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The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

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posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

So, yes, I agree people should get their esteem from within, definitely, but when the SELF has been so damaged that it cannot find out how to get to the point of self confidence, some sort of prodding and assistance is needed.


Does that make sense?


OH! Absolutely! And Personal Responsibility for feelings/actions/re-actions - - doesn't come easy.

Most of us come from "damaged baggage". Healing is a long process.

It is one reason I mention my age. I have gone through so many "incarnations" it makes me dizzy just thinking about them. But I seem to have been born with an independent streak and a sense of integrity - - - that kept me putting one foot in front of the other - - - with an urgency to keep growing as a person.



[edit on 13-6-2010 by Annee]




posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


It does make sense. And if it can work in a relationship that two people who are wounded can help one another find their confidence and self love, I would be the last person on Earth to tell them to stop it. Personally, I think it does sometimes work that way, but its far from a sure bet.

I do disagree that it is necessary to be "healed" by another, no matter what your upbringing, and I also do not think that it is the quickest route. I understand damage, and that we dont all get what we need from our families of origin. I did not have the best upbringing myself.

You have complete autonomy to decide the inward path. It is not dependent upon the compliance or presence of any other. You do not need to wait for someone to come along and give you the things you lack, how awful would life be if that were the case? Some would be forced, through no fault of their own, to live their whole lives without knowing self love and self respect. Nature or God has designed things much more kindly. You do NOT need to wait for some kind person to come along, you can begin to build on your own.

Because you have the ability to do the hard work on your own, (even though it can, perhaps, be a gift from another) you have absolutely no right to expect another to give it to you. It is unfair to expect, to demand, that someone else heal your wounds, bolster your esteem, make you feel loved. And that is the portion of Binder's post, and the OP, I am responding to. To suggest that someone SHOULD give you what you can get for yourself is false, and selfish. Other people dont exist to serve us, and our needs, thats a very childish (literally) way of viewing other people. That is the way a child views a parent.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

But what age are we talking about? I'd say - young women trying to attract a mate - are the primary group who "dress to kill". And they really aren't dressing for men - - but competing with other women. (this also applies to women competing in the job market)

Doesn't that sound like natural instinct in the animal kingdom?



Attracting a mate is part of it, and that doesn't stop at any particular age. But a lot of this obsession with clothes and appearance is conforming to a standard and competing with other women for social position, jobs, etc. Women (and men, too) have been manipulated into thinking certain artificial changes to one's appearance are beautiful or even necessary for a woman to spend money on to look half-way decent.

When a woman goes and "has her ____ done" not to attract a man but because it makes her feel girly or feminine, I would still say it's because she has been cleverly manipulated by mass marketing so that she has to do this to satisfy some type of lust about her own appearance.

A man doesn't nearly as often spend money on his body or appearance or do something "special" because it makes him feel manly. Still, he might be manipulated in the same manner by mass marketing to buy a certain brand of shaver or some other personal care item because it makes him feel masculine.

There are many subtle ways that feminism cuts men down without helping women. A lot of stereotypical masculine traits that women like to think are "romantic" are in reality unacceptable in modern society. I'm talking especially about the way dominance and aggression are somewhat romanticized in males, and men who do not have these traits are seen as wussies.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by justin23846

When a woman goes and "has her ____ done" not to attract a man but because it makes her feel girly or feminine, I would still say it's because she has been cleverly manipulated by mass marketing so that she has to do this to satisfy some type of lust about her own appearance.


I don't agree with that at all. Not that it doesn't happen - - - but we are natural beings who have natural instincts. Even animals in the wild preen. Its just a guess - but I bet if testing was done it would find women preen more around the time of ovulation.

The reverse also happens. There are women who embrace dowdiness and brag like its a "badge of honor" that they never wear make-up.


A man doesn't nearly as often spend money on his body or appearance or do something "special" because it makes him feel manly. Still, he might be manipulated in the same manner by mass marketing to buy a certain brand of shaver or some other personal care item because it makes him feel masculine.


I personally find it enlightening that men feel more comfortable now in taking care of their skin and such. Sales for men's products (mostly skin creams) has increased so rapidly over the last few years - - many women's lines are now coming out with a men's line.

