Atlantis: The Evidence (Thera)

I especially liked this one:

Small things amuse small minds, like theirs.

With the notable exception (yes, that is ONE exception only!!!) which of your posts was "small"??? I am referring to the "other" thread, where I was as misfortunate as to encounter a royal, majestic and divine Atlantean that offered me plenty of evidence (and how rude of me to demand evidence, what religion ever offered evidence??), evidence like "why don't you just suck it up and believe?" or "my father told me I descent from Kings of Portugal" - btw, my grandfather told me I do NOT descent from Kings of any place, alright? - or "Maegnas Graekos malaka", which is a cuss word in Greek, the last one.

Yes, OP, this thread is bound to "sink", not because it does discuss something different than Aejorian theology and royal madness but because all what was posted there, in its endless entirety and meaninglessness will be posted here too, word for word, anagram for anagram, number by number, until we all desire the sweet release of death, migration to a place where Atlantis was never heard of OR a trip to Azores to settle the score

and how exactly those that have a different opinion than the holy Aejorian one can "disrupt important research"? Do we alter the universe you live in? You saw JA MN in person, you can pull the strings to evaporate us and set things back to normal - a universe with only one inhabitant where nobody disagrees, nobody thinks otherwise, nobody thinks! You are the Atlantean that descents from Kings, right? You can do it!

As I said again, once or twice (or 100 times before, same difference, you won't EVER answer):

Where is the material evidence of what you preach?????

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Maegnas]

To the OP,

I want to say "I told you so" but I won't

Just sit back, grab a huge bucket of popcorn (or chicken wings if you like) and enjoy the show, for from now on we're at church man!! We will enjoy the purest, the frothiest (!!), the most dedicated preacher the world has ever seen...

Kiss your thread goodbye!

Back on topic, in all seriousness!

The only thing that doesn't sit well according to what Plato said about Atlantis is the Pillars of Hercules (or, Ηρακλειαι Στηλαι, in Greek - Pillars of Hercules). There is nothing, today, that corresponds to that and, not to forget, Gibraltar is STILL referred to by many in Greece as Ηρακλειαι Στηλαι.

As for the rest, most of it ties up (especially the description of the stones and their colors is dead on!). If it weren't for that Pillar remark (or was it by poetic license? His royal Godliness will argue that Plato was sworn in when he wrote what he wrote, the DA's office is currently looking for the affidavit but with all the economic crisis looming it may take time, lots of time!), I'd say you have a solid case.

As for the question, "where the Atlanteans went", well most of them where washed by the waves but many survived, enough to set up some "ghost" settlements on Crete, as a reminder of their former Glory! Many perhaps can be found still, living in mountainous areas of Crete, stealing goats from each other, drinking tsikoudia, living to be at least 100 and keeping vendettas many centuries old!

Now I have done it again! I placed Atlanteans in a place where his Holy Majesty has never been born (or raised, or perhaps even visited), how sinful of me!


P.S. Something just crossed my mind (my small mind, according to the "Pope").

there is something called "Στηλαι" on the way to Thera, by ship, from Piraeus. In Sounion, the southern "tip" of Attica, there is a temple, a classical Greek temple (with all those magnificent pillars, many still standing) which by Plato's time was well known and frequently visited, for festivals and stuff. Could that be the Pillars? Could the Pillars be the gateway to the Aegean Sea? And the "Surrounding continent" beyond Atlantis? Is it Africa or Asia Minor (although, that one is not boundless and the Greeks had explored most of its coastline by Plato's time!)?

The, small, mind boggles!

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Maegnas]

Wow. I was going to make a joke about 'him' being like Beetlejuice but decided against it. And then who shows up after you mentioned him three times? Really, what are the odds?

Seriously though, as an amateur atlantologist I'm always hoping that the story Plato gave of the mythical land is true(enough) but, if not, even I must admit that the 'Thera' theory is the next most obvious candidate.

It seems likely that Solon's Egyptian sojourn acquainted him with tales of an ancient land named Keftiu, an island nation named for holding one of the four pillars that supported the Egyptian sky. According to the Egypt legend, Keftiu was an advanced civilization, and was the gateway to and ruler of all of the lands to the far west of Egypt (Greece, Libya, and beyond). Keftiu traded in ivory, copper, and cloth. Keftiu supported hosts of ships and controlled commerce far beyond the Egyptians domain.

By Egyptian record, Keftiu was destroyed by the seas in an apocalypse. It seems likely Solon carried legends of Keftiu to Greece, where he passed it to his son and grandson.

