The Feminist Movement—Ruining The Image Of Men

reply to post by Edrick


When responding to BH, may I suggest you single space your sentences as she's awfully good at reading between the lines. You leave way too much room for her to hang you with.

Just a suggestion.

reply to post by Oldnslo

When responding to BH, may I suggest you single space your sentences as she's awfully good at reading between the lines. You leave way too much room for her to hang you with.

Just a suggestion.

I am fine with my previous post.



And that is all I really have to say on the matter.


But thank you for the Constructive Criticism...


-Edrick

[edit on 12-6-2010 by Edrick]

Women have an image problem, too. They think they have to spend a lot of money on hair, clothes, make-up, jewelry, etc. to look good. This is promoted by popular media, TV, women's magazines, etc. They obsess about their weight, and develop various eating disorders more frequently than men.

Why do they dye/highlight their hair when it would have looked much better to leave it its natural color as soon as the roots begin to show? Same with those fake nails that look rather hideous when they grow halfway out. Make-up that runs all over when they sweat or cry. High heels that look uncomfortable and awkward. And they think they can't go barefoot without a hideously expensive pedicure.

It goes on and on.

I'm a man attracted to beautiful women, but there is remarkable little correlation between what I think is beautiful and what women spend money on to look beautiful.

Feminism has done nothing to improve the rather trashy image of female beauty that is enforced by popular culture on women, but it certainly has perpetuated an image of men as ugly, lustful, brutish, stupid, immature, criminally inclined, incompetent, and abusive.

Note that the focus for women is on looks, while the focus for men is on behavior. The truth is that the powers that be do not want anyone, male or female, to have a comfortable self-image. It's easier to oppress people who are not comfortable with who they are.

Originally posted by justin23846
Women have an image problem, too. They think they have to spend a lot of money on hair, clothes, make-up, jewelry, etc. to look good. This is promoted by popular media, TV, women's magazines, etc. They obsess about their weight, and develop various eating disorders more frequently than men.

I agree. I recently heard that you'll never hear a man complain that a woman doesn't wear enough make up. Women have gone crazy with this appearance thing! I don't wear make up, jewelry, don't spend on clothes and for most of my adult life, I didn't spend a penny on my hair, don't own any heels, . Just yesterday, I got my hair done for the first time in forever, got color (blond and bright red) and the whole bit. Not to look good for men, but because I wanted to do it.

I think women have become very confused about what beauty is... Sadly.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by justin23846
Women have an image problem, too. They think they have to spend a lot of money on hair, clothes, make-up, jewelry, etc. to look good. This is promoted by popular media, TV, women's magazines, etc. They obsess about their weight, and develop various eating disorders more frequently than men.

I agree. I recently heard that you'll never hear a man complain that a woman doesn't wear enough make up. Women have gone crazy with this appearance thing! I don't wear make up, jewelry, don't spend on clothes and for most of my adult life, I didn't spend a penny on my hair, don't own any heels, . Just yesterday, I got my hair done for the first time in forever, got color (blond and bright red) and the whole bit. Not to look good for men, but because I wanted to do it.

I think women have become very confused about what beauty is... Sadly.

That sounds a lot like me. Basically a Jeans & T-Shirt woman. I will do "girly stuff" because I feel like it - - not to impress anyone else. I have always been attracted to red-heads. I keep my hair a reddish shade - for ME. And I can't stand jewelry - I don't even wear a wedding ring - it bothers me to have things on my hands.

But what age are we talking about? I'd say - young women trying to attract a mate - are the primary group who "dress to kill". And they really aren't dressing for men - - but competing with other women. (this also applies to women competing in the job market)

Doesn't that sound like natural instinct in the animal kingdom?

