My beliefs have changed regarding 911

Your final decision/belief really doesn't vary too far from many others.

The bottom line still remains: we were lied to.

Doesn't matter if the buildings were demolished or not at this point.

The focus is on the Pentagon. Once you realize a passenger jet did not crashed into the most protected and guarded building in the world, all other events become moot points.

That in itself is enough for this entire country to storm Washington and overturn their corrupt, lying, cheating, greedy, self-serving. self-electing, birth-certificate hiding, CFR-government of ours once and for all.

And with this new tragedy (the oil spill).....we ain't seen nothing yet.

This government is out to cripple us and bring us to our knees.

Do we all see this by now???

[edit on 10-6-2010 by One Moment]

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by butcherguy

 

I know about a type of ship that is designed to have airplanes land on them(aircraft carriers), but if you crash airplanes into them, they tend to lose their structural integrity, catch fire, explode and maybe sink.

Aircraft carriers are full of fuel (jet fuel for aircraft and if conventially powered fuel oil for the boilers)

As warships are also chock full of things that go BOOM (bombs, rockets, torpedoes and such)

Thus if hit by aircraft have lot more of things that will burn or explode

I suggest you read up on WWWII history - specifically Battle of Midway

Look up book SHATTERED SWORD

I suggest you look up your 911 history then.

I heard this rumor that the jetliners are full of aviation fuel too.

And being conspiracy-minded, I am going to have to say that rumor has some merit.

And people come back with all of these smart*blank* replies, like " there weren't any runways on the roofs of the Twin Towers", I gotta say " NO KIDDING" that's the point.

reply to post by butcherguy

If they never did any such testing, how could they possibly say with confidence that the buildings were designed to handle a crash?

Its called PHYSICS - engineers did paper calculations of the impact forces
of aircraft slamming into building. Force = 1/2 M*V(squared)

Idea was to see if building could withstand the impact without collapsing

As it turned out the buildings (WTC 1 & WTC 2) could and did resist the
impact of jet liner hitting them

Problem was that the enginners didn't and at the time buildings were
designed could not model the effects of the resulting fires. Also in
mean time fuel load in building increased as more synthetic (plastic)
materials were used in the office furnishings

Also failed to account for fact that the fire proofing on the steelwork
would be inadequate and in the impact area would be knocked off
exposing the steel to the fires.

It was the fires causing the steel to buckle which rewsulted in the collapse

reply to post by thedman


"It was the fires causing the steel to buckle which rewsulted in the collapse"

This is what we Englishmen call TWADDLE !

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by butcherguy

 

If they never did any such testing, how could they possibly say with confidence that the buildings were designed to handle a crash?

Its called PHYSICS - engineers did paper calculations of the impact forces
of aircraft slamming into building. Force = 1/2 M*V(squared)

Idea was to see if building could withstand the impact without collapsing

As it turned out the buildings (WTC 1 & WTC 2) could and did resist the
impact of jet liner hitting them

Problem was that the enginners didn't and at the time buildings were
designed could not model the effects of the resulting fires. Also in
mean time fuel load in building increased as more synthetic (plastic)
materials were used in the office furnishings

Also failed to account for fact that the fire proofing on the steelwork
would be inadequate and in the impact area would be knocked off
exposing the steel to the fires.

It was the fires causing the steel to buckle which rewsulted in the collapse

Yes! Star that!
My point exactly.

That is why I posted the results of full scale testing in another 'engineering fiasco'. And yes, it is physics!!! In the example I posted, the PAPER CALCULATIONS were an EPIC FAIL! just like the paper calculations of the engineers of the Twin Towers!

Again, I understand the fire aspect of the collapse and BELIEVE it.
But when someone tells me that the WTC could not have collapsed due to the planes hitting them, because they were designed to handle such an event...... I call BS!

Paper calcs-> epic fail from time to time.

Agreed that the buildings withstood the stresses of the impact, but I don't believe that they withstood the EFFECT of an airliner crashing into them.


[edit on 10-6-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by mikelee
911 was a planned event...By terrorists. The US Government simply took advantage of it and allowed it to further their own agenda. Then they cited "confusion of the day" to explain why they didn't act/respond in better time.

Well said, sir! It just simply amazes me how these conspiracy people will say it's all a secret plot and accuse everyone from the CIA to the military to Israel to the Masons to secret cults of Satan worshipping numerologists. One guy even theorized recently that it was the work of imperial Japanese agents in revenge for killing Admirtal Yamamoto. Apparently to them, the only ones completely innocent in all this is Al Qaida.

