The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

Originally posted by dawnstar
ya, kind of like how the african americans and white slave masters complemented each other so well, before lincoln came on the scene and broke the chains....now, oh, my god!! those african americans can tell the white folks where to go and become managers, doctors, and hey if they work real hard, and have a little luck, might even make it to the white house!!!

1) Race card won't work because women are not a minority group and never have been!
2) Race holds those back who let it hold them back. Are you aware of how many successful African-Americans there are in the US? Have you seen how many have turned their lives around with hard work and determination?
3) Comparing black slaves and their white masters to the men-women relationship of the past is like comparing...well I am not sure I can think of such an illogical example to complement it.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
1) Race card won't work because women are not a minority group and never have been!

A sociological "minority group" isn't necessarily about numbers. It's about power.

What is a Minority Group?

A subordinate group whose members have significantly less control or power over their lives than members of a dominant or majority group

Not limited to mathematical minority: example women, Blacks in South Africa, Blacks in Mississippi and South Carolina in the 1920's

Interchangeable with subordinate group

A group that experiences a narrowing of opportunities (success, education, wealth, etc) that is disproportionately low compared to their numbers in the society

Originally posted by Dalamara

I was having lunch with a female friend and she nonchalanty mentioned that she wasn't really sure if she really liked her boyfriend. But she said she could put up with him until she found someone better because he bought her things.

My husband's 90 year old gramma - married her husband because "she wanted things" - - and he was good at providing them for her.

You don't even realize you're talking about natural instinct. Male as the provider.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by Annee]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You're implying that men are exempt from this. Men rape, men speak words of love to get into a girl's pants, men leave pregnant women and their children. Men cheat on pregnant wives. Why can't you admit that men can be jerks? Why does this truth offend you so, to the point that you have to deny it completely? Because it's true. And any man worth a second look will readily see that.

And will have the balls to admit it.

It's not something that needs to admitted because women - mostly Feminists - see it as self-evident. You are a man, therefore you are probably a jerk. Please don't act like this is not the case. Turn on the news. People are free to criticise and generalise men in all forms of media, but they are not free to do the same with women.

I have the balls to admit that women can be evil. I've seen it. That doesn't mean that ALL women are evil or that I hate myself. It's not black and white.

Check out the gray area.

No offence, but you don't actually have balls. What you are saying in essence is that it is fine to generalise men negatively because men themselves admit this is the case, but to do so with women is not ok. I guess it means little whether men have been conditioned to demonise other men?

I see you "have the balls" to proclaim that WOMEN are jerks. I don't think "having balls" means what you think it means.

On a forum that is swarming with Feminists and Echo-Feminists, yes he does have guts to make such a bold statement. Although I do not agree with it because most women I have met have been pleasant company.

Everything can be said about men, too. Men see women as a means to an end. They USE women for sex, status, to get accolades from their friends and to make their meals and keep them from being lonely. They think nothing of cheating on their women and they DO NOT TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION the pain they cause the women as they use them.

This is what you are not understanding. It is acceptable and encouraged to make these generalisations about men, whereas it is not acceptable to do the same about women.

Example: Woman tells male friend "I can't believe he used me like that, I don't get men. They are scum". What are the odds the male friend will agree and not challenge this notion? It has happened to me and I found myself explaining in detail all the negatives about men. It was just brought out of me by what she said. It was at this point I began to think "wait a moment, what am I saying and why am I saying these things?"

I know you're only 23 but you better start seeing the reality of things. Men are jerks, too.

The reality is that men and women deserve the same rights and opportunities but they are different in many ways. Feminists pretend that gender does not matter when women have everything to gain and men have everything to lose. The moment the same standards are applied to situations where women stand to lose, THEN the differences are acknowledged and THEN men are allowed to be men and women are allowed to be women. Now THAT is closer to reality.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
It's not something that needs to admitted because women - mostly Feminists - see it as self-evident.

That makes absolutely NO sense. And I think you know that.

You are a man, therefore you are probably a jerk.

No one here is saying that. And you know that, too.

Can you debate with what I actually said? Or not?

What you are saying in essence is that it is fine to generalise men negatively because men themselves admit this is the case, but to do so with women is not ok.

I am not saying that. In essence or otherwise. Can you only debate with me when you put words in my mouth?

This is what you are not understanding. It is acceptable and encouraged to make these generalisations about men, whereas it is not acceptable to do the same about women.

I disagree. Generalizations are made about both genders. Men are not victims here. You may not notice the generalizations about women so much as they don't affect you like the ones about men do. If you don't think women are generalized I suggest you read this thread with that in mind. You'll find TONS of negative generalizations about men AND women.