Good post OP S&F. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The main split I would have with your opinion is that feminists are ruining our image. I am big on taking responsibility. I think men as a whole have ruined their own image, and the feminist movement (in it's negative form) has simply exploited the opportunity.
In my experience men have a certain inate flaw, and women have one too. We can be self aware of this, and work with it, or ignore it, and fight this pointless sex war.
Man's inate flaw is detached apathy. Example: Guy comes home from work sits on the couch drinking beer, playing xbox, while jr. sticks forks in the light sockets because mom's busy making dinner.
Women's inate flaw is derisive usurpation, or passive aggressiveness. I need X,Y, and Z, and I'll get it no matter what I have to do, or be to get it. I will also posit that this is usually a defense mechanism for most men's apathy.
The sexes are equal in importance, not equal in purpose, or in needs. We all have read a thousand books on love. We all need love right? Yes. It is a womans #1 desire in a relationship. To feel unconditionally loved, and accepted. A safe, secure environment to do her work of making life a beautiful thing. It is not, however a man's #1 need. The problem is that we are plugging traditional feminine style love into a hole that it doesn't quite fit, and a lot of men are left feeling empty, and unfulfilled, and therefore unmotivated to do any better. This starts a bad cycle. The guy doesn't help out, or show love. The woman feels unloved, and insecure because her guy is being well... a dud. So she rattles his cage. He feels more unappreciated, unwanted, and even less motivated to do what is needed, ad nauseum.
Men identify with their roles, their "job" in a different way. It is who we are, and when we feel like we are incapable, or made to feel invalid in a role it is exceedingly hard to continue in that role, and a lot of guys bow out. Referrence our astronomical divorce rates. A man's #1 need is respect, validation that he is fully capable of his role. That he is valuable, and appreciated. I don't care what "Vanity Fair", or "Redbook" says the key to unlocking a man's heart is to make him feel like he is the king of his castle, and an invaluable asset that cannot be done without.
The sex war needs a hero, be it male or female. We have to get off of the negative feedback cycle. Sometimes you have to fake it, until you make it. Even if he is still being a couch potato try showing him respect even when he doesn't deserve it, and then make your case. The response might just shock you. It might not work the 1st couple of times, but keep chipping at it. A good man won't be able to resist the bait.
Same goes for the guys. Even if you've had a bad day at work. Play with the kids, mow the lawn, do the dishes etc... when asked why you are suddenly being so helpful, just reply that you love her, and want to show it. The nagging won't stop overnight, but after a few weeks of consistent reinforcement that she is important, and loved enough to put constant effort, even if not perfectly guided, into her happiness she'll come around if she is a good woman.
Also learn to bridge the communication gap. Men, and women pair different mental asscoiations with things. There are things women say to each other, and it clears the air, and they work things out. The same thing said in the same way to a man comes across disrespectful, and peroquial, and guys will shut down every time. It has been clinically proven that a harsh nagging tone puts a man into fight, or flight mode. We are thinking with our reptilian brain, heart rate increases, and we cannot respond well emotionally in a cat fight with a woman. You CANNOT change it, don't try. Learn how to talk guy talk in the sense of approaching disagreements.
Same for guys we say things to the guys to clear the air, but it comes across to a woman as harsh, and uncaring. You have to learn to speak her language to understand what she REALLY means. At the core the messages are actually very similar it just gets lost in translation. You'll find out she does probably respect you a great deal, but people today don't know how to show it anymore, and it never gets expressed. He probably loves you far more than he shows, he just doesn't know how to put it in girl terms. Guys see, and hear the world through blue glasses, and blue hearing aids. Women see, and hear the world through pink glasses, and pink hearing aids. Neither perspective is wrong. We need to learn the other sex's language.
Chauvenism, and fasle machismo are just male equivalents of the feminist movement. Defense mechanisms. A truly centered confident man doesn't have to prove anything. He doesn't have to "control" because he can trust. He doesn't have to yell because his loved ones want to hear him speak because his words bring encouragement, love, and truth. His anger brings swift justice, not harm. He would die before allowing his family, and especially his woman to be harmed, or dishonored. That's a real man, and I don't know a good woman on the planet that isn't deeply attracted to a real man.
A good woman cares so much it hurts, and will lay everything on the line for her friends, and family. She isn't weak, and subserviant. She stands right in the middle of the battle with her man, even when she thinks he might be wrong. No one touches him without passing through her. She is the gatekeeper, the navigator, and the guide.
Both are more careful of their decisions now because they know the other will see it done even to their own harm. The other becomes more important than the me. Both needs are met because they each focus on the other. He knows he is vital, and important, his role is defined, and clear, and he is constantly reminded of how good he is at his job. He is respected. She knows he would lay down his life to meet her needs, and feels supremely secure, and unconditionally loved.
It isn't the easy way. It's hard, and laborious at first, and it's the only way that works. The gratification comes later, but it's very much worth it. How can you value your significant other if they never cost you anything? Love is selfless, few of us even know what it is anymore. That's where the battle lines are drawn in the war of the sexes. When both sides want to "win" over the other, no one wins, and our children lose the most.

Look, cant we all just...get along?
Lets remove the labels, take away the history and stick with the facts while looking into the future.
We should not allow society to step backwards. Equality should rule and law should be based on Justice and common sense (In a perfect world)
If we label a group, we can make generalizations about it, which can lead to inacurrate presumptions with anomilies poping up every now and again -and its not healthy for progression. Its not helping anyone get to the bottom of this issuie - Is feminism ruining the image of men?

It comes soley down to your own personal definition.
So in my opinion, Feminism has IMPROVED the generalized image of men.
And i know there will be people out there that dont agree, and thats okay, i have to respect your opinion.

Though because this thread is droning on, perhaps should start to answer the question?

Men used to be hunters; women used to be gatherers, taking care of the house and children while the men went away on dangerous journeys to hunt animals or fight neighbouring tribes. There's still hunting and fighting but it's not exclusive to males anymore and it's not nearly as dangerous as it used to be.

