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Israeli - Palestinian conflict by the numbers (The numbers don't lie)

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posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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Palestine, the people who live in it, have no army.

Isreal does, to defend what the have stolen from Palestinian people.

'Nough said.

Can't blaim people for throwing rocks, suicide belts, when they are surpresed from being a nation or their own.

Palestine has no army, but Isreal does. Go figure!

This is not a religious issue, it is what is is.

Isreal, emulates the Hitler regime, more, every day.



+3 more 
posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by Eliad
 


I appreciate your response and will try to show the same respect as you have given.


* You are aware that your numbers include terrorist deaths, right?

As far as terrorists being counted in those numbers, they were not counted as civilian deaths. They were counted in the numbers just as IDF soldiers were. There are "terrorists" on both sides.


Doesn't seem fair that soldiers and terrorists would be counted as civilian casualties, on both sides.

Again, they were not counted as *civilian deaths, though they are counted in the over-all count.


Secondly, are you aware that during the cast lead operation hamas soldiers intentionally, at gun point, held entire families in homes with them just so they'd get shot, telling them they're all martyrs for jihad and should be glad to go to heaven?
They also booby trapped buildings with people inside, barricaded in schools, etc.
They have also been using ambulances to transport soldiers, and left wounded civilians behind.


This post wasn't about particular incidents and I even pointed that out in the post. All of those stories are told with subjectivity. This thread was strictly about the numbers in an effort to stay objective. Sure, Palestinians have done some horrible things... But so have the IDF. I'm sure that a lot of isn't true on both sides, but more "untruths" coming from the Israelis since they seem to have that tactic nailed down. They are the masters of propaganda, even Hitler couldn't perfect propaganda so well.


Thirdly, did you know that hamas has been using civilians as human shields and cannon fodder for years? I'm sure you've all seen videos of armed soldiers running around and grabbing children as they run for cover.
But this is not about how evil the hamas is, this is about how evil israel is, right?


Again, see explanation above. This thread was about the numbers only because the numbers are objective, while everything else seems not to be. It's hard for many people to believe the things that the Israeli government spews out, including Hamas using women and children for shields.

Why would they do that when they know the IDF doesn't care if they shoot women and children? We have all seen the videos of IDF shooting at women and children, while I have yet to see one of a Hamas militant using them for shields. That just doesn't make sense.


I would only like to say one more thing- This is not genocide. This is not ethnic cleansing. Non of these civilians were killed as part of a military objective.


I beg to differ and so do many others. The difinition of genocide (according to wikipedia):
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

If it walks, talks and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. I am almost certain that the Israel government wants to eradicate the Palestinians from the region so that they can have a complete "Jewish" Israel. I'm not so certain about too many things, as I am with that.


I wish we could just end this thing with hamas.


Yeah, me too. It seems as if everytime their is a peace agreement, Israel blatantly ignores it and continues to oppress the Palestinians with evictions, murder, blockades and settlements. It is more clear than ever to me that the rockets come because your government can't seem to keep it's hands to itself.

I was able to spend some time with the IDF when I was attached to MFO or Multinational Force & Observers on the Sinai Pen. Many of them would talk about the Palestinians as if they were cockroaches. So sad.

It is more clear than ever to me that Israel is instigating this situation so that they can have an excuse to move forward with their genocide.

--airspoon



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:07 PM
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Eliad,

Are you aware that the origin of that name is Hebrew? Or that it means, "My God is Forever"?

IT seems odd to me that a gentleman, who just joined the site a few days ago would post such bold claims! Do you have any evidence that anything you have just written is accurate?


EDIT FOR ACCIDENTALLY QUOTING


[edit on 9-6-2010 by hyperion.martin]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by airspoon
 


Well in addition to what I said before, I also have to say that there is a fundamental cultural difference here. The line between civilian and military in Palestine is very blurred. As opposed to Israel, where, if I am correct, everyone gets training, but only a few chose to fight.

What you have there is simply the fact that only child deaths are really reliable as possible slaughter. And even then the line is blurred ever more.

I mean, it happens. A desperate people begin to throw away people as weapons themselves. It's a self destructive behavior seen in humanity that is illogical. And yet they do it.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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Great thread. I don't have anything else to add... The numbers speak for themself.

