A Behind the Scenes Look at God and the gods…

I think it is a nice work of fiction that could hold some understanding for you, but if I may...

If you changed the Lucifer character to say, Sam(m)ael, Iblis, Iadalbaoth, or Mastema, or Satanel it might help with the whole Lucifer was mistranslated for king Nebuchadnezzar crowd (I'm one lol)
Also if you wanted some more Archangels in the story, Uriel is one that until recently was apart of the top four (four directions, four winds, etc..)
Plus he/she is my fave angel .
Anyway, awesome job bud, looks well thought out and I hope you had lots of spiritual moments comming up with the story!

I might add that i didn't mean "fiction" in a derogatory sense, just that it read like a cool si-fi kinda way

reply to post by gncnew

I think your colloquial historical overview is theologically correct.

All you need to add is the role of pre-deluge hybridization of man...
...and the role of Israel in the genetic preservation of man to get to Messiah.

Then link this to modern day abductions and breeding...
...and the 'alien hypothesis' presented in sci-fi since the 1950's.

And then you have your 'behind the scenes' playing out right now in contemporary history.

reply to post by queenannie38


There is a tribe called the Yezidi,they belive that Satan did the right thing by not subbmitng to Adam

Link below:

Furthermore, the Yazidi story regarding Tawûsê Melek's rise to favor with God is almost identical to the story of the jinn Iblis in Islam, except that Yazidis revere Tawûsê Melek for refusing to submit to Adam, while Muslims believe that Iblis' refusal to submit caused him to fall out of Grace with God, and to later become Satan himself.[16]

Tawûsê Melek is often identified by Muslims and Christians with Shaitan (Satan). Yazidis, however, believe Tawûsê Melek is not a source of evil or wickedness. They consider him to be the leader of the archangels, not a fallen angel. They also hold that the source of evil is in the heart and spirit of humans themselves, not in Tawûsê Melek. The active forces in their religion are Tawûsê Melek and Sheik Adî.

en.wikipedia.org...


Mabey he did get a raw deal.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by teraform]

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by gncnew
A cool book - "The Fall of Lucifer" by Wendy Allen is something you may want to look into. Presents a side to the commonly accepted story of Satan that looks much different. To me it's a picture much more in line with an all-Loving God that hurts for his children the way a Father hurts for his sons and daughters.

could you give us a synopsis, perhaps?
i'm interested in hearing what it is about, but i doubt i'd have time to read it these days, no matter how interesting.

thanks

LOL, sure - it takes a lot of info from the Koran and other sources to write an interpretive fictional account of three Arch Angles (Mike, Gabe, and Luci) as brothers under God, it goes through the emotional turmoil and upheaval in heaven as Lucifer departs, and then details the actual fall.

But all of this is done from a much more personal level. The author imagines the emotions and drama of it rather than telling the story from an abstract point of view.



[edit on 11-6-2010 by gncnew]

reply to post by Phlynx


Not exactly. Creation wasn't made to kill creation. Sin is the condition that causes us to deviate from God's plan.

I think you're trying to draw a parallel in the wrong direction. God holds a special privilege as the creator that we as creations do not enjoy.

Our nature as it is now is not defined by God but by our knowledge both of God and NOT of God. We choose to interact with the rest of creation based upon this knowledge of "good and evil". That's specifically why God did not want that knowledge known to us. He wanted us to be free of that burden - but in our arrogance we assumed it's because God was keeping things from us.

But now the cat is out of the bag - so to speak. There is no going back, no rewind.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


The bible is a book of why, not how. Too many people look to the bible as an all encompassing book of how the world works, what the nature of God is, what rules we're supposed to live by...

The bible is a God inspired book written by God inspired men. It's man's best attempt to capture the heart and experience of God along with historical precedent. "Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God's mouth".

This statement right there is telling you that you can't get by on just one source of the word but from EVERY source of His word.

I'm not of the opinion that the bible is the only place God speaks to man. In fact I think that would be the equivalent of reading your 8th grade natural science book and then calling it a day and saying that's all there is to know about science.

The bible is more of the "owners" manual, but there is so much more to be learned. And the cool thing is that the harder and deeper you seek Him, the closer he draws to you.

I'm not here to debate my relationship with God. I'm not here to convince you that He exists. I'm espeically not here to debate the very nature of God because I belive whole heartedly that no man on earth can know the nature of God. We're not capable of even comprehending God.

That's why he reveals himself in minute and mysterious ways - because we're incapable of grasping the true nature of God.

I find that most people who want to debate the nature of God, or even the existence of God are out there scouring the earth looking for evidence of his non-existence.

I think that if you instead turn the coin and seek his existence then he will be revealed to you. If you search for his nature instead of looking to disprove what others say - his nature will be revealed to you.

But don't expect God to constantly sit over your shoulder and convince when all you're looking for is proof that He's not who everyone says he is.

reply to post by unknownfairy


I tend to think that the vast differences - yet striking similarities - of the world's creation stories all stem from the fact that we really did have a common ancestor and that this story was passed down from generation to generation.