If there's anything ruining men's self image it's buying food in the grocery instead of hunting and killing animals, having to wear certain clothes to gain the tribe's acceptance, it's not being able to beat up other members of the tribe because of laws and regulations, it's driving in a comfortable car sheltered from the elements instead of enduring a journey on foot, pressing a button and killing a nation using a nuke instead of having to go there and look the enemy in the eye then going at it.

reply to post by justin23846

why does an industry (which is probably still mostly controlled by men) making all this toxic crap and peddling it to women.....
oh, they must be trying to wipe out the female population!!

I don't care if you are male or female, most of those things you listed are the toxic waste dump for the petro industry!!!

there are quite a few of us girls that aren't dying their hair, aren't slapping a bunch of toxic crap on our body....and there's plenty of men that are....
imagine that....
I guess looking really good now, is worth looking like tammy fay when she died later!

got my hair cut the first time in about five years.....had to , it had gotten long enough, it was laying in the screen when I printed, I was going home with mulitcolored tipped hair by the end of the day!!
the clothes I wear to work are mostly my kid's hand me downs....why wear anyting decent in a place where they are just gonna be a mutlicolored as my hair was....
and no, I don't do makeup, ,perfume, hair dyes, ect.....
too toxic for my blood!




[edit on 13-6-2010 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
It comes soley down to your own personal definition.
So in my opinion, Feminism has IMPROVED the generalized image of men.
And i know there will be people out there that dont agree, and thats okay, i have to respect your opinion.

Though because this thread is droning on, perhaps should start to answer the question?

I needed a big laugh, thank you. You have brightened up my day.

So far people have put forth reasonable arguments that Feminism has negatively impacted the image of men and their rights and freedoms. Care to bring forth some reasonable arguments to support your claim that Feminism has improved the generalised image of men?

reply to post by Binder


Every person in this thread and in the world should read your post! What an EXCELLENT summation! I read it to my husband and he agreed. Thank you so much for putting that into words.

We are in the stage of gratification for our hard work over the years and there's nothing like it! I strive to let him know how wonderful he is and how good a provider he is by telling him often how much I appreciate him and the hard work he does and by doing special things for him whenever I can to show my appreciation. And I DO appreciate him! He makes a point of telling me he loves me many times a day, sometimes taking time out of what he's doing just to approach me and show love. I NEVER nag. How disrespectful! It doesn't enter my mind. I have but to ask to get what I want or at least to discuss it with him. He never has to wonder if he's doing good enough as he is constantly shown. And he isn't apathetic because the times we spend together are some of the most rewarding for him as well as for me.

I swear, you nailed it! If you are married, your wife is a very fortunate woman!

This part of your post brought tears to my eyes because the truth of it struck me so clearly.

Originally posted by Binder
A good woman cares so much it hurts, and will lay everything on the line for her friends, and family. She isn't weak, and subserviant. She stands right in the middle of the battle with her man, even when she thinks he might be wrong. No one touches him without passing through her. She is the gatekeeper, the navigator, and the guide.

reply to post by Binder


You make some interesting points but i take issue with the idea that men have the inate flaw of apathy and women having the inate flaw of passive agressiveness. I have known some men who are deeply emotional, not the least bit apathetic and some women who were so cold they could hold a warm beer and it would be instantly chilled. Equally i have known some women who are anything but passive aggressive, who say what they mean and don't play games but have found some men who are very passive agressive and deeply manipulative.

The other problem with your post is the description of a real man, most importantly the point about allowing his woman to be dishonoured.

Take an example of a guy sitting in a pub with his wife/girlfriend/partner. I have had a girlfriend be insulted by some drunk idiot and she wanted me to hit him, simply because her ego was hurt. Why exactly should i get myself arrested because of her bruised ego?

Also the point that a real man would die for his family, well yeah that's fine i agree with that, i would die for friends or family or tbh anyone who was in trouble and needed help, but you make no mention of expecting women to do the same thing.

Other than these small points i think i agree with you, but then again maybe you agree with the points i've raised and i'm just being over sensitive

I do think Binder's points are a generalization of most men and most women. Of course, there are going to be exceptions to the rule.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

It seems that today’s feminism is all about reducing the male gender to nothing. Continually pushing an agenda that seeks to demonize and put down the male perspective in favor of that of women.

Leave the 70's and come join us in 2010. I will admit there was a time when the pendulum swung a bit too far in the opposite direction, but I personally dont know any "feminists" who have an interest in seizing all the power and leaving men to wear frilly aprons with their testicles removed.

If you do know those sorts of women, for Gods sake man, get out more. Women born after the civil rights movement (in general) do not in general have a militant stance and are not walking around with huge chips on their shoulders.