You can bet I'll show this to my family though.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Jonko]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:23 PM
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Thank you for a well written post that shows what is really going on. People need to learn were all human and equal. All life is valuable and has meaning. Not just that of individuals intent on genocide and crimes against humanity because they think theyre "chosen" . THERE IS NEVER JUSTIFICATION TO TAKE A HUMAN LIFE.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by airspoon
 

Let's not be too naive. Numbers do not lie but they can be made to lie, they can be manipulated.
I support Israel but I do not believe they are angels. This conflict has been going on for literally thousands of years. The propaganda is so thick that it is almost impossible to know the real truth. The only people that really know are the boots on the ground there. Each side is going to bombard the rest of the world with as much propaganda as humanly possible to win the support that they desire for their cause....right, wrong or indifferent.
I do support Israel but only because of my personel Biblical beliefs. Judgement is up to God. I don's expect anyone to agree, this is just my reality.
One thing that Israel does is something we all witnessed as kids in school. There was always that tough little guy that when anyone twice their size slugged them in the shoulder or punched them in the stomach, that little guy caused them two or three times the pain that was inflicted on them. Once that was done, the bully found someone else to pick on or at least thought twice before smacking the little guy again.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Expat888
 



All life is valuable and has meaning. Not just that of individuals intent on genocide and crimes against humanity because they think theyre "chosen"

It's important to seperate Judaism from Zionism or even Israel. There are many Jews who believe in their religion but don't agree with the policies of Israel. I don't believe that they are doing this because they are Jewish, rather they are just using Judaism as a cover.

--airspoon



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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who is your terrorist now?

I mean, its pretty obvious that israel doesnt want peace, if they did want, they would ...

the US dont want peace, nobody wants peace ...

I would like to see the numbers from the 911 related wars ... they will be pretty good for a so called "war"



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:48 PM
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It's quite an accomplishment of the media and our governments, considering just how far from the truth the average person on the street knows.

I still recall images in primary school as roughly an 8 year old (20+ years ago) of Palestinians always throwing rocks at soldiers and generally being the 'bad guys'. This has continued for at very least the past 20 years.

It's very simple how this has been allowed to happen in this accesible part of the world right at the end of the medditerean - the media.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:00 PM
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Hello,



Definition of 'Child'

n., pl., chil·dren (chĭl'drən).

1. A person between birth and puberty.

www.answers.com...



Child Legal Definition
Under the common law, a person who is under 14 years of age.

www.yourdictionary.com...



Legal definitions

"The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier." Ratified by 192 of 194 member countries"

en.wikipedia.org...

I have mentioned this before in regards to that exact site.

The general perception of a child is that of a prepubecent, although under International Law and United Nations regulations, a child is defined as a person up to the age of 18.

Considering you can join the British Army as a soldier at the age of 16, I would not define a 17yrs and 11 month old Hamas militant or Palestinian civilian as a child.

In statistics it looks shocking, all these children. In reality it is important to stress that these statistics are interpreted according to the legal definition as opposed to the image of what a child is in most of the world's perception.

That said, I thought the OP was well constructed and presented and I am not here to 'rubbish' that effort.

Just providing a counter point to the mix.

Kind regards,

Skellon.


[edit on 9-6-2010 by Skellon]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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Stevie Wonder could see the disproportion and excessive force being used here.

So...did anyone refute all of this by saying "well they shouldn't shoot rockets", yet?
If not, it's coming.

- Lee



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by airspoon
 


True.. I hold those in power accountable for the deeds they commit. Have learned long ago in my travels around the world that regular people everywhere can and do get along .. Then so-called "leaders" step up and start trouble for their own agenda.. Very few leaders in the world who truly care about the people they lead .. Sadly the ones that truly care are rare.. Its the responsibility of all of us to make the world better and help our fellow human beings when they need it.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:05 PM
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I'm still not convinced about Hamas being the elected party by the Palestinians.
All I hear is "they shouldn't have voted for them, they deserve what they get"

The same line was used on the Americans when Bush took control for a second term, but we all know about vote rigging.

