Israeli - Palestinian conflict by the numbers (The numbers don't lie)

Wow Airspoon!
You have certainly been on top of your game lately my friend!
I would give you 10 more S&F if I could!!

Its really nice to see someone do some serious research and post it in such an easily readable manner here on ATS!

Also, I hope you feel very proud, that this is one of a very number of threads that I have saved to my deskptop for personal reference! Keep up the good work man!
You're a valuable asset to this community!

I think I have the solution to the whole problem. Get the Hamas terrorist to quit launching rockets into Israel. Leave them alone. Then if Israeal attacks anyone you can cry foul. Until then you statistics don't mean much unless you also provide the provoking factors which caused the end results.

Just a suggestion.

what Von said
not just your math
your conduct since OP has been well done
up 1 hat size


[edit on 10-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Danbones]

When a mosquito is buzzing around you and bites you, you kill it. Disproportionate? Yes. But if you don't do it, it will just keep coming back for more.

I also see that no one cares to mention the fact that Egypt is also involved, and Jordan kicked these people out.

I also notice that no one seems to want to acknowledge that Israel gave them the land, after gaining it after a failed attempt to push Israel into the sea.

And to the people crying over who the land belongs to . . . to the victor goes the spoils. That is the way of war.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com


[edit on 6/10/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]

"Israel currently has 121 Jewish-only settlements and 106 "outposts" on confiscated Palestinian land... Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. "

How can they be evicting them off Israeli land if there aren't any settlements on Israeli land? I guess the numbers do lie!

reply to post by airspoon


Thank you for writing a fact-based article that sticks to the numbers and does not denigrate the Jewish people.

I have been a strong defender of Israel on these forums, and it would be very difficult to respond to much of what you've said without feeling incredibly foolish. Probably, I would have to appeal to history.

I think you make a splendid case, and I'm glad that you were able to do so without resorting to anti-semetic rhetoric or hate speech. Thank you.

S+F

-RedBird

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

When a mosquito is buzzing around you and bites you, you kill it. Disproportionate? Yes. But if you don't do it, it will just keep coming back for more.

I also see that no one cares to mention the fact that Egypt is also involved, and Jordan kicked these people out.

I also notice that no one seems to want to acknowledge that Israel gave them the land, after gaining it after a failed attempt to push Israel into the sea.

And to the people crying over who the land belongs to . . . to the victor goes the spoils. That is the way of war.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

[edit on 6/10/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]

no truer words have ever been spoken, pal.

I'm so glad to see so many people here finding this forum and it's conversation as the appropriate place to make personal attacks against Christians, Jews, their faith, and their God. Nice job guys. Way to show your objectivity.

Originally posted by Team Locke
I think I have the solution to the whole problem. Get the Hamas terrorist to quit launching rockets into Israel. Leave them alone. Then if Israeal attacks anyone you can cry foul. Until then you statistics don't mean much unless you also provide the provoking factors which caused the end results.

Just a suggestion.

I think I have the solution to the whole problem too. Get the Israeli terrorists to quit occupying and blocading territories which do not belong to them, both demographically and historically. Then if Hamas attacks anyone you can cry foul. Until then, your criticism of Hamas doesnt mean much unless you also provide the provoking factors which caused the end results.

Just a suggestion.

EDIT:Typo..

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Maslo]

One note:

The list of children killed by date and in what fashion seems to be overwhelmingly full of teenagers that were shot at "demonstrations".

You do realize that the "demonstrations" they're talking about are part of the intifada and those teenagers are part of the resistance. In Western Europe and the U.S. we don't put anyone into combat until they're 18 but in Palestine old enough to hold a gun is legal fighting age.

This quote:

“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.” --Catherine Cook

This diametrically opposed to the actual "documentation" that list's the death's and their circumstance.

All this is to say that you're participating in propaganda. Listing an unrelated (or untrue?) quote next to numbers/reports that twist the information to fit a scene is what you're supposedly trying to debunk... yet here you are doing the same.