Plato recorded and embellished the story from Solon's grandson Critias the Younger. As in many ancient writings, history and myth were indistinguishably intermixed. Plato probably translated "the land of the pillars which held the sky" (Keftiu) into the land of the titan Atlas (who held the sky). Comparison of ancient Egyptian records of Keftiu identifies a number of similarities to Plato's Atlantis. It seems likely that Plato's Atlantis was a retelling (and renaming) of Egypt's Keftiu.

When Plato identified the location of the land he named Atlantis, he placed it to the west-in the Atlantic Ocean. In reality, Egyptian legend placed Keftiu west of Egypt, not necessarily west of the Mediterranean. In describing Atlantis as an island (or continent) in the Atlantic Ocean, we suspect Plato was merely wrong in his interpretation of the Egyptian legend he was retelling. - www.angelfire.com...

Could Plato's account have just been an embellishment of the ancient Egyptian myth of Keftiu?

This could account for the geographical position on Plato's Atlantis - Keftiu = 'west of Egypt', Atlantis = 'west of gibraltar strait'.

It would also have served Plato's purpose to make Atlantis an unknown island, far, far away. This glorifies the Greeks and also gives a sense of mystery. It could also deflect away from the possibility that Plato 'borrowed' the story from ancient Egypt.

It could be any number of things, only Plato knows for sure

He had to give his story some credibility anyway, maybe that's why he"dressed" it as an Egyptian myth (how many contemporary Atheneans could verify this?).

Originally posted by Maegnas
It could be any number of things, only Plato knows for sure

He had to give his story some credibility anyway, maybe that's why he"dressed" it as an Egyptian myth (how many contemporary Atheneans could verify this?).

probably the most important story in zoroastrianism is the story of yima and the three ringed structure he built that was destroyed by a catastrophe while he and his family survived in a great rectangular vara on the edge of the desert on high ground.

did plato know the most important story in zoroastriamism? there is little doubt that he did.

but since the same story exists in egyptian myth [hidden circles of ra in the lake of double fire] he may have been dressing that one up.

I cannot answer for Plato, only he can do that!

As I said, he MAY have known such myths and MAY have decided to "borrow" elements of those to give some weight to his story. In his story there are no survivors, right?

reply to post by Maegnas


i believe the story tells us who survived. when there is this kind of catastrophe these people survive and when there is that kind of catastrophe the other folks survive. the atlantis catastrophe was one of the two so what part of atlanteans survived?

taking it a bit further we find that geryon [poseidons grandson] was in charge of the vara [but not present] when hercules attacked it.

Thera is just one example of MANY islands/cities that "sank" in the Mediterranean, along similar lines as "Atlantis". Several of these sunken cities have been popping up in the news lately. There's a couple along the Nile delta that are perfect examples, you can find posts about them here on ATS.

Plato would not have made the mistake of not recognizing the Minoans, it also fails to match his description of the SIZE of "Atlantis" in addition to it's location.

Plato defended his tale of Atlantis as actual history as related to him by the Egyptian priest, who allegedly showed him the story carved into a column. His student Xenocrates (Cantor?) was so convinced the story was true he set out on an expedition to find the column bearing the tale (and failed).

The problem with deriving any actual history from Plato's tale is that he wrote in a style known as Socratic Dialog (as we all know), in which he would use historical figures or his contemporaries engaged in a fictional dialog in which we, the reader, would glean the tale, as opposed to the "first person narrative", a literary concept not yet conceived. His dialog's would then be fictional, and as Plato himself admitted, may even contain embellishments, which undermine the effort to resolve precisely exactly what and where "Atlantis" or if it was nothing more than a morality tale.

If you take the tale at face value, then you have to adhere to description of Atlantis which EXCLUDES any "interior" Meditteranean locations. Atlantis "sank" circa 9,600 BC, was the size of a small continent, and lay either just outside the pillars of Hercules or just before them, and the Atlanteans had conquered parts of Europe and N. Africa. To me, that eliminates Thera/Santorini, or any other of the sunken cities along the Greek, Egyptian, or Levant coasts.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
If you take the tale at face value, then you have to adhere to description of Atlantis which EXCLUDES any "interior" Meditteranean locations. Atlantis "sank" circa 9,600 BC, was the size of a small continent, and lay either just outside the pillars of Hercules or just before them, and the Atlanteans had conquered parts of Europe and N. Africa. To me, that eliminates Thera/Santorini, or any other of the sunken cities along the Greek, Egyptian, or Levant coasts.