On the one hand, Hamas helps the People with food and shelter, on the other, they toss useless rockets over the fence KNOWING what will prevail.
Either Hamas is incredibly stupid, or there is a bigger conspiracy, and no I'm not implying it's Israel, it may even be from a Arab Neighbor.

There are much better ways for Hamas to fight this War, or to make a point, their actions just don't add up.

Edit to add: and yes, neither does the actions from Israel.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Village Idiot]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by hyperion.martin


Eliad,

Are you aware that the origin of that name is Hebrew? Or that it means, "My God is Forever"?

IT seems odd to me that a gentleman, who just joined the site a few days ago would post such bold claims! Do you have any evidence that anything you have just written is accurate?


EDIT FOR ACCIDENTALLY QUOTING


[edit on 9-6-2010 by hyperion.martin]


It may seem odd to you, but I think you will find that Eliad is far more aware than you know.

All I need to say is read this which is taken from another thread. This is Eliad talking:


I myself am an arab, my grandparents are from syria and turkey, many other israelis are also arab in origin, as I'm sure you must know.
Also my current girlfriend is an arab israeli (it just happened somehow, I guess love has no bounds), so maybe there's hope yet.

So you can probably appreciate the complexities of this place.


Source thread

[edit on 9/6/2010 by PuterMan]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:29 PM
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S & F for the post Airspoon. I wish more people would/could look at these numbers. For me, historical maps of Israel speak loudly.

I said it recently in another post but I'll say it again.

When our federal government is done with their land grab and the banks execute all of the pending foreclosures and people are fighting for their place under a bridge, I wonder how long it will take for those individuals to pick up sticks and stones to defend what little they have and get themselves branded as terrorists?

Not sure how happy I am with my 2 cents a day going to fund this war.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:32 PM
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Which famous author was it that said that there are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, dam-ed lies, and statistics?

Statistics - as given in this thread - do not tell the whole story, and are not objective by any means.

First, we have to consider the source of these numbers. Who is their source, and how can anyone here prove their objectivity? What kind of verification do we have that the statistics given have any validity whatsoever?

This area of the Middle East is a war zone. Keep in mind that in all wars, propaganda - such as these statistics - can be utilized to persuade public opinion. Don't believe everything you read - It is quite apparent that there is a political agenda behind these "statistics".

The fact is, Israel is surrounded on all sides by countries that hate the Jews. What exactly do you expect Israel to do to defend itself?

Frankly, I don't deny the Israelis the right to defend themselves against the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah, internationally recognized terrorist organizations. If you were sitting in your local neighborhood Starbucks, and a terrorist suicide bomber blew up a bomb while you were sipping on your morning cup of Joe, I am sure that you too would favor the steps that the Israelis have taken to defend themselves.

The main reason - as Eliad pointed out earlier - as to why so many civilians have died on the Palestinian side, is because the terrorists deliberately hide among the people, without regard to their safety. They stash weapons, bombs, and the like right amongst families and civilians.

This is a very major, and significant point -- one that your alleged "statistics" refuse to acknowledge.

When Israel attacks these known terrorist cells, innocent civilians are injured or killed. All the while, Israel is NOT targeting civilians - The civilians were unfortunately caught in the cross fire.

Is that Israel's fault? No, it's a propaganda tool of Hamas to persuade public opinion that "Israel is killing innocent civilians". It's dirty pool on behalf of the terrorists, because they purposely hide amongst civilians.

Israel is an important ally to the United States in the region - A region known for thug terrorists that are bent on destroying the west through radical Islamic Jihad. The U.S. is perfectly entitled to support its allies in the region through whatever means necessary - including strong financial support.



“The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” --Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949

Israel has had a claim to this land since the time of Moses. In fact, the very name "Israel" was the spiritual name of Jacob, the father of the 12 tribes of Israel, and an important figure in the Old Testament.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by airspoon
 


I do not wish to further the discussion on this thread, as I said, out of respect, but I will comment shortly-

Your numbers count Israeli vs Palestinian, as opposed to Israeli civilians vs Palestinian civilians, I mention this because I do not consider the hamas to be innocent, the same way I do not consider the soldiers to be so. Also, for example in the case of the cast lead death toll, more than 50% were confirmed terrorists, but in the case of israel, the attacks were directed at civilians, and so there is a larger percent of civilians than soldiers in the death toll.
This would never even things up, I know. But doubling the numbers because you're counting in fighters on both sides is hardly fair, nor is it in the spirit of your post (Israeli abuse of the innocent).
It's misleading.

