat888
 


You cannot even think about doing these things and other things without first getting politicians off of the lobbyist's payrolls.



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