I don't deny we have this stuff shoved in our faces at every turn. But I don't think its all about that. I think its more about an evolution - - such as BH's husband explained.


There are many subtle ways that feminism cuts men down without helping women. A lot of stereotypical masculine traits that women like to think are "romantic" are in reality unacceptable in modern society. I'm talking especially about the way dominance and aggression are somewhat romanticized in males, and men who do not have these traits are seen as wussies.


Who sees them as wussies? Men and/or women?

It is a natural instinct to look for a mate that will protect the family. This natural instinct sometimes is viewed in a skewed way. Bullies are never OK.

Again I go back to what BH's husband said about the evolution of humans.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 03:24 PM
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Good point.

I particularly hate it when I open a door for a woman and get insulted because of it or don't even receive a thank you.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Seanbomber
Good point.

I particularly hate it when I open a door for a woman and get insulted because of it or don't even receive a thank you.


Bad manners is always wrong - in my opinion. This is an uncalled for behavior on any woman's part.

To add: BUT - - then it is up to the woman not to let herself be put in the submissive role. You have to understand - not every man just considers it good manners. Men can be players in these situations.

[edit on 13-6-2010 by Annee]



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by Seanbomber
Good point.

I particularly hate it when I open a door for a woman and get insulted because of it or don't even receive a thank you.


Personally i treat males and females the same, they can open there own doors if they want. There are too many dodgy females as well as males out there for me to bother with.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by andy1033
 


I open or hold the door for anyone, male, female, elderly, teenaged, or child. If you happen to be the one at the door, and there is someone else approaching it, it just seems the right thing to do to extend that little bit of courtesy to your fellow human being.

I dont know why good manners and courtesy have anything at all to do with gender issues. Its just kindness and civility. If someone looks at you oddly, or grouches at you, its not about you. Its about them. Why let the small percentage of people who dont appreciate basic human kindness prevent you from extending it to the vast majority of people who do?



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by andy1033
 


I open or hold the door for anyone, male, female, elderly, teenaged, or child. If you happen to be the one at the door, and there is someone else approaching it, it just seems the right thing to do to extend that little bit of courtesy to your fellow human being.


Yes - so do I.

There just is no excuse for bad manners. And there is no excuse for "bullying" - - which is what I would categorize outward negative reactions to good manners.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I still feel that you not getting all that I'm trying to convey.
I'm absolutely not saying that it's necessary to have someone else heal us.
Before I met my husband, I was HAPPY in my life and so was he. We were happily single. But when we got together, the resultant dynamic became a loving forum in which to explore and address some of the deeper wounds of our childhoods. The dynamic brought them to the surface almost as if it had been part of a divine plan.


Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander Some would be forced, through no fault of their own, to live their whole lives without knowing self love and self respect.


Some people DO live their whole lives not knowing self-love and self-respect. We may not be designed to do that, but our design has flaws and the laboratory in which we operate is far from perfect. You can't tell me that a 2-3 year old girl being sexually abused is part of a plan that was designed by God or Nature.


You do NOT need to wait for some kind person to come along, you can begin to build on your own.


Absolutely true. But there are some wounds that only come to the surface when in a close relationship with another person.

And I'm not suggesting that we expect that someone else heal our wounds. I'm not saying (and neither is Bender, I don't believe) that we should go into a relationship, stop all self-work, and demand that our partner heal us. That couldn't be further from what we're saying and I don't know where you're getting that. Your last paragraph seems out of left field. No one here is suggesting any of that. I think you may be reading more into this than is there.

I don't know if you're in a relationship or what, but I believe part of being in a relationship is helping each other, not because it's being demanded or expected, but because you WANT to and it's part of nurturing the other person and the relationship.It's all part of helping one's self to grow in the end.

[edit on 6/13/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033
Personally i treat males and females the same,


I'm with Illusions on this one. I open the door for ANYONE who is approaching when I'm holding the door. Most people thank me. Some men simply REFUSE to walk through. It's in their programming and I understand that. If ANYONE opens the door for me, I thank them and smile. It's really just courtesy.