I tend to look at it also as the telephone game with so many different societies trying to not only retell the story but to make sure they are on the good end of it.

For example - when Noah's son Ham was cursed by Noah for an offense, Ham's son, Canaan was a slave forever. I'd imagine that the story told from Canaan's descendants would be very different from the story told by Shem and Japheth's descendants.

The Bible is only one line of a very long lineage of people that all originated from Adam.

reply to post by westlink


Thanks. With the name's of Lucifer I think it's like the name of God. I think the angles were called by different names in each culture. I think Lucifer recreated himself to each kingdom trying to be a "god of the people" so to speak.

I think that's why there is so much confusion surrounding him, his name, his existence, and even his nature.

This whole thing is just a very rough outline of stuff I've been thinking for awhile... Not something I necessarily think has to be true - just a possible truth.

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by gncnew

 

I think your colloquial historical overview is theologically correct.

All you need to add is the role of pre-deluge hybridization of man...
...and the role of Israel in the genetic preservation of man to get to Messiah.

Then link this to modern day abductions and breeding...
...and the 'alien hypothesis' presented in sci-fi since the 1950's.

And then you have your 'behind the scenes' playing out right now in contemporary history.

you know... something I didn't put in here because it really didnt have a place is that I've always looked at the list of "begats" in the bible and then wondered how people lived for 600 years and then that slowly dwindled down to roughly 100 years or less. (Other than the part where God says he wont let anyone live longer than 150..(or was it 120?))...

I am of the opinion that Adam was immortal (i.e. not meant to every "die") until they were separated from Eden. At this point man was still a perfect creation but was now mortal due to sin.

I think each generation became successively separated genetically from that "perfect" state and thus the shrinking life spans.

I also think that God's plan with the flood was to try and take the most pure line left from Adam and essentially "re-seed" the earth while removing the corrupted strain for man (corrupted by the fallen).

Originally posted by teraform
reply to post by queenannie38

 

There is a tribe called the Yezidi,they belive that Satan did the right thing by not subbmitng to Adam

Link below:

Furthermore, the Yazidi story regarding Tawûsê Melek's rise to favor with God is almost identical to the story of the jinn Iblis in Islam, except that Yazidis revere Tawûsê Melek for refusing to submit to Adam, while Muslims believe that Iblis' refusal to submit caused him to fall out of Grace with God, and to later become Satan himself.[16]

Tawûsê Melek is often identified by Muslims and Christians with Shaitan (Satan). Yazidis, however, believe Tawûsê Melek is not a source of evil or wickedness. They consider him to be the leader of the archangels, not a fallen angel. They also hold that the source of evil is in the heart and spirit of humans themselves, not in Tawûsê Melek. The active forces in their religion are Tawûsê Melek and Sheik Adî.

en.wikipedia.org...


Mabey he did get a raw deal.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by teraform]

I wonder if this isn't similar to the situation I described in my reply here:
reply to post by gncnew


Usually the story changes perspective and who's the "good" guy depending on who's telling the story.

Maybe the Yazidi are what's left of the kingdom set up by Lucifer (maybe even his sect of priests?) and thus still regard him as the "good guy"...?

Notice that even here - God's not the bad guy - man is. This goes in line with the idea that Lucifer still loves God but is not able to accept God's love for man over him. Lucifer doesn't want to beat God, he wants to prove to God that he's the better one and that he should be exalted above all else.

reply to post by gncnew


After reading all the post and your responses to them, I must admit that your statements are very compelling. Like you, I too am on a quest to be closer to my Father in Heaven. With that said, the more I search the more I seem to understand. And yes I agree with you. Lucifer’s new strategy is to convince the world that neither God nor he exists. What better way is there to hurt a parent than to deny their existence?

I hope that very soon that we both meet and that meeting place will be in the Kingdom of our Father.

reply to post by Eric1963


Amen to that. I think that heaven isn't a cloudy wonder land in the sky. I think heaven is existing in a state or plane with God where you're whole existence is free to worship God and be with the Father.

I think Hell is just the opposite. Not a fiery painful eternity but actually a cold and eternal loneliness. Hell is an eternal separation from God, full of the knowledge of who he is - and that you can never rejoin him.

reply to post by gncnew


But I wonder if you complicate things too much? The God I worship is all knowing and all powerful. Such a deity has no need for angels, fallen or otherwise, to do his bidding.

A: If God is all powerful
and
B: Evil exists
then by necessity,
C: Evil exists because it is God's will.

Now, of course who are we to ever know the intricacies of God's will, but it's my own opinion that God lets evil and suffering exist in the world so that we can better appreciate the beauty and good in life.

Just my 2¢. Carry on. (And I'm another one who believes the whole "Lucifer isn't a name, it's a mis-translation that's been blown out of proportion"... see my post here for what I consider to be the best argument on that topic...)