Here is another perspective:
8,342 Israelis wounded in terror attacks (2001-2007) Israe l Ministry of Foriegn Affairs

But only roughly 1,200 of them died. This is either because the Palestinians are terrible at killing people or probably more likely the Medical facilities in Israel are far superior to those in Palestine.

Look - this isn't about debating the wrong and right of it... it's simply saying that BOTH sides are painting this ridiculous picture of the other as an evil enemy.

They're both in the wrong - and it won't stop until they have had enough of the death and destruction and come to accept one another. Palestinians have no desire to live WITH the Israelis. And the Israelis have no desire to live as equals WITH people who don't recognize their right to exist as a state.

The best thing we could do is to recognize both the Israelis as a legitimate state - condemn (with UN sanctions) any nation or people that attack her - and at the same time recognize the occupied regions of Palestine as a state and then pump in aid and through UN force protect it's boarders from interference by outside interests (i.e. Hamas, Iran, Egypt, etc...)

The problem is other than Israel and Palestine - no one really cares enough to take action... it's just all words.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by gncnew]

[edit on 10-6-2010 by gncnew]

Originally posted by Mykahel
I'm so glad to see so many people here finding this forum and it's conversation as the appropriate place to make personal attacks against Christians, Jews, their faith, and their God. Nice job guys. Way to show your objectivity.

It’s impossible to discuss these issues without discussing the religious side of things. You must also be aware that supremacist rabbinic hate rules the day in Israel and in large parts of the Jewish populous here in the US. It is hate for Christians that drives some of the violence over there.

Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21) Judaism teaches hate for the non Jew in particular the Christian (Sanhedrin 106a, Gittin 57a). Is this why we should not discuss these issues?

Jewish owned media tear at the very heart of Christendom openly and without any reproach.

Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books") will have no portion in the world to come.

Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

This is at the very heart of the matter, and cannot be avoided!

Large portions of the Palestinian populous are Christian. Don’t kid yourself friend, if you are a Christian you are less than a dog in the eyes of the hardliners.

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a church. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").



[edit on 10-6-2010 by Donkey_Dean]

Airspoon,

Extremely well done. I admire your collectedness and cool head. You paint a picture using just the facts, and as you say, the numbers do not lie. It does sadden me to see some posting here suggesting the murder of non-combatant children is justified by comparing human beings to mosquitos, or by the fact that unrelated adult criminals carried out crimes of their own. Regardless, I suspect that you captured a lot of attention here. Well done.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by JohnnyElohim]

Yes. The numbers are misleading due to the fact that they include terrorist and Hamas casualties, not just civilian.

I think the numbers that should be given the most credence are pure civilian casualties on both sides.

Breakdown of casualties during the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
www.eretzyisroel.org...

Also see
Children and minors in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict
en.wikipedia.org...

Israle has caused mor civilian casualties...as collateral damage during operations targeting terrorists.

Palastinian terrorists have specifically targeted civilians and often women and children.

Not to sound cliche, but it is complicated.

The Israeli's have adopted the position of responding to attacks disproportionately...and that is not working.

Palastinian Terrorists have often specifically targeted civilians, even specifically targeting children and women.

From an international law perspective I lean heavily toward Palastine People.

Israel is way out of bounds and is perpetuating suffering with blockaides of legitimate food and medical supplies, they are continuing illegal settlements etc.

Palastinian terrorists however have done some flat out horrifying things and the majority of thier attacks are aimed at civilians...shock and terror is clearly the goal.

They make it difficult to be sympathetic to thier cause.

Honestly what do I think the solution is?

In the past the US government has just played at condemning Israel and only for the most blatant, undeniable acts.

The Palastinians have never had any support from the West, despite having the legal upper ground in the conflict. This is due to
(1) they have entirely abandoned the Moral high ground with thier tactics, and
(2) The US Gov. has never looked as if it would compromise on it's support for Israel whatever the circumstances.

