Egyptian Granite

"It seems that the drill marks on the sides of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber imply that the soft copper Egyptian drills apparently advanced about 500 times faster than possible with the toughest modern drills! There is something amiss here." - Science Frontiers

In most of their structures the ancient Egyptians used limestone, which they worked with great expertise. But what remains an unsolved mystery is how they worked the much harder Granite with the same expertise. A few samples only, taken by Chris Dunn:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d7ad7dfc9d0d.jpg[/atsimg]
Granite, Valley Temple

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8b40d7b1f117.jpg[/atsimg]
Basalt, East of Great Pyramids

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57ebe61e3d28.jpg[/atsimg]
Granite, Giza Plateau

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The following worked piece of Granite, according to the inscriptions, depicts a "door to other Dimensions":

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/da4234144ad6.jpg[/atsimg]

______________________________________________________

Last but not least, we have the technology to drill granite since only one century. Up to now there have been no satisfactory explanations on how the Egyptians did it:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d6348b83f623.jpg[/atsimg]

How did they do it?

[edit on 8-6-2010 by Skyfloating]

Perhaps a hard wood pole, and sand, the pole rotated as quickly as possible?
Or a tube of copper used with sand to grind out a shaft? the circular cut from the copper tube creates a 'column' which can then be broken and lifted out, saw this some time ago on a TV program, an experimental archaeologist was showing how it could be done.
I bet some Egyptian worked out what a saw could do.

I listened to Chriss Dunns lectures
a couple of them anyway
he makes a pretty solid case

you can't get thousandth of an inch accuracy
wth hundredth of an inch tools

copper is soft I've never seen a stone cutter using it
except do his plumbing or wire his house

and thats not even talking about the math.

Not one Egyptologist has been able to demonstrate the workmanship with the tools the ancient Egyptians were supposed to be using.

Is there a reliable source that can demonstrate this allegedly impossible accuracy? Its a large claim to make, without offering any methodology or measurements. It is also worth noting there are many stones harder than granite, quartzite for example. Using a mineral or stone with a hardness greater than the stone you are working, abrasive grit+water, time, and slaves, I'm sure you can carve all sorts of awe inspiring monuments....

Another fine foray into megalithic mysteries.

Thanks Skyfloating.

I don't have the answers, and I wish I did. I wish mankind did.

Originally posted by RemainSkeptical
Is there a reliable source that can demonstrate this allegedly impossible accuracy? Its a large claim to make, without offering any methodology or measurements. It is also worth noting there are many stones harder than granite, quartzite for example. Using a mineral or stone with a hardness greater than the stone you are working, abrasive grit+water, time, and slaves, I'm sure you can carve all sorts of awe inspiring monuments....

quartzite is not much stronger and is just quartz grains (that can't really be destroyed by weathering) that have been metamorphized.

Virtually no examples of this around the mid-east, bar perhaps the odd meteorite impact, which would mostly form a glass type rock anyway.

Quartzite on quartz would GENERALLY not work as the crytal stucture of quartz would be far stonger compositionally than the integrity of lots of individual grains of quartz fused together. A bit like a knife of steel cutting through mini steel balls, loosly held together.

[edit on 8/6/10 by Caveat Lector]

Originally posted by Caveat Lector

Originally posted by RemainSkeptical
Is there a reliable source that can demonstrate this allegedly impossible accuracy? Its a large claim to make, without offering any methodology or measurements. It is also worth noting there are many stones harder than granite, quartzite for example. Using a mineral or stone with a hardness greater than the stone you are working, abrasive grit+water, time, and slaves, I'm sure you can carve all sorts of awe inspiring monuments....

quartzite is not much stronger and is just quartz grains (that can't really be destroyed by weathering) that have been metamorphized.

Virtually no examples of this around the mid-east, bar perhaps the odd meteorite impact, which would mostly form a glass type rock anyway.

Quartzite on quartz would GENERALLY not work as the crytal stucture of quartz would be far stonger compositionally than the integrity of lots of individual grains of quartz fused together. A bit like a knife of steel cutting through mini steel balls, loosly held together.

[edit on 8/6/10 by Caveat Lector]

Sorry but this is wholly incorrect. Quartzite is every bit as common in the middle east as the Intrusive rocks in the original pictures. What do you think happened when the intrusive igneous rocks met the sandstone which is EXTREMELY COMMON in the middle east. I'm willing to bet you the quartzite was quarried in the vicinity of the granite and basalt itself. There are also countless quartzite statues and monuments in egyptian history, as testament to its prevalence. It wouldn't be very efficient, but I think my statement holds.