I would also like to ask you never to compare israel to the nazis, for obvious reasons. It's disrespectful, and untrue.

And as for the genocide. There are, what, 1.5 million people in gaza? Israel killed 7,000 if you count the terrorists over 10 years..

If you think that's genocide, then you have no idea what genocide is.

With respect,
Eliad.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by hyperion.martin
 


Good job on translating

Yes, I am israeli.
I have served in the IDF as a combatant in the armored corps, I'm not sure I should say more than that. I finished my service 1.5 years ago. I am 23.
I know the IDF, I know the soldiers, I know what goes on in the gaza strip.
I am aware of IDF brutality exist, I haven't seen it happen, and if I had I would have had that soldier sent to prison.
I know for a fact that it exists in tiny numbers, as it does in any army. You have to understand, the IDF is composed of so many levels, soldiers, commanders, officers, and all are trained with principles such as the purity of the weapon, which means never to use your weapon against civilians. We have the option of disobeying an illegal order, and these things get nailed into our head since the moment we hold a gun (remember, you're talking about 18 year olds).
Yes, in the heat of battle things go awry. The # hits the fan, as they say.
When you're being fired at from all directions, with mortars, RPGs, and gunfire while running for cover, I dare you to be able not to shoot the next figure that pops out of an alley.
If you've ever been in combat you'd understand. Heck, if you've ever played call of duty you know what I mean.
Some of us (though not me) have to live with this for the rest of their lives. Not as badges of honor, but as weights on their hearts. There is no honor in mistakenly killing an innocent human being.

#..
I said I wouldn't start a debate here, or go anywhere off topic.. And I'm not going to.
Anyway, my point is- it's more complex than you might think.

With respect,
Eliad.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Eliad]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by CookieMonster09
 


The sources for the statistics are given and none of the organizations are known to be biased. In fact, these numbers are extremely conservative as to avoid subjectivety. I could have used more liberal numbers from still respected sources but I used some of the most conservative estimates. If you actually read through the post, you will see were the statistics are sourced.

--airspoon


reply to post by Eliad
 


I compare Israel to Nazi Germany and I feel it is justified. I happen to be Jewish with my ancestors coming to America from Germany. In my opinion, there is no difference. In fact, I would even venture to say that the Germans were far more justified in their thinking (not their actions), than Israel. If you study why the Nazi party came to power and why the German people were anti-Jew (not anti-semitic), you would get a much different answer than you were probably taught. Of course I'm nto saying that the Nazis were justified, only that I can understand what lead to their feelings and I can see how they would look to a political party such as the Nazis. I'm not justifying what they did, only what they thought (the people).

Furthermore, I would like to dispute the actual number of lives lost due to the concentration camps. I'll leave that for another thread and I'll digress.

Also, these numbers count all deaths and they are extremely conservative and most certainly lower than they would be. See my reply to CookieMonster. The sad truth of the matter is that far more Palestinian civilians have does that Israel civilians. In fact, if you discount both side's combatants, you would have an even large gap between the two. This thread was not only about the loss of civilian lives, rather it was to show the numbers, plain and simple. I'm not going to alter them for any reason as that would be interjecting bias into the thread.

I put the numbers out there and even broke them down to see the demographics. Any effort to display the numbers in any other way would have been to interject bias, period.

Does Hamas target civilians? Sure... but so does Israel and Israel is far more effective at killing civilians than Hamas. Just take a look at what happened with the flotilla though that certainly wasn't isolated. I'm not sticking up for either, just displaying the facts.


And as for the genocide. There are, what, 1.5 million people in gaza? Israel killed 7,000 if you count the terrorists over 10 years..


It's not just the killing. It's the evictions, the home destructions, the torture, the deprivation of supplies the refusal to allow Palestinians back into their territories and the imprisonment. It is clear that a genocide is taking place and anyone who tries to deny that is either ignorant of the facts or just plain blind.

--airspoon






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