Example: Woman tells male friend "I can't believe he used me like that, I don't get men. They are scum". What are the odds the male friend will agree and not challenge this notion? It has happened to me and I found myself explaining in detail all the negatives about men. It was just brought out of me by what she said. It was at this point I began to think "wait a moment, what am I saying and why am I saying these things?"

You sound like a victim. Does it occur to you that some of the stuff she said might be true about some men? Why shouldn't a woman who's been used respond in this manner? And why shouldn't you agree if it's true? It doesn't mean all men are scum.

Feminists pretend that gender does not matter when women have everything to gain and men have everything to lose.

A negative generalization. See, even you do it.

The moment the same standards are applied to situations where women stand to lose, THEN the differences are acknowledged...

I actually agree with you. I'm one of those CRAZY feminists who believe in equal standards. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but even feminists sometimes break the generalizations.

[edit on 6/16/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Benevolent Heretic, I respect the way you are able to maintain your composure and remain polite and considerate to those who you are debating with. You have demonstrated these qualities consistently in all threads you reply in.

The thing is that we are coming from different worlds on this issue. Our perspectives on this issue are so astronomically different that it will be extremely difficult for us to find common ground. I guess it also comes down to the fact that we are from different generations and demographics.

I don't feel I can add anything more to this thread without repeating myself or getting other people unnecessarily angry. There are plenty of women around the world who have and continue to vocally voice their opposition to Feminism. Some even believe that the Feminist movement has tarnished the image of the average woman.

The point I am trying to make is that while it might seem otherwise, men who oppose Feminism are not doing so because they have an innate dislike of women. The best evidence, imo, is to read the stories of former Feminists and why they chose to dissociate themselves with the movement.

But anyway, good luck to the rest of you discussing this topic. Remember that the ill-feelings you feel toward the opposite sex have likely been conditioned into you. Men and Women are very different, but when they work together they are much more complete.

Originally posted by Edrick

Who is going to mine all of the coal to run the power-plants that produce the electricity that you NEED to work your cushy 9-5 telecommunications job?

Just so's you know little bunny, working in a power plant is not hard physical labor. You see, I actually know some power plant workers, I am not just talking out of my fluffy little tail. I helped build a power plant. AND some of those power plant workers are female. Mining is, and its dangerous too. But women have mined both in the past, and in the present.

www.fordham.edu...

I myself am a plumber/heavy equipment operator and can break a bunny in two with my bare hands.

The majority of women are smaller, and less strong than the majority of men. Thats true. But INDIVIDUAL women can be rather tall, and strong, and INDIVIDUAL men can be rather small and unimposing.

And for all the women out there, most of the guys who actually work these "manly" jobs arent as insecure as some of the men posting in this thread. Obviously, they dont want women in the positions who have no intent to actually perform, who are all, "would you CARRY this for me?" But if a woman can do the work, doesnt ask for special treatment, and can tell a mean joke, you are all in.

I just love how the bunny men pretend to speak for ALL men or even MOST men. As if some of us dont work with men all day long.

As for your other silly comments, I was the top student in ALL the sections my chemistry teacher taught, top in my calculus class, top in statistics, top in my CMA class, and after leaving business school by choice to degree in philosophy, also a highly male dominated field, I graduated with that degree Magna Cum Laude, missing Summa by the barest of margins because of a couple B's I got in my required fine arts courses.

Dont generalize. There are always exceptions to every rule. And just so's you know, I didnt choose any of those aforementioned options because I wanted to prove anything to men or to be like one. I chose them because I LIKE them.

And I am the last person YOU want in the kitchen, silly rabbit. I might make some bunny stew for supper. Mmmmmm.



[edit on 16-6-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


Have you ever gotten out of a particularly bad relationship and stated "Women are bitches, man"! Sounds like that's what happened in this conversation you posted. Women CAN be bitches and men CAN be jerks. What's the problem with recognizing that? I know I've been used by men and stated that men are pigs. I was HURT. I was generalizing. This happens and it's human.

didn't think I would be getting back into this thread, and I'm probably going to get some heat from this post, but I just gotta say it...

I like a bitch.

now consider this... how do most guys describe a bitch?

I want my woman to stand up for herself, speak her mind, get in you face if you've wronged her...

classic definitions of what most people claim a bitch does.

I like sass, and confidence in a woman.

the difference in my opinion is knowing when to do this, and not being a complete bitch and flying off the handle every opportunity that presents itself.

more women(correction, PEOPLE) should speak their mind, tell others how they feel. and yes doing that sometimes hurts others feelings, but it's better than the bottled up resentment that the majority of us carry around from not speakng our minds.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by kalisdad]

Hahahahahaha, women running faster than men in 20 years...bwahahahahaha....*wipes tears from eyes*

For how smart some scientists are, they sure can be stupid.