In the real world, we see the entire Islamic world so humorlessly fanatic that they go ballistic whenever Danish newspapers print cartoons about Mohammed, and we see the gov't so bumbling that it can't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane victims in New Orleans without stumbling into walls and slipping on banana peels. You don't need to be a Rhodes scholar to see who'd want to pull off the 9/11 attack, and how it turned out to be so successful. Everything else is simply a daydream.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


In the real world, hyjacked planes that go off course, and fly towards a couintry's political and economic centres, are intercepted, and shot down if nessecary.

If you believe a country like America would let some Arabs with boxcutters succeed with this by accident, you are naive like a little schoolgirl.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
Very well put!

LIHOP is the only conspiracy that has any legs at all, and may not be valid either!

Originally posted by mikelee
reply to post by SmokeandShadow

 

I do not know what LIHOP means but your post is well stated. Star to ya

By your own admission you say you have researched 9/11 and don't know what LIHOP means?? To me that seriously undermines your credibility as a researcher.

Remember "The Matrix" when one of the characters says something to the effect of "I know this steak is not real but I don't care anymore...I want steak." I get the feeling you are tired of the truth. Me too, I am tired.

LIHOP is a conspiracy and treason as much as if Dick Cheney piloted one of the planes himself. Sorry Mikelee there is no relief for you and your conscience. TPTB betrayed our country that day. You can believe your eyes.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

In the real world, hyjacked planes that go off course, and fly towards a couintry's political and economic centres, are intercepted, and shot down if nessecary.

If you believe a country like America would let some Arabs with boxcutters succeed with this by accident, you are naive like a little schoolgirl.

I would bet that the terrorists involved would beg to differ with you about it happening 'by accident'. They took flight training and prepared for the event.

In the days before 911, I was on 747 trans-Atlantic flights that I KNOW I could have carried a large frame .44 Magnum pistol on board.

So I don't have much of a problem with believing that a crew of Arabs that took flight training in the US could have carried on box cutters to cut the throats of flight crew and attendants.

Especially when you look at the record, post-911. How would you think it would be possible for terrorists to get explosives on board a plane now?

Yet they have done it!


[edit on 10-6-2010 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by mikelee
Insults do not add to your intelligence. They diminish it.

To Mikelee: I do try to point out that the conspiracy theorists behave less like a group of serious researchers and more like a bunch of religious fanatics goosestepping to their ideological tenets, but pointing it out is in pale comparison to seeing it first hand for yourself.

Here you are, posting your own independent thoughts, and these conspiracy people attack you with such venom like you said you wanted to have sex with their mothers, or something. It's obvious they have such a strong emotional attachment to these conspriacy claims that any attack on their conspiracies is perceived as an attack on them personally. You're not simply someoen who disagrees with them. To them, you're a heretic.

Whatever is driving this blind zealotry of their, it is NOT out of an honest desire to learn the facts behind the 9/11 attack.

The Towers were dustified by exotic weapons....either DEW or nuke...I am not sure yet which, as nuke cannot explain the cars and truck damage and certain other anomalies.

ONLY DEW answers most of the questions, and I imagine that the perps used various means: Normal explosives as seen making 30 ft. sections for easy removal, and thermate for melting corners, as seen with dripping steel in pics, perhaps a small nuclear fission/fusion device was used below to seperate the core...that would be the lower level blasts like reported widely, and exotic weapons for the actual dustification.

Normal explosive cannot reduce almost 100% of concrete, steel and people into a fine dust just from a collapse...impossible.

The OP has a right to his opinion, but to me it is incredible that anyone could believe the official story after so much evidence has been shown and not refuted. There is comfort in a delusional belief of safety I guess..

reply to post by butcherguy

I would bet that the terrorists involved would beg to differ with you about it happening 'by accident'. They took flight training and prepared for the event.

Sigh. By accident, meaning they let the hyjacked planes fly, and did not intercept them, by accident.

That just doesn't happen by accident.

reply to post by Hulk Hogan


This requires, again, some clarification, because it is a commonly repeated (by many "conspiracy" folk) misconception (This goes to ATS member Point Of No Return, as well re: a post later):

but not for one second, can I believe the government has been honest. when payne stewarts plane went off course, within 10 minutes f16's were on his ass.....BEFORE 9/11!

No. Not "10 minutes". AND, not in the way you imply.

The circumstances, as well, are totally different.