Women who take it as an insult have problems of their own and I wouldn't let that bother me for 2 seconds! It's about THEM, not about the person who opened the door.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



Leave the 70's and come join us in 2010.


Your local Selective Service Registration office should be quite easy to locate.


I will admit there was a time when the pendulum swung a bit too far in the opposite direction, but I personally dont know any "feminists" who have an interest in seizing all the power and leaving men to wear frilly aprons with their testicles removed.


That was several pages ago...

Why don't you join us in the Present.


If you do know those sorts of women, for Gods sake man, get out more. Women born after the civil rights movement (in general) do not in general have a militant stance and are not walking around with huge chips on their shoulders.


Yeah... because there ain't *NOTHING* influencing the behavior of women in general to be HARSH in their perspectives of men.

Am I going to have to start listing off examples, or do you understand when someone is talking about mass media propaganda?


If greater equality makes someone feel de-masculinized, I have to suspect their manhood was shaky to begin with, and that keeping women unnaturally non competitive was the only thing holding those testicles in place.


I suspect that if women were putting makeup on their face, they were never really that confident about their femininity in the first place.

Have you ever heard the phrase "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world?"

What could make women so scared of their ovaries being shaken loose, that they feel the need to control the WORLD through the manipulation of the opinions of the young?


Your confidence in your manhood should never be dependent upon the behavior of another. If it is, it isnt truly yours, is it?


Indeed...


Indeed...

www.associatedcontent.com...


Abby Rockefeller (b. 1943) — The eldest and most rebellious daughter, she was drawn to Marxism, was an ardent admirer of Fidel Castro and a late 60's/early 70's radical feminist who belonged to the organization Female Liberation, later forming a splinter group called Cell 16.[57] An environmentalist and ecologist, and an active supporter of the Women's Liberation movement, she also funded Ramparts, a left-wing magazine.

en.wikipedia.org...

-Edrick



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



The problem with your scenario is that it sounds as if you are advocating that women condescend to give a man respect in order to get them to behave in ways that would merit it.


So, you are saying that people should be respectful to you... without you being respectful to them?


Really?

-Edrick



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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I've seen something like this myself. It seems all the women I meet who self-describe as feminists, are actually Female Supremacists or Chauvinists. Man haters, usually because of some traumatising experience in their early life which meant they didn't mature correctly.

Most of my female friends though, are not man haters at all, they seem quite able to generally push for equality without any need for hate, and don't overdo it. I'm fine with that and agree with them.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 07:47 PM
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Who would want to live as a "traditional housewife"?

Do men?

Go read any parents chat board and the "Mr. Mom" guys have the same complaints as the women.

Its a sucky life.

Go Child Free and have a fun life! That's what I decided.

It's not about male or female - it's about being tied down by people. You run your own show and then no one runs you. Men should know this.

They do - they know what they can and can't do. And some things they can do are - leave completely - leave the woman to deal with the kids. Or stay - yet be 'checked out' watching sports on TV and not participating at all.

So females wised up and decided to do the same? So? You men ought to take it as a compliment - we are only following your example.

Why should you have money and freedom and screw young tarts on the side because you so dread "family life" and refuse to be tied down by it? Well we dread it too so lots of us decided to take a pass on it and live a fun and easy life - just like YOU.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by Edrick
 


I try to be respectful to everyone. Unless their actions towards me are so disrespectful that it would be ridiculous to continue.

Heck, I am even respectful to angry little rabbits.

And as for your longer post, yes, please do give examples. Because your rant in that one is so disjointed I am not sure what your point is. Especially towards the end. I am entirely unclear as to how your last quote had anything at all to do with anything I said.



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by Whiffer Nippets
So females wised up and decided to do the same? So? You men ought to take it as a compliment - we are only following your example.

Well today, many young men feel less and less incentive to settle down. This used to be one of the joys of finding one's true love in life: somebody that you want to commit to and spend your life with, whose company involves more than just dining and sex. As societal norms encourage more women to seek careers and suppress their traditional nurturing roles, the breakdown of the nuclear family is all but assured.


Why should you have money and freedom and screw young tarts on the side because you so dread "family life" and refuse to be tied down by it? Well we dread it too so lots of us decided to take a pass on it and live a fun and easy life - just like YOU.