How do you do long term extrapolation without factoring in diminishing returns?

Maybe they should go run some stress limits on female pelvis versus male pelvis in straight line motions (running).

Way off topic, I know, just caught that line in the thread.

reply to post by kalisdad


I think your definition of bitch is badly considered. A bitch, at least to me is someone who takes advantage of others, who is always looking for the advantage, who is domineering and condescending. I would argue that a bitch is someone who demonstrates sociopathic tendencies. Someone who will use anyone to get where they want to be or in the event of a taxing situation (divorce) wants to make the other person suffer. A bitch will destroy the lives of men and women alike.

Basically a bitch is a horrible individual.

A women who voices her opinions, who stands up for her rights is not a bitch, she is simply an equal.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Remember that the ill-feelings you feel toward the opposite sex have likely been conditioned into you.

But I have no ill feelings toward the opposite sex! I ADORE men! I have said that several times in this thread. Generally, I think men are GREAT and I love them. I don't know why you would assume that I have ill feelings toward the gender.

Men and Women are very different, but when they work together they are much more complete.

In one week, I will celebrate my 18th anniversary married to the most wonderful man in the world! Together, we make one hell of a team! We love each other more than ever BECAUSE of the work we've done to understand each other and really accept each other for who we are. I completely agree with you.

Originally posted by kalisdad
I like a bitch.

now consider this... how do most guys describe a bitch?

Exactly. There are many words floating around here that can have even slightly different definitions and lead to misunderstanding and assumptions. Feminist is one such word.

I want my woman to stand up for herself, speak her mind, get in you face if you've wronged her...

classic definitions of what most people claim a bitch does.

I like sass, and confidence in a woman.

Then you should just LOVE me.

I actually agree with you. Women can be confident and not take any crap and some people call them a bitch. Some women are constantly complaining, thinking the world owes them a favor and some people call them a bitch. We have to have definitions of these words for us to clearly communicate.

Originally posted by Edrick

Who is going to mine all of the coal to run the power-plants that produce the electricity that you NEED to work your cushy 9-5 telecommunications job?

Again Edrick, why is it you seem to think that by using people in their most appropriate role should result in them gaining more rights?

If you want to argue such things then how about we simply instigate an IQ test for voting? That way the dumb males and dumb females won't be allowed to vote while those of us with a decent level of intellect will be able to consider our political future. Afterall we are more suited to making complex decisions right? We are intelectually superior!

This is a horrible thought and something that did happen in the past. It always caused horrible treatment of some group or other and once again you avoid ansering a simple question and it is revealing that you refuse to answer it.

If we use your logic that a person should be allowed to have more rights because they are drafted to defend their country then disabled people should have fewer rights. If women are not drafted because they are less physically able to perform in a war and disabled people are not drafted because they are less physically able to perform then both of these groups, according to your logic should forfeit their rights.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by kalisdad

 

I think your definition of bitch is badly considered. A bitch, at least to me is someone who takes advantage of others, who is always looking for the advantage, who is domineering and condescending. I would argue that a bitch is someone who demonstrates sociopathic tendencies. Someone who will use anyone to get where they want to be or in the event of a taxing situation (divorce) wants to make the other person suffer. A bitch will destroy the lives of men and women alike.

Basically a bitch is a horrible individual.

A women who voices her opinions, who stands up for her rights is not a bitch, she is simply an equal.

I can just as easily say that your difinition of a bitch is a bit extreme...

bitch (bĭch)

noun
1.A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2.Offensive
a. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
b. A lewd woman.
c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
3.Slang A complaint.
4.Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult.

most guys will refer to a woman as being a bitch when she is complaing about something...

again, if you don't tell me whats on your mind, even if it is bitching about it, how am I to know your true feelings??

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by kalisdad
I like a bitch.

now consider this... how do most guys describe a bitch?

Exactly. There are many words floating around here that can have even slightly different definitions and lead to misunderstanding and assumptions. Feminist is one such word.

I want my woman to stand up for herself, speak her mind, get in you face if you've wronged her...

classic definitions of what most people claim a bitch does.

I like sass, and confidence in a woman.

Then you should just LOVE me.

I actually agree with you. Women can be confident and not take any crap and some people call them a bitch. Some women are constantly complaining, thinking the world owes them a favor and some people call them a bitch. We have to have definitions of these words for us to clearly communicate.

there are multiple definitions of bitch...

that is also why I made the point of saying you can't be a complete bitch... it's a balancing act if you will.

nobody is going to take you seriously if you don't speak your mind
complaining about everything and trying to always get your way, is going overboard

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Again Edrick, why is it you seem to think that by using people in their most appropriate role should result in them gaining more rights?