LUCIFER or SATAN um just asken please. Are your speaking of LUCIFER the brightest or SATAN the darkest or are they the same to you, friend? Not even derailing this thread as it was well distributed. I like they way you present the names of fallens and how they were under the KING of fallen 1z and just wanted to see how you viewed NATAS and LUCI as 1 or 2. s&f for the efforts.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
LUCIFER or SATAN um just asken please. Are your speaking of LUCIFER the brightest or SATAN the darkest or are they the same to you, friend? Not even derailing this thread as it was well distributed. I like they way you present the names of fallens and how they were under the KING of fallen 1z and just wanted to see how you viewed NATAS and LUCI as 1 or 2. s&f for the efforts.

Lucifer is the brightest, and Satan is what we've adopted - calling him the darkest. We took God's discussion with him through Isaiah ("Oh how fall you've fallen") to mean that God doesn't see him as Son of the Morning.

I think God still sees him that way. I think we don't. God wants him back...

I think the name is just the label put on the entity. YHWH, Yahweh, God, Emmanuel, Allah, Jesus....

We've got lots of names for the same thing, simply different perspectives. Humans are notorious about liking to name things and place them into neat little boxes that make it easier to understand the infinitely complex.

Kind of like "gravity"... the invisible ever present magnetic force of attraction that draws things of mass together throughout the universe and can bend space time.

But we put it into a simple word, packing it up into something simple when in all actuality it's something so complex we can barely grasp the concept of its existence - much less its nature.



[edit on 11-6-2010 by gncnew]

reply to post by JoshNorton


God is as complex or simple as we make it. He comes to us both ways. God likes for us to seek him in the complexities of his nature but he's just as happy for us to simply "be still, and know I am God".

He's pretty dope like that.

reply to post by gncnew


Yep, I couldn’t agree with you more. I also agree with what you said about the DNA. Mess up the blood line and we have no Savior. It was also discussed in another post (I can’t remember which one) that said possibly that is what the mark of the Beast may be. Some type of genetic manipulation between the fallen and man. Maybe with the promise of extended life or health, who knows? One thing that I am very sure of is I think that we are very close to everything being revealed. Like a child on Christmas Eve I can hardly wait till tomorrow!!

reply to post by gncnew


I have been studying comparative mythology for some time now. Mythological archetypes are fascinating and can be found around the world. Here are some ideas that I think would be worth exploring and investigating.

The Sky Father or Heavenly Father is almost a universal archetype. This figure is often synonmous with the Heavens in myth and is often the creator and king of the gods. In Sumeria it is Anu. The Mongols and Turks call it Tengri. The Chinese call it Shangdi and Tien. In Vedic myth it is Dyeus Pitar. He seems to match the Most High.

Beneath the Sky Father and subordinate to Him, is the Thunder god. The Thunderer is king of the gods on earth, who intercedes between Heaven and earth. He is often cruel and destructive. In Sumeria he is EnLil. In Vedic myth he is Indra. In Greece he is Zeus. He often seeks the extermination of humanity and persecutes it. In some ways he matches Ha Satan, especially as the "Cosmic Archon" who rules over the powers and principalities of the Aer.

Directly beneath the Thunderer is often Seven to Twelve other gods who preside over earth. In Ancient Greece and Rome it is Twelve.

In opposition to the Thunderer is often a Trickster/Culture hero. In Ancient Sumeria this is EnKi. In Ancient Greece it is Prometheus. The Norse Loki also somewhat fits the description. Azazel of the Book of Enoch also seems to be a match.

Beyond these three big analogs, there are some more obscure ones.

Lilith has some analogs in Ancient Greece, Rome, Gaul, and a few other places as a dark goddess of the crossroads, associated with "witchcraft", owls and ravens. There are other analogs with night goddesses and huntresses.

The offspring of Lilith and Azazel, the Seirm and Shedim have analogs with various "Nature Spirits" such as Satyrs/Fauns, Nymphs, Elves, Trolls, Ogres, etc.

In addition to this there are some more bizarre analogs of things more transcendant.

The Logos, the Adam Kadmon, the Primal Image of Man can be found in many myths. The figure is sometimes a Demiurge or the Nous (Mind) of the Cosmos. It is often associated with Cosmic order.

There is also the tradition of an energy-force, a vital force that is often personified as feminine, the soule or spirit of the Cosmos. The Anima Mundus or Cosmic Breath.

These two are sometimes emanations of a Creator instead of created beings.





[edit on 11/6/10 by MikeboydUS]

Id like to start off by saying i was raised christian, and no longer am a supporter of organised religion.
I still believe in G-D and i still believe in the basic principles in the bible i just dont think i need to organise at a church and have a man in a robe be a mediator between myself and my creator.
that said i respect everyones right to read the holy book of there choice and worship as they feel compelled.

but i did want to add the title of an old wu tang song

B.asic
I.nstructions
B.efore
L.eaving
E.arth

~meathead