Israeli - Palestinian conflict by the numbers (The numbers don't lie)

How does slaughtering 1300 + civilians in cold blood , the majority women and children,aid in israels defence?

I will answer....it doesn't.


Murderers.

Plain and simple.

Without your friend on the other side of the pond helping in your perpetual cruelty of a whole population( both militarily and financially)this whole bull# would have been ended long ago.

reply to post by benoni


What snipers? What the hell are you talking about?

Fear of giving birth in checkpoints? Seriously? That's what they're afraid of?

White phosphorous was shot during cast lead, for 9 days.
So they still live in fear of white phosphorous?

All of this really makes lots of sense to you, doesn't it?



Oh yes, this is terror..


And stop it with the "Gaza ghetto that Israel created"!
First of all these borders were decided at the end of the independence war by the Arabs and the Jews! Second when we evacuated the settlements we gave Gaza everything! Complete control over the waters, we gave back all the land, and what did we get in return? Gun smuggling and rockets.

This is not a ghetto.. I wish they could have come and go in and out of Israel as they please, I wish the could have control over the waters, but they'd use it to kill us, why should we allow that?

I am moderate, I am hardly trying to sell myself. My words and the manner in which I speak, speak for themselves. If you had bothered to read, maybe you would know.

What? I've never tried to dispute his numbers, I even said that.
But it is also a fact that 700 of those that were killed in cast lead were terrorists, or soldiers, so why not mention that? It does make a difference, by the way.
And what makes you think civilians are killed in cold blood?! You think just because there's so many of them dead than us, then we must be killing them in cold blood?
There are so many dead because hamas fights out of heavily populated areas, because if forces them to stay in fighting zones while the Israeli army drops pamphlets, calls them on the phone, and sends them SMS telling them to evacuate.
I know it's not enough, but what more can we do?
A general would rather have a civilian killed than have one of his soldiers killed. But it doesn't mean he would give the order to kill a civilian in cold blood.
And the generals aren't the ones on the field!
In this war the line between civilian and terrorist is blurred, where children are used to fight, gather intel, set up bombs, and collect weapons, where men dress as women to surprise soldiers, where homes are used as bunkers, their residents as sand bags, where anyone can just suddenly pick up a gun and open fire, where every dirty trick is used to blur the line between civilian and terrorist including white flags, shooting out of schools, etc.
People don't just walk around with a sign over their heads saying civilian and terrorist! They have no uniforms!
Can you understand the complexities?
Does that mean we kill in cold blood?

The difference between us is that you're guessing, I KNOW.
Your knowledge is fed from biased news reports, and sites like ifonlyamericansknew.com which has a clear bias and agenda.

I know this place, I know the people, I've lived here my whole life.

I'm not saying you're wrong on all accounts- The settlements are bad, they should be evacuated. Israel should go back to the 67' borders and pay the Palestinians compensations, and just make things right.
And it will happen.

But ghetto? Genocide? Ethnic cleansing? No.

The Israeli government has made mistakes, no doubt, but mistakes have been made on both sides of the fence.
Things are not as bad as seen on the news. They are bad, but not like that. Can you accept that?

There will be peace one day. I hope you're praying for that as badly as I do.

Can you see that I understand where you're coming from, I just know the situation a bit better?

With respect,
Eliad.

P.S- English is not my native tongue, forgive any typo..

reply to post by benoni

How does slaughtering 1300 + civilians in cold blood , the majority women and children,aid in israels defence?

Even Hamas is not saying that majority of people killed were women and children. According to Hamas - which has its own agenda - out of 1400 killed (all civilians according to you?) 114 were women and 431 children/minors.
Is it too much? Yes. Is it majority of those who were killed? Depends if one can count.
And by the way majority of population in Gaza are women and children. So cold blood or not - women and children were not targeted. Otherwise number of casualties would be proportional to general population in Gaza.
As for if it helped Israel or not - number of rocket attacks is reduced. Number of Palestinians who will be willing to join Hamas and fight Israel grew. So i am not sure in the result. All i can tell you that if there were no rockets there was no reason/excuse for this war and no blockade.

Spin away my little Jewish friend... Try to market yourselves as the victims...

Yet the stats show something quite different don't they...
??!


I was wondering if you see parallels between Israel and apartheid south Africa???


I most certainly do.

