Souls?

This is a topic I've thought about sometimes in the past few months:

Does the soul actually exist as an entity? Is there really such thing as a human soul? Just because our brains and the things we see help form our personality, does that actually translate to us having or soul? Or does the soul actually exist as some sort of entity?

Is there any proof of the soul actually existing? Just because we are 'alive' is that proof enough of a soul? When we feel 'love' of 'hate' is that an emotion from our souls or the chemicals released into our brains and bloodstream to make us feel pleasure or anger?

Is the soul scientific, spiritual or both?

Let the discussion begin........

[edit on 10-6-2004 by HobNob]

there is of course the idea of 21 Grams....that at the precise moment of death the body loses 21 grams of weight (if anyone can back this up please do as I forget where I heard it and no it wasn't from the movie)
Is it scientific? do you mean physical or is it measurable under our current scientific knowledge?
I don't think simply being alive has any bearing on whether or not we have a soul, being alive simply means we eat, breathe sleep etc. Does a plant have a soul or is it simply alive.
We are self aware, does this mean we have a soul? I don't know.
We are all individuals is what makes each of us different from the other proof that we have a soul?
Good topic this one might get pretty big

It depends on your definition of the word soul. Is soul, consciousness or life energy or spirit or something connected through another dimension? Since we have no proof that a 'soul thing' exists you really can not define it as there is no proof. Problems galore.

I've heard the 21 gram story as well... I believe it was a french scientist who did the experiments in the early 20th century.

The experiments are real, but can easily be explained by evoporation and sweating source:

Fellow Massachusetts doctor Augustus P. Clarke took MacDougall to task for having failed to take into account the sudden rise in body temperature at death when the blood stops being air-cooled via its circulation through the lungs. Clarke posited that the sweating and moisture evaporation caused by this rise in body temperature would account both for the drop in the men's weight and the dogs' failure to register one. (Dogs cool themselves by panting, not sweating.)

MacDougall's results were flawed because the methodology used to harvest them was suspect, the sample size far too small, and the ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams. His postulations on this topic are a curiousity, but nothing more.

21 grams is a heck of a lot of sweat!

I beleive the soul is the light body which we store all our experinces/knowledge and wisdom. The body which travels other dimensions yet retains all that we know. When we leave this class of 3D called Earth the soul ditches the body and goes to another place.

I know I have a soul/spirit/life force in me other then my brain and flesh. Its the voice within yourself that your brain tries to ignore because the ego thinks it knows best. 'The light within ones self' as a wise man once wrote.

I got soul baby. uh huh!

[edit on 10-6-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by Jonna
It depends on your definition of the word soul. Is soul, consciousness or life energy or spirit or something connected through another dimension? Since we have no proof that a 'soul thing' exists you really can not define it as there is no proof. Problems galore.

I can see your point. Is it possible that the very human concept that a soul even exists suggests the possibility of that it may. Then again, I guess that's like saying that just because we think that God/a god exists, it automatically does. In a way, I think this all boils down to the existence of spirituality as a whole. Many of us may not have or may never experience something that is considered truly 'spiritual' (perhaps until death?) but again I suspect it depends on definition.





[edit on 10-6-2004 by HobNob]

A Scientist Weights the Soul
06-Jul-2003

Dr. Duncan MacDougall believed that if there's a soul that exists separately from our brains and bodies, then it has to take up physical space and have weight, and this can be measured. The way to find out is to weigh a person shortly before and after death. According science, space-occupying material can be classified into solids, liquids or gases, which are all affected by gravity. MacDougall thought the soul may belong to a new category�one which we're not aware of.
He began testing his theory in 1907. He said, "My first subject was a man dying of tuberculosis�The patient was under observation for three hours and forty minutes before death, lying on a bed arranged on a light framework built upon very delicately balanced platform beam scales.

"The patient's comfort was looked after in every way, although he was practically moribund when placed upon the bed. He lost weight slowly at the rate of one ounce per hour due to evaporation of moisture in respiration and evaporation of sweat.

"�At the end of three hours and forty minutes he expired and suddenly coincident with death the beam end dropped with an audible stroke hitting against the lower limiting bar and remaining there with no rebound. The loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce.

"This loss of weight could not be due to evaporation of respiratory moisture and sweat, because that had already been determined to go on, in his case, at the rate of one sixtieth of an ounce per minute, whereas this loss was sudden and large, three-fourths of an ounce in a few seconds.

"�My second patient was a man moribund from tuberculosis. He was on the bed about four hours and fifteen minutes under observation before death�The weight lost was found to be half an ounce�My third case, a man dying of tuberculosis, showed a weight of half an ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later." In his next case, "A man dying of tuberculosis showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for."

When he did the same experiments with dying dogs, he found no weight loss. MacDougall said, "The net result of the experiments conducted on human beings, is that a loss of substance occurs at death not accounted for by known channels of loss. Is it the soul substance? It would seem to me to be so�We have experimental demonstration that a substance capable of being weighed does leave the human body at death."