The Feminist Movement has played a role in encouraging women to strive for things they naturally do not want or need. Having the freedom to not be tied down by family life and have sex with younger adults never used to be - as opposed to the nature of man since the beginning of time - things women strived for.

[edit on 13/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Your last paragraph seems out of left field. No one here is suggesting any of that. I think you may be reading more into this than is there.



Well, I am getting it from this;



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, yes, I agree people should get their esteem from within, definitely, but when the SELF has been so damaged that it cannot find out how to get to the point of self confidence, some sort of prodding and assistance is needed.


It sounded to me that you were saying that you can only find healing in another.

Which I do not think it is fair to expect from another. I feel we are each responsible for bringing our own best game to the table. If someone wants to be the "hero" to you, then that is one thing. But if you (not you personally, anyone) is going about blaming the opposite sex for the way they feel about the opposite sex, I feel that they are being childish, and selfish.

I do see what you are saying when you brought up that there may be some issues that never even arise until you are in an intimate relationship. That was a good point, and one I hadnt considered until you brought it up. Some people may very well be happy single but somehow just being in a relationship triggers all sorts of stuff they werent even aware of as a single.

That concept does change my view of it a little. That IS different than going in with the attitude that, "someone needs to do _______ in order for me to feel _______."



posted on Jun, 13 2010 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Whiffer Nippets
 





They do - they know what they can and can't do. And some things they can do are - leave completely - leave the woman to deal with the kids. Or stay - yet be 'checked out' watching sports on TV and not participating at all.


If they leave then the relationship didn't go as planed did it, and now a days there is a process to make them pay back a little is there not? Kids need there time to grow and mature without little mishaps, If a male type comes home and likes to watch some sports or work on a hobby, what is the big deal the kid isn't going to die or something. Everybody needs there time alone especially in a family setting. And it's good for the kid's to do there own thing, there is plenty of time for father son activities or things.




Why should you have money and freedom and screw young tarts on the side because you so dread "family life" and refuse to be tied down by it? Well we dread it too so lots of us decided to take a pass on it and live a fun and easy life - just like YOU.


I don't understand this, how can you say that men have all the money and like to not to have a family but like to screw tarts on the side and refuse to be tied down by marriage, relationships ect, since the major reason most men work is because of kids and family. Shouldn't the question be why are women attracted to men with money, that screw tarts on the side and refuse to be tied down? And last I checked there were 6.5 billion humans on this planet, by that very fact there was a lot of hanky panky going on both sides of the gene pool. Females screw around as much as males, in all probability more so then males.



So females wised up and decided to do the same? So? You men ought to take it as a compliment - we are only following your example.


This is irrelevant, females do what they want, same as males. Only there ways are different. I'm not sure what example you think your following but your own.




Go Child Free and have a fun life! That's what I decided.


In a better world that would be the case, if one lived for thousands of years and had no worries about children and living space and things. But unfortunately that is not the case. That choice is not everyones to make, even I like that choice, though for some the definition of fun would involve family and children. For me it would involve ice and endless forests and a lot less people around most days now a days, things change, who knows in a year I could have a whole different opinion. Both are real enough though, quite possible, its just a question of "why". It depends on what one's definition of fun is, or what ones ego says should be funner or less of a hassle. To summarize I don't think to go child free is a decision one can make, if there was a choice, and if you had that choice you would chose to not have that choice. Mother nature and the biology of being alive is not so easily pushed aside, I tried and it was not fun.



It's not about male or female - it's about being tied down by people. You run your own show and then no one runs you. Men should know this.


Your right it's not about male or female, and it is about being tied down by people. So if someone ties you down tell him he ties you down and leave, or better yet don't get attached in the first place to people that tie you down, or people you think will tie you down. An impossible task that is, since to know the difference of who would tie you down and who won't, one would have to subject themselves to choosing one choice. Which has a possibility that what one has chosen, has a possibility to being tied down to a chosen course freely chosen ie marital problems. And some one said already on this post "forgot who" most men are wage slaves so no they don't run there own show. And they have no clue what your talking about, when you say men run the show, because if they did they would be at a party on a yacht, or on a beach somewhere chilling instead of at the 9 to 5 or ATS.