And therein lies the problem of believing Plato's account was a historically accurate one.

When the theory of plate techtonics was developed in the 1960's (bolstering the claim of continental drift) it demonstrated the impossibility of a lost continent in the geologically recent past. Around the same time the idea of 'Atlantis: The Lost Continent' began to diminish and theorists instead focused on the fictional nature of Plato's Atlantis story.

Plato scholar Dr. Julia Annas, Regents Professor of Philosophy at the University of Arizona, had this to say on the matter:

"The continuing industry of discovering Atlantis illustrates the dangers of reading Plato. For he is clearly using what has become a standard device of fiction—stressing the historicity of an event (and the discovery of hitherto unknown authorities) as an indication that what follows is fiction. The idea is that we should use the story to examine our ideas of government and power. We have missed the point if instead of thinking about these issues we go off exploring the sea bed. The continuing misunderstanding of Plato as historian here enables us to see why his distrust of imaginative writing is sometimes justified."

We must remember that Plato was no stranger to parables with his Chariot Allegory from Phaedrus or his Allegory of the Cave from The Republic being prime examples.

For me, Atlantis too was an allegory - one that used the Minoans of Thera as it's factual (albeit exaggerated) protagonists.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

Plato defended his tale of Atlantis as actual history as related to him by the Egyptian priest, who allegedly showed him the story carved into a column. His student Xenocrates (Cantor?) was so convinced the story was true he set out on an expedition to find the column bearing the tale (and failed).

It was not Plato but Solon who was, allegedly, told the story by the Egyptian priest and it was Solon who, again allegedly, was shown the column on which it was written. Ancient attempts to verify this by finding the column failed, so we are left only with pure hearsay. Modern attempts also failed so the problem remains - we are NOT sure if Plato's story has any historical "weight", so to speak, as we have no evidence of what the Egyptian priest told/showed. If you ask me, only Solon and Plato know and both are in no position to provide answers.

reply to post by LiveForever8


if science disagreed with plato then fine its all allegory but science doesn't disagree with plato.

you have the people where plato needs them doing what they should


including staying away from athens [detail of map [d] above]


these traveling folks had a catastrophe that the world court at the hague says occurred [that is the forming of a freshwater sea at the end of the ice age flooding the homeland]


and when the flood went away mysteriously [as described in the 6th minute of this history channel program]
Cities-of-the-Underworld--Budapest

they came flooding back and carried on

source

a great deal of mythology takes place in a pretty small and well defined area. if science had been to this place and found nothing then i'd agree with the lady but alas science had not been there.

Liveforever8;

Plate teuctonics theory is fictional.
Do you actualy believe that these massive continents move around?
If that was the case, this Earth would have split apart long ago.
The reason the continents "appear" to interlock is due to the flow of water.
What once was the main river became a mighty Ocean over billions of years.

Plato repeatedly addressed that the story being told is true.
Socrates,Critias,Timaeus and Hermocrates all believed it was true.

Why would Plato write a fictional "allegory" and say it was true?
Wouldn't he have just left the script focused on Socrates theme that would prove an allegory?
The allegory was Socrates' theme of an ideal state and civilization, which was the reason why Critias recalled to mind...A TRUE STORY.

Don't believe what all those other one eyed "mainstream muppets" say, believe in Plato. He told you it was true.
Plato is not a liar and neither did he intend the Atlantis legend as an allegory but a fact.
He even tells us that Socrates topic is a theme and the purpose of the meeting in the amphitheatre ca.420.bC, but that Critias' memory was "Triggered" to recall a TRUE EVENT recorded by Egyptians as passed on to Solon.

A True Factual account as written in the texts.
Does no one pay attention to these words, "Truth", or "Factual"?
May as well put "Based on a True Story" at the opening of every hollywood, cartoon or disney movie if people are that naive?

Krete was called Keftiu by the Egyptians, not Santorini,Thera, other than to assume the word Keftiu as a generic term for Minoans which would relate to Thera. The main trade was between Krete and Egypt. Especially the Aghia Triada states and the Great Mesara plains.
Pharaoh Menes and His family were very "attached" to Krete. Menes loved sailing, hence the Narmer fish symbol.

Menes,Minos,Minoan, Atlantean King Mneseus?

Maybe the Phaistos disk holds a clue to Atlantis?

Do you listen liveforever8??