With the current administration showing signs of not having neccessarily "absolute" support of Israel...If I was the Palastinians, I would scale back on terrorist operations, strike a deal with the current US administration and get an agreement that if the Palastinians cease terrorist operations (targeting of civilians) that the US will publically condemn Israel, demand an end to settlements and blockaides and if Israel refuse then threaten and then act on sanctions, embargos etc.

Would it work?...probably not, but this is their best chance. Love him or hate him, Pres Obama doesn't come from the typical US political pedigree and ideological roots. They need to try and strike a deal with the Obama administration...If the Obama administration fails to sway Israel to end the occupation, then they can always go back to doing what they are doing.

The status quo doesn't work. Public sentiment is moving on the issue. They need to cease all terrorist activities. let the world see them for the victims they are, rather than terrorists...Strike a deal with the US administration/not Israel and roll the dice that the current POTUS is sufficiently "out of the Box" and a US backed coalition can snap Israel out of their over-sized, disproportional, defensive rage.

Like I said...a long shot, but a better chance than in the past or likely in the future.

reply to post by maybereal11


Those who fight oppression or are fighting simply to exist are not terrorists!

www.youtube.com...





[edit on 10-6-2010 by Donkey_Dean]

Numbers don't lie but the can mislead. One group of terrorsists firing on israelis who just happen to set up in a school, can skew numbers. How many of these bullets came from israeli guns and how many came from the palestinian terrorists trying to generate sympathy, omg look the israelis are killing kids. I'm not taking one side or the other. Children dying is a terrible thing but numbers without corroborating information and background info are useless.

reply to post by DrJay1975


You have been misled!

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Donkey_Dean]

reply to post by airspoon


Star and flag for you its truly sad that my government supports this

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


I'm not saying that the religious issues should be avoided, as they simply cannot. They are an important part of what is going on as you mentioned.

I am saying that the insults against God and His people are unnecessary. How many times does a person need to call the Lord of Heaven and Earth the "magical sky wizard" or something of the like. It is intentionally rude and has no place here.

Those who believe in God or what the Bible has to say are just assumed to be ignorant hardliners with no capacity for individual thought.

I think part of the problem is that people are looking at the big picture and making generic/blanket statements about it. I know stepping back and seeing the big picture is important, but how many of the deaths and murders need to be placed in their exact scenario in order to have a better understanding of the reality of it?

I have no trust for any media that I hear from that section of the world. I know the Muslim extremists to be excessively deceitful, and I know that many of the Jews are Jews by heritage only and are more secular than many Americans! It is a sad thing to see, but without being able to know for sure exactly what is happening, and the reasons behind it, it is very hard to take a side.

All I know is that the world is turning against Israel (with good reason or no) but that scripture says Israel will be protected when the nations gather against her. Should Israel fall, the faith of many will be destroyed.

Watch and Pray. That's the best option many of us have at this point.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

And to the people crying over who the land belongs to . . . to the victor goes the spoils. That is the way of war.

Yes, and thats the WRONG way. The borders of states should be decided only by demography and history, not by other means. Otherwise we will have constant wars and genocides everywhere where people of two nations find themselves in a single state (compare Israel to artificial colonial states in Africa).
So no, after israel defended itself (that alone was unjust, because he was the agressor and occupant in the area so the attack was justified), he should at least show some sense of justice and occupy only the land which was stolen for him by OSN and which he had demographic majority in.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Maslo]

Originally posted by Dr Expired
But the reality is people are more comfortable with a strong Israel than a strong Arab world.

i personally am NOT.

who's got the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world?
who uses GOD not only as a reason but as leverage?
who refuses to join in any peaceful treaty establishment such as the Non-Proliferation?
who seems to flaunt an attitude of impunity, supported by many, based on what it is BELIEVED that the bible says?


it is madness
sheer madness

i prefer order