Those statistics don't prove anything.

The Japanese killed a few thousands at pearl harbour and US responded with Nukes.

Israel is holding back due to external pressure.Otherwise the holy land would have been in the hands of the Chosen Ones.

reply to post by Doujutsu


I see your point but there was a little bit more to it than what you describe.

Originally posted by benoni
iaf...

Suppose you believe in the End Times too???

I think you need to go do a bit more homework before you write such drivel again...

jeez...

The only drivel here is coming from your inane post that neither contributes any valuable opinion or any pertinent information. Rather it is exactly the kind of drivel that comes from somebody who has no arguments left.

reply to post by benoni

Spin away my little Jewish friend... Try to market yourselves as the victims...

Well, benoni - you did lie. So what is to spin? Or you think that it is ok to say total rubbish as long as it is about Israel...
And from your reply and attitude i suspect that your moral compass is a little off, so YOU can see in Israel whatever you like. Reality has nothing to do with it anyway.

reply to post by Eliad


"Yeah, you're so right, those Palestinians should never have left their homes, they should have stayed and fought like the Israelis did with their homes that were overrun by Arab armies.
Now they're blaming everyone else for their mistake!
You are so right."
- ELIAD

Eliad"

Yes, I do see what you did there:
Considering the Israelis took un armed palistinian homes while everyone was off at work on a given day and claimed that they were Abandoned
I'd say you just shot all your own reasons for justi#ation right in the head
from behind
considering you have condemned them FOR fighting back so many times

The Palistinians made the mistake of dealing with Zion in good faith.
AS I posted earlier Israels admissin that the blockaid is economic warfare and not self defence has totally blown the Isreali justificatios for the blockade right out of the water.



[edit on 13-6-2010 by Danbones]

Originally posted by Eliad
Fear of giving birth in checkpoints? Seriously? That's what they're afraid of?

YES!!!!

a reminder:

checkpoint births

The Commission reported that soldiers forced 68 pregnant women to give birth on road blocks after barring them from crossing as they were being transferred to hospitals and medical centers.

Also, the PICCR said that the Israeli procedures complicated the lives of the Palestinian civilians including pregnant women by enforcing harsh conditions and carrying illegal practices at these checkpoints.

Since the beginning of the Al Aqsa Intifada on September 28 2000 until July 2006, 68 pregnant women had to give birth at checkpoints, and that 34 infants and 4 pregnant women died on these checkpoints.

perhaps you would have to be a mother to truly understand, but this is a horror that NO WOMAN should ever have to endure!

not your people, not my people, not our people!

HALF of all the births at checkpoints, in this counting, resulted in the tragic loss of a FRESH NEW LIFE.

i can't reconcile that with anything, at all.
it is just wrong.
heinous, horrid, inhumane, and WRONG.

this is the place where all argument, blame-placing, excuses, and even apologetics and apologies should CEASE!

it is a denial of our human rights...which GOD gives us all, regardless of what name we use: The King of the Universe, Allah, Krishna, Ra, Lucifer, Elvis, or even F.S.M.!!!!!

i totally understand that you are living there and living in this situation every day - and i respect and admire you for your civility and dispassionate communication.

but in truth, i could care less which side you come from or which side you are on. in my eyes, there are no longer "sides" - there is just death and senseless inhumanity going on for NO GOOD reason!
there is NO cause for murder!
especially over a STRIP of LAND that is borrowed from our Mother by the grace of our Father.
our MUTUAL Father!

Isaac and Ishmael shared a father, too, for christ's sake!

reply to post by Danbones


I'm not sure you understood what I meant by that-
I'm saying we can coulda-shoulda-woulda this thing all day long.. They were armed, and they did fight the Jews in Palestine, long before the war started, I'm sure you know that.
Nobody's blaming history or god, or politics or whatever.
Mistakes were made on both sides 60 years ago, the biggest on their side was attacking the new found state of Israel (I'm not sure if you know, but the point of that attack was mostly because both Jordan and Syria were aiming for Jerusalem..) and then at the end of the war giving Israel more than what the UN had decided to give it in the first place.

The point was we can sit here and debate about events that had happened before our fathers were born, and we will never get the full picture- This was a war, a full blown war, started by one side, ended by the other, borders were agreed upon, and the stupidity of it all if clear even to me.

But is it relevant to debate this today?