Don't believe what all those other one eyed "mainstream muppets" say, believe in Plato. He told you it was true.

Or you will burn in JA MN's watery hell!

Now, be a nice kid and believe or you will be condemned to reading endless rants of names, dates, numbers, anagrams, distances, star maps, satellite maps, mistranslated hieroglyphs, visions of God (whatever the name), spiritual enlightenment and other exotic animals. what you won't be reading is pointers to evidence, unfortunately the mail is excruciatingly late on those (maybe next May? Maybe then they will be in, if not the May after that!).

Or you can thank ATS for its wonderful features!

reply to post by Maegnas

Originally posted by AeJor_Mn
Liveforever8;
Plate teuctonics theory is fictional.

To be honest I stopped reading once I read that

AeJor_Mn;

Why would he state it was true? Because many portions of the story were true, as I have shown.

I'm not saying the whole thing was a fabrication, I'm saying it was based on ancient Thera and then this factual grounding was embellished upon.

Liveforever8,

It has great amusing value, I must admit. Every now and then there is a rare gem that lights up my day.

I usually don't read the endless name/number/map/translation posts as they offer nothing at all (they just clog up ATS servers by using up valuable space) and my lifespan is not enough to go through them all. Not that I miss anything anyway.

It's kinda like having reruns of your favorite comedy every day!

This thread was a very good read.

The Atlantis story is one I have always loved. Although I would love for Atlantis to have existed in its entirety according to Plato, I know that it is nothing more than a good story. It is a kind of warning against the things that made the fabled Atlantis fall beneath the waves.

Of course there are going to be some references to actual land masses that had existed in legend as well as ones that were current during Plato’s time, that is what helps draw the readers in and get them thinking, “I have heard of that place, the story might be real.”, which is the cornerstone of a really good story. By mixing non fiction with the fiction the story comes to life.

Take one of our current stories for example, In George Lucas’ anthology, he has inserted some real technology amongst the many, many fictional ones and in doing so, has had many fans obsessed with the fictional ones. Though we all know the story as fictional, but is it possible that centuries later this story will turn into another Atlantis, where people claim it to be real? (Actually sad to say, this is already happening, some fans suggest he got the story from aliens or something like that)

By mixing non fiction with the fiction the story comes to life.

The ficition or Allegory was the theme of Socrates, the non-fiction is what Plato preserved about the TRUTH of Atlantis.

Maegnas, who's camel may never cross the sahara, even himself pointed out that Schliemann discovered Troy and Myceanae by reading the GREEK MYTH of Homer's Illiad. Yet he refuses to acknowledge this fact with Plato's Timaeus and Critias that someday, someone, somewhere will find Atlantis.

Plato never wrote that a Volcano destroyed Atlantis and that it was in fact outside of the Mediterranean. The closest thing to Plato's mind at that time would have been Helike.

My theory does take Plato seriously and literally and the fact that Atlantis had to be close enough to the Pillars of Gibraltar to be able to control the entire Mediterranean. Not Antarctica, Greenland or the Americas.

Don't you worry about Maegnas' camel (in fact it is an Escort )

for the first time after 87563745128732 posts with 9762348756361253140 characters in each we hear the moral of the story.

THEORY???? Why didn't you say so in the beginning????

Originally posted by AeJor_Mn
Maegnas, who's camel may never cross the sahara, even himself pointed out that Schliemann discovered Troy and Myceanae by reading the GREEK MYTH of Homer's Illiad. Yet he refuses to acknowledge this fact with Plato's Timaeus and Critias that someday, someone, somewhere will find Atlantis.

AeJor,

First of all, congratulations on making a post of fewer than a thousand characters.

Regarding Troy, if Maegnas actually did make the above statement, he was wrong.

In 1865 an English archaeologist, Frank Calvert, excavated trial trenches in a field he had bought from a local farmer at Hisarlık, near Truva and in 1868 a wealthy German businessman, Heinrich Schliemann, after a chance meeting between the two men in Çanakkale town, also began excavating in this area.[2][3] Later excavations revealed several cities built in succession to each other. One of the earlier cities (Troy VII) is generally identified with Homeric Troy. While such an identity is disputed, the site has been successfully identified with the city called Wilusa in Hittite texts; Ilion (which goes back to earlier Wilion with a digamma) is thought to be the Greek rendition of that name.

Source: Troy

As you can see from the above, the archaeological site we refer to as
"Troy" was discovered by Frank Calvert.

Also, it has never been established that it is Troy at all.

Harte