Who would want to live as a "traditional housewife"?


I agree here this traditional housewife thing is outdated, there are women who like it and are good at it and I'm fine with that. There are some who think a females role is in the kitchen making the man a meal or sandwich. But I know for a fact that some females suck at cooking can't even make a sandwich, but thankfully because of feminism, we men no longer have to put up with bad cooking, that we have to pretend tastes good, or shabby house keeping
Let them become lawyers or business women or police officers or even join the army, and get shot at from time to time, if that floats there boat then whatever. But unfortunately who has the means to be a "traditional housewife" is pretty lucky and fortunate, there are way worser jobs out there
oh yes there are a lot of jobs that are way worser. The point being if it works well why fix it. Only when it does not work it needs fixing.



posted on Jun, 14 2010 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



I try to be respectful to everyone. Unless their actions towards me are so disrespectful that it would be ridiculous to continue.

Heck, I am even respectful to angry little rabbits.

And as for your longer post, yes, please do give examples. Because your rant in that one is so disjointed I am not sure what your point is. Especially towards the end. I am entirely unclear as to how your last quote had anything at all to do with anything I said.


Yes, of course!

Welcome back!



You are correct... it is possible that my communications are a bit... disjointed, as it were...

Allow me to clarify my points, and their requested relevancy to the topic, and posts in question:




tothetenthpower
It seems that today’s feminism is all about reducing the male gender to nothing. Continually pushing an agenda that seeks to demonize and put down the male perspective in favor of that of women.


Illusionsaregrander
Leave the 70's and come join us in 2010.


Edrick
Your local Selective Service Registration office should be quite easy to locate.


If we are talking about the "Old FashionedNess" of the "Places" of Men and Women....


Then we need to talk about defending the country VS people with Guns and Tanks.

Hence... Pick up a weapon, and Stand at post.




I will admit there was a time when the pendulum swung a bit too far in the opposite direction, but I personally dont know any "feminists" who have an interest in seizing all the power and leaving men to wear frilly aprons with their testicles removed.



That was several pages ago...

Why don't you join us in the Present.


Here is a Link:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Second Post... the First one after Mine.

(Annee)



If you do know those sorts of women, for Gods sake man, get out more. *Women born after the civil rights movement (in general) do not in general have a militant stance and are not walking around with huge chips on their shoulders.*



Yeah... because there ain't *NOTHING* influencing the behavior of women in general to be HARSH in their perspectives of men.

Am I going to have to start listing off examples, or do you understand when someone is talking about mass media propaganda?


1.) upload.wikimedia.org...




If greater equality makes someone feel de-masculinized, I have to *suspect their manhood was shaky to begin with, and that keeping women unnaturally non competitive was the only thing holding those testicles in place.*



I suspect that if women were putting makeup on their face, they were never really that confident about their femininity in the first place.

Have you ever heard the phrase "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world?"

What could make women so scared of their ovaries being shaken loose, that they feel the need to control the WORLD through the manipulation of the opinions of the young?


You were attacking Masculinity as a Grab for Power in the Argument.

I shoved it back in your face.


Smell Good?



Your confidence in your manhood should never be dependent upon the behavior of another. If it is, it isnt truly yours, is it?



Indeed...


Indeed...

www.associatedcontent.com...


I am citing an example of where women do the exact thing that you are speaking of.




Binder
A man's #1 need is respect, validation that he is fully capable of his role. That he is valuable, and appreciated. I don't care what "Vanity Fair", or "Redbook" says the key to unlocking a man's heart is to make him feel like he is the king of his castle, and an invaluable asset that cannot be done without.


Illusionsaregrander
The problem with your scenario *is that it sounds as if* you are advocating that women condescend to give a man respect in order to get them to behave in ways that would merit it.


Edrick
So, you are saying that people should be respectful to you... without you being respectful to them?


Really?



I am absolutley SURE, THAT *IS* what you hear....


Binder was talking about BEING NICE TO PEOPLE, so they will be nice to you in return.... and you misunderstood that to an extreme that is embarrasing.

-Edrick



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