Is it reasonable to call one side of a war evil, or unjust, or criminal, for something that they had done that the other sides had done as well? Many Jewish settlements were wiped off the face of the earth. This was war. Clinging to it in the name of lost honor is meaningless now.

The fact is that christian Arabs did not leave, and did not fight, and became Israeli, and if the muslim Arabs would have done the same non of this would have happened.
But again, as I said, shoulda-coulda-woulda. It is pointless, as nothing can be done now. As I said, mistakes have been made on all sides, and now we're where we are.

Even the Palestinians in the west bank realize this- All they ask us is to evacuate the settlements, give them a part of Jerusalem and compensate them for whatever they have lost. This is achievable, and it will happen.
Then hopefully we can co-exist.
Israel has a big responsibility in making this happen, I agree.

With respect,
Eliad.

P.S the Palestinians never treated the Jews in good faith, the land weren't bought from the Palestinians themselves, they were bought from land owners living the good life in places like Beirut and Cairo, the people who lived on their lands simply worked for them.

Also- One source stating that the blockade was started for economic reasons does not constitute as Israel (Sorry, I couldn't find your thread, so I can't comment on it.. I can only assume it's some kind of a spin..)

reply to post by queenannie38


This is from 2000 to 2006. This doesn't happen any more, things have changed.
But even so, you're completely right.
I don't get it either.. Why would a pregnant woman be held only for being pregnant? They'd just check her like anyone else and let her go..
Could it be that they gave birth while waiting in line to be checked? The lines in these checkpoints would get long at certain times..
I honestly don't know.. And I can't tell, as the article wouldn't tell me anything.

I once had a pregnant woman in my checkpost. The husband the husband went past the whole line of cars and said something like "My wife is leaking" (took us a few seconds to realize he means her water broke), we ran to the car, checked the trunk quickly, and let him through, he was out of there in 2 minutes. But that happened only once, and this was a very small checkpost.

reply to post by Eliad

Mistakes were made on both sides 60 years ago, the biggest on their side was attacking the new found state of Israel (I'm not sure if you know, but the point of that attack was mostly because both Jordan and Syria were aiming for Jerusalem..) and then at the end of the war giving Israel more than what the UN had decided to give it in the first place.

Yes, and they corrected their mistake - they no longer attack Israeli territories given to Israel by UN to gain them back. but Israel did not corrected its mistake - it still occupies more than was given (actually stolen) for him by UN. And since this occupied territories are not Israeli by the UN law, any israeli soldier on these territories can be considered illegal occupant, and therefore can be legally attacked. And even israeli civilians and settlers can be considered illegal imigrants, and therefore can be also prosecuted by legal domestic force - with the destruction of the defending organized army 60 years ago, this domestic force was forced to take on guerilla warfare, but their cause is still equally justified.

Why dont you also correct your "mistake" then?

And I should add that the original UN plan also has its mistakes - it vaguely respected demographic map of the area and gives to israel disproportionaltely too much land, and also the highest quality land. That is the first mistake in my book. And its NOT too late to fix it also, there is just not the will - from israelis side..

reply to post by Maslo


Not really, they rocket attack Israeli cities within the areas the UN gave to the Jews.
www.palestinefacts.org...

Also I'd agree it was disproportionate, but it was more than enough for everyone, as the UN recognized that more Jews would rightfully want to immigrate there, and this area was seriously underdeveloped until the Jews arrived.
The UN gave the Jews the areas that they had mostly bought and settled in anyway, and then gave them the desert which was considered to be worthless at the time (still is hard to settle even with technological advancements) for further development.
The resolution also contained a plan for an economic union between the proposed states, and a plan for the protection of religious and minority rights.
Also I love how they made Jerusalem an international zone.

So in the end it was made with the best intentions, and would have been rather successful had it been implemented if you ask me..

I would agree with you that the settlements are "fair game".. It saddens me to say so, but they should be removed.
Other than that, most, if not all, of the terrorist attacks on Israel have been in the areas given to Israel by the UN- Tel aviv, ashdod, etc.

As much as it pains me to say that although all mistakes can be rectified, not all of them can be just "undone". Even the Palestinians realize that.
That is why the talks right now are about removing the settlements and compensating the Palestinians for whatever they had lost.