I hope that answers your question

Originally posted by echosounder
there is of course the idea of 21 Grams....that at the precise moment of death the body loses 21 grams of weight (if anyone can back this up please do as I forget where I heard it and no it wasn't from the movie)
Is it scientific? do you mean physical or is it measurable under our current scientific knowledge?
I don't think simply being alive has any bearing on whether or not we have a soul, being alive simply means we eat, breathe sleep etc. Does a plant have a soul or is it simply alive.
We are self aware, does this mean we have a soul? I don't know.
We are all individuals is what makes each of us different from the other proof that we have a soul?
Good topic this one might get pretty big

I have heard about the 21 grams theory, and apparently the results and the actual test methods used were a bit dubious and sometimes even wayward.

In terms of plants having a soul, I don't know. I can kind of see something in your idea of self awareness. As human beings, our self awareness means we want to portray ourselves through the clothes we wear, the words we write, the music we listen to etc. All these decisions are based on our ability to make intelligent decisions based on how we feel. Is this a reflection of the soul? Thus, if self-awareness suggests the existence of a soul, do other animals have 'souls?' Do they even have a concept of 'soul'?

I seem to have sidetracked, so back to the plants. I know little about plant biology, just the basics, so bear with me. Are plants 'unintelligent' as such? Somehow I very much doubt that they are self-aware, though I'd like someone to prove me wrong. If they are not self-aware, then is the soul the basis of life? Does a soul have to exist in order for life to do so as well? Do they really go hand in hand?

Here is some information about Dr. Duncan Macdougall's 1907 '21 Grams' experiments, and their flawed methodology and results

Soul Man

my view on the soul

i KNOW FOR A FACT in myself that we all have a soul, and that the soul lives on. bu that is something i have felt and experianced for myself, so its easy for me to say that. the joy i feel knowing after death we live on is great (im not religious at all btw) your soul for me as i said in another thread is the all knowing, wise part of us all. the part sadly most of us cant utilize 100% as our evil brain stops us from doing go.
when we pass on our soul lives on. after that i have no idea where it goes, what it does. in my experiance the soul is a remorseful soul after death. i believe after death we stand, judged by ourselfs. this is the feeling i get when i communicate with spirit energy.

maybe one day i will do a short thread for you all of some of my experiences

I heard that when the body dies that all excrements including feces , urine and sweat all leave the body. I know a few EMTs that have confirmed this. This possibly could account for the 21 grams , but then there is the question , " Does everyone have 21 grams of poop, pee and sweat?" Hard to say , haven't seen the movie.

As for the soul, I have read a lot about the soul being made up of Ether which is virtually weightless. Check it out.


Note the link and take it for what it's worth.

www.ghostweb.com...



Nutzo


Edited for shpeelinhg

[edit on 10-6-2004 by nutzobalzo]

Originally posted by HobNob
Here is some information about Dr. Duncan Macdougall's 1907 '21 Grams' experiments, and their flawed methodology and results

Soul Man

I have to say great web site. I was on it for like 20 minutes reading about the college myths. Very funny, I wish I knew about this earlier. I could've used the tires blowing as an excuse to miss my midterm.

21 grams of water is about 0,012024 l at 293K. A normal drinking glass is ten times as much. I think this can easily be lost through evaporation and sweating.

hello 7th_Chakra and shauny

i am very happy to see some people here, who dont relly on their brain to give them all of the answers

people, to find out if you have a soul you will have to look inside, not on the internet

...bwaaah you shouldve known that by now

Originally posted by shauny
my view on the soul

i KNOW FOR A FACT in myself that we all have a soul, and that the soul lives on. bu that is something i have felt and experianced for myself, so its easy for me to say that. the joy i feel knowing after death we live on is great (im not religious at all btw) your soul for me as i said in another thread is the all knowing, wise part of us all. the part sadly most of us cant utilize 100% as our evil brain stops us from doing go.
when we pass on our soul lives on. after that i have no idea where it goes, what it does. in my experiance the soul is a remorseful soul after death. i believe after death we stand, judged by ourselfs. this is the feeling i get when i communicate with spirit energy.

maybe one day i will do a short thread for you all of some of my experiences

That seems really interesting. Is there any way you could explain in a little more detail how you are sure of the existence of a soul? What exactly did you experience?

I need my soul to connect with my higher self.

This guy has soul:



As for an actual soul I doubt it's existence. I think it's the simple answer for people not being able to comprehend that the full range of emotions, that feel so strong to them throughout their lives, can just be explained by chemical reactions in the brain.

However, just because it's just a chemical reaction doesn't mean that love or hate e.t.c. is any less real, you don't need a soul for that. It doesn't make these emotions any less special. Why? Because they are special to you, and that's all that really matters regardless of what causes them.

Actually I'd entertain the idea that maybe every living cell in your body has it's own instincts for what the overall being needs and wants, and that they work together somehow to send this info to the brain, or vice versa. Actually, I'm not sure where I'm going with that one, skip it...

[Edited for typos]

[edit on 11-6-2004 by John Nada]

A bit off topic:

Ah, James Brown. What a legend, can't wait to see him at Glastonbury soon!