How addictive is alcohol really? Allen Carr vs. AA.

Apologies for a short thread, with more questions than news or information.
Having grown up in a culture partial to booze, I recently read Allen Carr's book titled "Easy Way to Control Alcohol" www.reviewcentre.com... It seemed to argue against the Alcoholic's Anonymous (AA) position that the "alcoholic" is a seperate persona from social drinkers, and is abnormally and genetically prediposed to alcohol abuse and addiction. Instead, it argues that ALL drinkers are at risk of sliding towards total addiction or massive physical harm. It also claims that after reading the book people are somehow empowered to have a last drink and never drink again. Apparently the book aims to argue and shock people out of drinking. For me, it only worked for a week. Has anybody ever stopped drinking or smoking with the Allen Carr method?
Is the alcoholic a prediposed persona, or are they just drinkers who progressed to the worst effects faster?

Now we have some visitors from Islamic countries where alcohol is banned, or at least illegal. They now want to ask before they drink on holiday: "Is it safe? How addictive is it?"
I don't quite know how to answer that.

PS. I've tried to paste web links on Allen Carr here, from Wikipedia to book reviews. For some reason the "page" is never displayed, not sure why.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by halfoldman]

I think it is at first mentally addicting, because for one it is so easy to get, and you are certain of the cure it brings. I had some problems, drinking at work, in my car, alot. Last month I flipped my car in a ditch from driving recklessly after work, after drinking at and after work with a buddy. No one got hurt. I lost my job as a professional landscaper shortly thereafter from being caught on the job with a 4 pack of high life. Shortly before that, I got my self in trouble with a large group of people because I was drunk at the beach in the evening, got my orbital eye bone sunken in from a kick to the face.

Alcohol must be addicting to certain people because I keep finding myself there.. for no other reason than to walk through the door of drink into the house of chaos. I drink because I've concvinced myself that a time spent is better spent with drink.

This attitude is my folly and I know this, and I know the chains are as easy to slip off as they are to attach.

I'm 21 and haven't been to aa, but I agree with Carrs thoughts about how anyone can slide into comfort with the drink.

I think it's important to remember that it's just as easy to do good things as it is negative things. To be slave to positivity, that is one of my aims.

reply to post by halfoldman


I have had close relations with persons who if they did not get a drink by 9:30 AM would have a seizure on the sidewalk...unlike coc aine or meth addiction (but like heroin) you can drink yourself into a situation of physical addiction where you have to punch the timeclock with another dose or else...this is not another medical bit of hoo-hah, personally and unequivocally I can attest to it...

reply to post by halfoldman


I think like alot of things its peer pressure that bring you to it.

But i also think all people that drink are not far from addiction. Drinking becomes a norm and the all these people seem to want a drink to be social able, and without it are a pain like all of us.

But i do agree that drinking is one step from addiction, not sure though why they claim only some are addicted, as plenty it seems to me are alcos.

I, myself am a terrible binge drinker.
I can go a day or 2 without it, but then i'll be back on it for2,3 sometimes up to 4 days straight. I barely sleep or eat, and will be sick for up to 2 days afterwards. i have been admitted to hospital a few times with severe dt's. then when i feel better again i'll be back at. I know get bad panic attacks when im comming off the drink, for which i take librium.
Im only 26 and have been like this for a few years. its a terrible way to live, i hate it and am now getting help. but its hard because its been such a habit for years.

I think addiction depends on the person. Some people have very addictive personalities and can almost get addicted to anything. I for one, am one of the lucky ones, if I drink too much, I get a hangover from head to toe that lasts for days ., making it very hard to slide into total addiction. I am addicted to certain foods though - no willpower.

That said, it is fun, especially when you're younger, and I would go out every weekend, and spend the next three days on the couch sipping gingerale. It was almost like I was trying to be a drinker, like everyone else.

Now that I have grown up a bit I realize the health problems from alcohol which include cancers, liver and kidney problems, accidents, fights, embarrassing situations.........

Now I just stick to the odd coffee and liquor, with the knowledge that alcohol can be one of the most dangerous substances out there.

reply to post by ulsterman


damn man I am sorry to hear it.

this is from the bible, it always seemed so human to me.

"I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."

Everyday every person feels this exact way, but hardly anyone admits. I will do what I can to help you, I will pray for you to become a powerful sovereign, king of your actions and slave to no snare.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by depth om]

reply to post by depth om


thank you, i apprecite it.

i understand what you said about i do the thing i hate. because i really dont even enjoy drinking anymore, as i know the pain to expect when i finally stop. yet somehow, i keep doing it

While there may be some sort of addict gene, or learned addictive behaviors from ones social economic environment...I really believe that most drinkers are just people with highly addictive traits...if they get off the alcohol they may become smokers or get addicted to food or sex or whatever. One has to learn how to deal with that addictive, almost OCD like behavior.