Here, here is the timeline for the Payne Stewart Learjet incident:

(From the NTSB report)--

"At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response".

\

www.ntsb.gov...

As you can see (and if you recall the case, the airplane depressurized, and the pilots' O2 system had been left in the OFF position, due to poor/inadequate preflight checks) the airplane, thus left on autopilot, with everyone onboard unconscious, dying or already dead continued on, as programmed.

The ONLY reason there was an intercept within, as shown, the the roughly 20 minutes (not 10) was by coincidence, an F-16 was in the vicinity, on a training flight.

It was not 'scrambled' in response to that tragic occurence.

The "conspiracy" websites love to, shall we say, "embellish" this, and MANY, MANY other aspects of that day, in order to peddle their flagrant nonsense, the majority of the time.

NUKES?

DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS?

I think that this is entering the realm of fantasy. Sorry, but I know of no other way to put it.

reply to post by weedwhacker

The "conspiracy" websites love to, shall we say, "embellish" this, and MANY, MANY other aspects of that day, in order to peddle their flagrant nonsense, the majority of the time.

WW, you're the spewing BS again.

Are you saying that if I could hyjack a plane, I would be able to go off course, and fly toward your country's economic centre, or to your country's political centre, for an extendend period of time, and not face any militairy attention?

That's completely surreal and laughable.

Originally posted by mikelee
After spending some time away from the 911 forum and doing some investigation into the 911 events to satisfy my own curiosity I now have some changed beliefs in what happened.

I am pleased you have taken time away from the 911 forum and done your own research. However, I think it would be wise to go away again and do a little more, as anyone that thinks that 911 was not an inside job has clearly not researched hard enough. I won't list the discepencies because there are to many to mention, however what I will say is this: What reason would the authorites blatently lie in the report about the trajectory of the plane that 'slammed' in to the pentacon,if not to cover something up?

In order to gain an understanding of how TPTB work one needs to study all of the facts of the conspiracy and not be selective.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by butcherguy

 

I would bet that the terrorists involved would beg to differ with you about it happening 'by accident'. They took flight training and prepared for the event.

Sigh. By accident, meaning they let the hyjacked planes fly, and did not intercept them, by accident.

That just doesn't happen by accident.

Yes, you are right. It didn't happen 'by accident', it happened because of extremely poor government planning and short-sightedness with regard to the capabilities of terrorists.

I am not saying that it isn't POSSIBLE that the government knew or had some idea that something was going down that day.

I am saying that there is very little evidence of it, and in that light one should look at the most likely scenario as that which actually happened.

ETA: SIGH.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by butcherguy]

I've been led to believe that the truth movement is less supported by evidence, and more supported by speculation.

I was first put onto the idea by Alex Jones, who I no longer take seriously.

But I always wanted to sit down with a seasoned truther, and a true expert of what is widely believed to have happened. I wanted to sit down with these two opposites and discuss, in detail, what had occurred that day. Looking over the evidence, and not allowing for personal attacks, only concise evidence.

This is why, out of the entire 9-11 event, the only thing I really had any question about was the alleged pools of molten metal.

Though, for some reason, I've always felt that it would be harder for a truther to prove their case.

-----

Unfortunately, now I'm left feeling like an ass, unsure about many things.

I never identified with the whole, "TPTB are an insidious force/TPTB are a cult of madmen/TPTB are a super-secretive group."

In my mind, the PTB are nothing more than normal people with a chip on their shoulder; maybe they're just idealistic and have the money to spend. It could be a bunch of things. – In any case, I can understand why/how they could commit to the things they do, and how it could be made into ... something necessary for positive change.

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I'm still not entirely sure about what happened. I wish I was more versed in mathematics and sciences. I guess this is why I've been steering more towards societal issues than debating the finer points of these events.


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One thing is for sure, I'm becoming less trusting of both the MSM and the community around me. It seems that I must go out, of my own accord, and become an expert in every field.
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reply to post by butcherguy

Yes, you are right. It didn't happen 'by accident', it happened because of extremely poor government planning and short-sightedness with regard to the capabilities of terrorists.

Jeah, that is "by accident', meaning they didn't purposely neglect it.

It has nothing to do with planning or knowledge of terrorist capability.

Intercepting planes that go off course, or any unidentified aircraft, is standard procedure, especially if they are flying towards your capital or economic capital.

The fact that they weren't intercepted, is breach of procedure, wich has to been done on purpose.

Get it now?