I think it's a matter of convenience for Edrick. Let's talk about women's role for a minute.

If I understand it correctly, according to Edrick's logic (that women shouldn't vote because they don't serve equally in the military, for example) men should have NO rights in reproduction. They shouldn't be voting on abortion, contributing to how the children are raised or having any say in what happens in the public schools. They should perform their supportive role (as sperm donor and financial provider) and that's it, just as women perform their supporting role and homemaker, fort-holder and baby incubator, while the man goes off to war...

[edit on 6/16/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by kalisdad
I can just as easily say that your difinition of a bitch is a bit extreme...

bitch (bĭch)

noun
1.A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2.Offensive
a. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
b. A lewd woman.
c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
3.Slang A complaint.
4.Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult.

most guys will refer to a woman as being a bitch when she is complaing about something...

If a man considers a woman to be a bitch just because she complains about somethign then that man is an idiot. If a woman constantly complains about everything no matter how hard you try then maybe she can be called a bitch and i would apply the same label to a man as it is a modern use of the word.

1. The first definition of the word is not applicable to human social interactions.
2. A women who is overbearing is someone who considers herself to be above others, both men and women and is therefore a bitch. She is the kind of woman that other women hate.

A lewd woman? Men have been lewd for a long time and they are not denigrated. Either we can all be lewd or none of us can. Tbh i like a bit of lewdness

A man who is weak? What is a weak man? That is an important issue. Some consider a physically weak man to be comtemptible, others consider an agressive man to be the same. Personally i rise above such stupid labels. Just because a guy loses a fight doesn't make him a bitch and just because he won't fight doesn't make him a bitch.

I have walked away from a good number of fights, i was taught by my father and several martial arts instructors to swallow my ego and walk away from combat whenever possible. A wise man/woman will avoid conflict unless it is essential.

4 and 5. Utterly unimportant definitions of the word, at least i this context.

Originally posted by kalisdad
again, if you don't tell me whats on your mind, even if it is bitching about it, how am I to know your true feelings??

Absolutely and completely agree, people in a relationship should speak their mind. Some women agree with this sentiment, and they are women i have a great deal of respect for. However the passive aggressive nature is not exclusive to women, some men are horribly manipulative.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Again Edrick, why is it you seem to think that by using people in their most appropriate role should result in them gaining more rights?

I think it's a matter of convenience for Edrick. Let's talk about women's role for a minute.

If I understand it correctly, according to Edrick's logic (that women shouldn't vote because they don't serve equally in the military, for example) men should have NO rights in reproduction. They shouldn't be voting on abortion, contributing to how the children are raised or having any say in what happens in the public schools. They should perform their supportive role (as sperm donor and financial provider) and that's it, just as women perform their supporting role and homemaker, fort-holder and baby incubator, while the man goes off to war...

[edit on 6/16/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Wow that's a great point. Why should a man have any vote at all when it comes to abortion? I mean it's a womans body, both people contibute but it is the woman who ends up having to carry a child, just as men are drafted to war.

Although i would argue with you over the raising of the chldren, if the man raises the money he should have input but the rest of what you said is absolutely correct if we are using Edricks logic.

Brilliant point, slightly jelous i didn't think of it

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
3.Slang A complaint.


I have walked away from a good number of fights, i was taught by my father and several martial arts instructors to swallow my ego and walk away from combat whenever possible. A wise man/woman will avoid conflict unless it is essential.

I was a pacifist for most of my adult life, and I rarely spoke my mind on how I felt about things...

you know what?? that made me a bitch. people knew it and walked all over me. I was c. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.

now I speak my mind, knowing full well that what I have to say may hurt some feelings. and you know what, I've become a much stronger person for it.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Personally i think its a rubbish argument. I have never been in no military but i still have a mind to think and should have a say in things.

A male should have a right in abortions, more so.

If females want equal rights, one day that right of child barring will be taking away from them, science will do it one day. Then where will your gender be?

Still bitching about how to kill some male.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by ghaleon12

Kinda bugs me since she failed to mention of course how the education system has been transformed to work for women. Men's nature and school have never been so incongruent and its a wonder why things aren't going well. But instead of changing anything to make things more natural for guys, instead we stick with the feminized approach and just give affirmative action when they can't go against nature and conform to a system that wasn't designed with them in mind.

Please - - can you give me details on how the education system has been transformed to work for women?

And how they should change it to make it natural for guys?

These get into part of it.

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Not directed to anyone but It's a bit odd since I don't think some women understand when it really is blatantly obvious some of the problems. And if these women end up raising boys... seems they'll be a bit blind to their needs.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by ghaleon12]