I am also against AA's and most peoples cold turkey never drink again form of quitting. I believe in moderation. If you have a beer or two you are not a failure, you are not a relapsed hopeless drunkard...sometimes it's nice to have a beer with friends, the challenge is just having a beer or two then switching to water or soda. People need to be taught how to drink in moderation, and that being completely tanked is not a good think physically, mentally, or even socially. Even Jesus drank wine at the wedding, getting drunk however is a sin.

It seems to depend upon the person.

My brother is an alcoholic. He wasted about 15 years of his life.

Somewhere in his forty's he got off alcohol and his life has improved dramatically.

I am not an alcoholic. In college we drank a fair bit, but in real life I go long periods of time weeks to months without a drink but most of the time I drink a glass of wine about 3 times per week. I do like the relaxed feeling I get from my glass of wine, but it's not an addiction to me.

I will back up nine-eyed-eel post.

When you are truly addicted to alcohol you will get sick. This can at least be as severe as heroin withdrawal.

It takes a long time to get that addicted and it usually just comes with the flow.
Until a day comes where your body screams for more.

Thank god for less harmful alternatives! I have tried to become an alcoholic for decades and never guite got the hang of it. It is a horrible addiction and kills thousands every year. I think some people just can't get addicted to it, even thought they can get addicted to other chemicals.

reply to post by ulsterman

I recall reading that beer and wine were regarded as "lower risk" historically, and that the first temperance movements in the US (who would eventually cause a chaotic decade of Prohibition) were only against distilled spirits. In fact they would at first have temperance marches organized from the ale-houses!
They say alcoholism mimics that cultural progression from beer to wine to spirits.
Perhaps it's because because distillation was invented by an Arab that alcohol was banned by Islam (although there are Muslims with other interpretations)?
Perhaps sticking to beer or wine helps?

I learned to drink in Germany and began at a very young age.

We would sometimes buy cold beer after playing soccer at 13 years old ! If there wasn't anything else cold !!

Their laws are much more lax when it comes to alcohol. As long as you don't act like an a$$hat while drinking that is.

As long as you follow the German doctrine to drinking which is to have food with your Beer you can almost guarantee that you will feel fine the next day.

After a nice full and heavy meal of Bratwurst or Knockwurst, Potatoes and Kraut. You can pound the Beers with the best of the Germans !

Which is their secret BTW !!

But it does teach you balance in drinking.
Americans tend to not eat before drinking and get completely $hitfaced as a result !

That also is a pathway to alcoholism. For Alcoholics simply don't eat.

I agree in that the addictiveness of alcohol has much to do with the individual and his genetic makeup though.

It has been shown that alcoholism is hereditary.

Similar to people who tend to eat to excess, their body doesn't signal the Brain that one's stomach is full.

Fortunately for myself, I cannot drink alcohol to excess. Without getting sick first.

But nevertheless, I guit drinking anything beside Beer years ago.
Not even wine.

It not only saves me alot of cash, (booze/wine is expensive), I no longer wake up with hangovers !

I used to drink myself into blackouts. I began with social drinking, but I often drank too much. I didn't know how to pace myself. After going through re-hab and AA for about five years, I suddenly realized that I was admitting to something that I caused. I was admitting that I could never have a drink because alcohol controlled me. I was regurgitating the AA line that if I had one drink, I would be right back where I was when I quit.

I had one beer. A few months later, I had another. Alcohol was not the disease that I'd been led to believe. Alcoholism was a symptom of my emotional and psychological problems. Once I faced myself and and took responsibility for my life, alchohol no longer seemed necessary. I entered AA in 1989 and left in 1995. I no longer fear alcohol. I will drink socially on occasion and I have one beer a night as part of my relaxation ritual. I have not beem drunk since 1989.

Too many drinks will make you drunk. Too many days of drinking will create a physical addiction. I drink a beer because I like the taste. I don't eat a whole bag of cookies becase I fancy a taste, and I don't drink a six pack when I want a beer. Everything in moderation.

In my experience, alcohol addiction is rare, but it does exist. Alcohol withdrawal can be fatal.

Most people who abuse alcohol are not addicted. When they sober up, they suffer no more than a hangover.

There may be many social and psychological reasons why these people continue to drink and there may be physiological reasons why they cannot stop once they've started, but their condition cannot accurately be called addiction.

Nonetheless, alcohol is a very dangerous substance that has an enormous negative impact on those who abuse it, their families, neighbors, co-workers, and society-at-large.

reply to post by nh_ee

It has been shown that alcoholism is hereditary.