You are forgetting that Israel took whatever it took in a time of war, that happens all the time. It shouldn't have been allowed to keep it.
But it was. And by the Arabs, no less! You are forgetting the 49' armistice was signed by all sides of the war, on the backs of the Palestinians!

But now what?
Am I to leave my home because of foolish politics done 60 years ago?
People trusted those idiot politicians and settled those areas and developed them. What are they supposed to do?

That's why Israel, and the west bank, and the US, and every government in the world (except Iran) knows that this will be settled by going back to the 49' armistice lines, with compensations, with talks, and anyone saying otherwise is either trying to set back the peace talks, or is just not a realist.

I think peace is coming, in spite of everything. I think peace will first come to the west bank, and then after the people of Gaza see how the west bank grows they will get rid of hamas and do the same.

It is unfair to say that Israel does not have the will- Israel has been the initiator and driver of all peace talks, and the minute Arafat died we started making peace with Abu Mazzen..
We were a part of the problem, 30 years ago, no doubt, but those days are (hopefully) coming to an end.

With respect,
Eliad.

[edit on 14-6-2010 by Eliad]

reply to post by Doujutsu


Make no mistake about it, the holy land is completely in the hands of the Zionists. They are only tolerating the presence of "terrorists" to circumvent world condemnation, however, they are slowly meeting their ultimate goal, right on schedule.


--airspoon

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by Danbones

 

The fact is that christian Arabs did not leave, and did not fight, and became Israeli, and if the muslim Arabs would have done the same non of this would have happened.

OK I just have to take issue with this little gem. As much as this line of reasoning may seem compelling on a philosophical level removed entirely from reality, it is just that, removed entirely from reality.

Israel, although supposedly the "only democracy in the Middle East" (which in itself is a ridiculous claim - just because the people you don't agree with get elected does not mean that therefore it is not democracy), not only has no constitution guaranteeing the basic civil and human rights of all Israelis whether Jewish, Muslim, Christian or otherwise, but has also repeatedly, through examples FAR too numerous to list in one small post, proven its position on which of these groups is superior by both granting great priviledges to all members of one of these groups while simultaneously persecuting and dealing underhandedly with the others. To some this situation is akin to the US during the segregation period, to others it evokes images of apartheid South Africa. Either way, it is entirely morally unacceptable as well as thoroughly unjustifiable.

Furthermore, last time I checked there are still well over a million Arabs (most of which are likely muslims) living in Israel as Israeli citizens yet they are treated as second class citizens consistently. How can you explain this in the context of your claim?

Oh, and in case you mistake my claims above for rhetoric or propaganda, how about we ask the Israeli supreme court about how fairly and equally Jews and non-Jews are treated in Israel?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This all being said, I greatly respect the fact that you can admit the reality of much of the wrongdoing which has and still is taking place. Your position on this issue is a clear head and shoulders above the crowd who can "see no evil" when considering Israel's actions.

reply to post by dangerouslogic


Can't argue with most of what you said, but this is 60 years later and has a lot to with the conflict with the arabs.. But as the old generations die off the mental barriers are slowly lowered, and what's left are socio-economical barriers.

My point was that if they wouldn't have resisted they wouldn't have been cast out of their homes.
And they would probably have been governed by Arabs, and not Jews, so things might have been different.

At the end of the road there will be equality.

This thread ought to be pinned. Nope...the numbers don't lie. S&F x 10.

reply to post by airspoon


Have you read the book How to Lie with Statistics, published in 1953?

If you did then you missed the point of the book. The purpose of the book was to allow you to spot those who use statistics to lie and deceive.

reply to post by CharlesMartel


I love how you claim I'm wrong, yet fail to elaborate. If anything, I used extremely conservative numbers (in favor of Israel). If you think they are wrong, I'd love to hear or see your explanation with sources to back you up.

--airspoon

Yes, the Jewish people went through some sh**. They've been discriminated against for thousands of years, by Egypt, nazi germany, and many others. I can feel for that, but at the same token, the Palestinians have lived on that land for many many years before the israelies were relocated there after world war 2. the palestinians were a primitive unorganized people with no borders and easily pushed aside. Thats tough luck on that whole situation, both peoples have a right to live. Its just a f'ed up situation. I think the Palestinians have a little bit more claim on the territory though since they were there first. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, Buddhist, etc. It doesn't matter We are all human beings.