If greater equality makes someone feel de-masculinized, I have to suspect their manhood was shaky to begin with, and that keeping women unnaturally non competitive was the only thing holding those testicles in place. Your confidence in your manhood should never be dependent upon the behavior of another. If it is, it isnt truly yours, is it?

Originally posted by Binder
A man's #1 need is respect, validation that he is fully capable of his role. That he is valuable, and appreciated. I don't care what "Vanity Fair", or "Redbook" says the key to unlocking a man's heart is to make him feel like he is the king of his castle, and an invaluable asset that cannot be done without.

The best way to earn respect is not to ask for it. No matter how strong or whiney the request may be. The best way to earn respect is to be worthy of it. To totally respect yourself and to behave in ways that demonstrate that.

The problem with your scenario is that it sounds as if you are advocating that women condescend to give a man respect in order to get them to behave in ways that would merit it. It doesnt work that way. If a woman is actively doing things to bolster her mans confidence, so that he feels respected, she is going to lose respect for someone who needs the same sort of "fluffing" a mother gives her insecure child. It wont be natural, it will be hard to do, and the woman will resent it. A mans security is his own problem.

And the same goes for women.

If a woman is constantly demanding "you have to LOVE me" and being needy about it, the man may go through the motions, but he too will find it difficult to do, and eventually the natural feeling that did exist will fade.

People need to learn that other people dont exist to make you "feel" a certain way, whether that is feeling loved, or feeling respected. YOU as an individual need to find self love, and self respect, and lose the neediness.

Neediness for whatever reason, brings you the opposite of that which you desire from other people.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Your confidence in your manhood should never be dependent upon the behavior of another. If it is, it isn't truly yours, is it?

Love this!

I have a 16 year old grandson. He is awesome. He was raised with manners & taught to cook & clean & do his own laundry. He also rides dirt bikes and plays guitar. I tell him "you define yourself - you are not defined by a woman". The teenage years can be tough. He has a friend that doesn't feel like he is worth anything unless he has a girlfriend.

As a human I believe everyone should find and explore what they love to do and be the best they can be for them self.

I met my hubby when he was 23 and I was 44. He was raised by his Morman grandparents. He was responsibly mature but socially immature. The hardest thing for me was to get him to be a strong independent individual. After 21 years of marriage we are now both strong individuals - who greatly appreciate each other with great respect and love. Not a superficial role playing love - - but a strong deep committed and supportive love. And appreciation that each of us is happy being our individual self.

Its not about gender at all. But about supporting each other as an independent individual.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
People need to learn that other people dont exist to make you "feel" a certain way, whether that is feeling loved, or feeling respected. YOU as an individual need to find self love, and self respect, and lose the neediness.

YES! Feeling is an internal emotion - not external.

That was a hard one for me to learn. But once you do learn - you know where the responsibility for how you feel belongs.

Negative response to some one else's behavior toward you - - is really not their responsibility - but your own.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Ive made some stunning arguments myself, why not go back a few pages and have a read. And it was my opinion, you dont agree with it fine, dont mock me though. Tis childish.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I understand what you're saying about Binder's post and I agree to an extent. But the fact is, we are not all raised in healthy households where we grow up with healthy self esteem into people who don't "need" to have others appreciate us to feel worthy, but rely totally on ourselves.

Unfortunately, our parents, more times than not, leave us with SO much negative baggage that we spend a lifetime trying to cure ourselves of the wounds they left behind. Especially those of us born before the 60s when women's roles were MUCH different than they are now.

My husband and I both have LOTS of scars, mine due to a father who wanted only male children and took "spare the rod and spoil the child" as his own special mission in life and exercised it too often and too violently paired with a mother who wouldn't speak out against him or anything for that matter. My father taught me what a man is and my mother taught me what a woman is... Plus, I was sexually molested as a YOUNG girl by several family members and later raped by a trusted friend. I won't reveal my husband's scars. But suffice it to say that we both went into this marriage, even in our 30s, screwed up, and not knowing WHAT to do to resolve the issues that grew out of our being together.

We did our best for about 15 years CONSTANTLY working on it until we figured out what all this button-pushing and insecurity was about. But, incredibly and miraculously, we made it through to the promised land of our current state of marital bliss.

Sometimes, people have to "fake it till you make it" under these circumstances. Giving my husband the appreciation that his "inner child" was longing for was the best way for US to get to where we are. We no longer need to "fake it". because it comes naturally. I don't tell him I appreciate him to get what I want. I tell him that because his mother never did and he DESERVES it and most importantly I feel compelled to let him know how very important he is to me, because I respect and honor him SO much.

So, yes, I agree people should get their esteem from within, definitely, but when the SELF has been so damaged that it cannot find out how to get to the point of self confidence, some sort of prodding and assistance is needed.

Does that make sense?