While I cannot really disagree, I just wonder: if somebody comes from a "dry" culture and tries drink in another country then by that argument they should be OK, and exempt from long-term addiction. After all, alcohol has been banned there since AD 800, so they cannot have hereditary issues?
Or is alcohol like meth or heroin, and its introduction into an alcohol free society is catastrophic (as colonial history suggests). We have just learnt rules about it, which we cannot always odey.




[edit on 9-6-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by darkelf


see, thats my problem. i have never known moderation.
i drink to get drunk, not to enjoy it, i cant enjoy it anymore as i dont even want to go out of the house once i start. the curtains ar closed and the door is locked. i either have to learn to try and have 1 or 2, which i dont think i can, or else learn to stop alltogether. which is hard for me

True alcoholism is the result of a genetic propensity mixed with environmental triggers. This is the same for any chronic illness. It seems that alcoholics are coping with the immense stress their bodies are under, without even realizing it! A fish doesn't realize he's in water..

Check it:

The first major advance in addressing alcoholism was the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous by Bill Wilson to provide a support group for problem and chronic drinkers, based upon the premise that alcoholism is a disease with major physical / mental symptoms. The second major advance was also made by Bill, when he recognized and later promoted the view that orthomolecular treatment was essential for the treatment of those addicted to alcohol. When Dr. Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. discovered in Saskatchewan that Niacin (vitamin B3) was therapeutic for schizophrenia, including the 10 percent of the schizophrenic population that was also addicted to alcohol, Bill was persuaded to study the effect of vitamin B3 on members of Alcoholics Anonymous in New York, who were not drinking, were not schizophrenic, yet remained very tense, restless, depressed and tired. He found that, out of a series of 30 patients, 20 were relieved of all these symptoms in about two months. Bill Wilson distributed this information to members of AA in a series of three Communications to Alcoholics Anonymous. These publications generated a lot of controversy from the International Board, which Wilson had created, down to local AA groups. The main opposition came from the medical members of that group, who believed that no layperson such as Wilson had the right to talk about the medical matters of alcoholism (i.e. the use of vitamin B3). This comment, coming from conventional medical doctors, astonishes me; not one nutrition course was required for a medical degree in the 1940s and their attitude certainly displays a lack of supplemental training in nutrition and nutritional sciences. Even today conventional medical doctors remain predominately clueless themselves as to the function and use of vitamins, minerals, EFAs and amino acids in the human body Today an average of 8 - 12 hours of nutritional education is offered to medical students in some schools - this still does not qualify them to be authorities in any capacity regarding nutrition or nutritional supplementation. Apparently, for the AA physicians of the time, MD stood for Medical Divinity and Bill's findings and requests for further study were dismissed simply because he didn't have a degree in medicine, which would not have better qualified him anyway, nor did it qualify the physicians to dismiss the positive results and stop further investigation of something that was actually helping alcoholics get sober and feel better. Bill was eventually forced to do his work outside the International Board. Bill did just that and his findings were corroborated by Dr. David Hawkins and by Dr. Russell Smith in publications of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine. Instead of healing the known damage caused by long term alcohol abuse and addressing the genetic markers that establish addictive biochemistry as a method of curing the illness, today the 'medical experts' that have the attention of those in AA and related 12 step programs, as well as the facilitators of these programs and conventional treatment facilities, are freely drugging people with Naltrexone and other toxic drugs such as the "date rape" drug which can cause serious health risks in addition side effects which take the glory of their short lived sobriety away. Anti depressants are also a favorite drug for those treating alcoholism to dispense / push. In addition to the serious side effects and health risks these drugs impose, which I will explore in the Treatment Options section, antidepressants basically turn you into a cross linking zombie, just alive enough to experience the drug's side effects, including in some cases, a risk for cancer more profound than that of a person who smokes a pack a day. I find it criminal and extremely sad that these people who are seeking AA and 12 step programs to be healthy and happy again are misled down another road of dependence, sub-optimal lifestyle, and health risks while the original symptoms continue which are the cornerstone of relapse - it just doesn't make sense. Nothing much has changed since Wilson was ostracized by the very group of physicians he assembled and who preferred to ignore - as they do today - the success of orthomolecular medicine regardless of its profound success then and now.

Linky

[edit on 9-6-2010 by unityemissions]

reply to post by ulsterman


Forgive me, you can get this stuff called lithium orotate from vrp.com, it's cheap...try it and see if it makes you want to drink less...is my advice...

I'm not saying it's magic, but you might be surprised ...some of my friends have found it surprisingly helpful, I'm just saying...

Anyways...Good luck and all, is what I really mean to express, yupyup.