[edit on 8-6-2010 by RemainSkeptical]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Not one Egyptologist has been able to demonstrate the workmanship with the tools the ancient Egyptians were supposed to be using.

More than likely because there is not one Egyptologist that is a stonecutter with the combined knowledge of at least a 1000 years of masters passing down their skills to apprentices, which then become the masters.

Its really the same thing if you take US corn farmer from Texas or something and tell him to build the next Intel CPU and he's got 1 week to do it.

[edit on 8-6-2010 by merka]

I do not think it is such a mystery.

Granite is hard yes, but no way as hard as Basalt.

It is more than likely Diamonds were used as the reinforecement to the drill head. Slow turning with lubrication will achieve the result.

Granite is quite predictable

The hardness of granite is 6 on the Moh's Scale of Hardness

Quartz is a 7 on the Moh's scale so Quartz chips set on the end of copper rods and spun with something like a bow drill would drill hole in granite.

Topaz. 8

Sapphire. Ruby Corundum 9

For rough work river stones can be use as hammers to chip granite to shape and final smoothing and polishing done with Quartz Topaz Sapphire. Ruby Corundum sand pounded into copper plates and used like sand paper.
www.reshafim.org.il...

You have to remember labor was cheap back then.
It was not a problem to take a week ti drill a 12 inch hole.

These mysteries are only unknown to someone that never did it for a living.

Hi skyfloating, interesting subject, thanks posting this.
These two examples fit in a way also here.
Interesting to see is the explanation how they must have done it and what they did used for that by the Egyptologists.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6c2d948b4f63.jpg[/atsimg]

In 1996, this tube-drilled piece of granite was on display in the Cairo Museum without any associated identifying information.

The photo (click to see full size) clearly shows spiral grooves on the visible portions.

The grooves can be seen to be of regular depth and spacing, and occur in all of the holes in this piece. As the holes overlap, were these grooves caused by abrasive slurry, they would not be expected to be so consistent.

These grooves seem to support Petrie's conclusion of "jewelled points" set into bronze tube drills.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/66e2128f6dd9.jpg[/atsimg]

The ancient builders used a tube drill to hollow out the sarcophagus in the King's chamber of the Great Pyramid - they drilled off course and left a tube drill mark on the top inside of the box on the east side. They did some extra polishing to fix it up a bit but if you go to the King's chamber you can still see it if you look carefully.

Looking at the radius of the cut in the sarcophagus (less than 2") it is obvious that in this one piece alone the masons made thousands of holes - each several inches deep. The craftsmen who did this had mastery of the principles of drilling round hollow holes in any material, soft or hard: wood, stone, or metal, and could have drilled virtually any naturally occuring material on this planet.

Edit post because I forgot to post the source here.

www.theglobaleducationproject.org...

[edit on 8/6/10 by spacevisitor]

Mr. Dunn will go down in history as one of the best of our time.

I can't wait until this stuff is mainstream...

Here are some other “stonework wonders” found in Egypt.

This remark here is very interesting indeed in my opinion.

The Step Pyramid is believed to be the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt - the first one built.

It seems to be the only place where these kind of stone housewares were found in quantity, although Petrie found some fragments of similar bowls at Giza.

Is it not remarkable that most if not all of those marvelous works of craftsmanship where found in the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt - the first one built.

So that seems to suggest then that their level of stonework was already at an unbelievable height before even the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt was built.

Here is another interesting remark.

Many of them have inscribed (scratched) onto them the symbols of the earliest kings of Egypt - the pre-dynastic era monarchs - from before the pharaohs. Judging by the primitive skill of the inscriptions, it seems unlikely that those signatures were made by the same craftsmen who fashioned the bowls in the first place.

Quite interesting is it not?

Here are some of these “stonework wonders”.

In the Cairo museum and in other museums around the world there are examples of stone ware that were found in and around the step pyramid at Saqqarra. Petrie also found pieces of similar stoneware at Giza. There are several special things about these bowls, vases and plates.
They show the unmistakable tool marks of a lathe manufactured item. This can easily be seen in the center of the open bowls or plates where the angle of the cut changes rapidly - leaving a clean, narrow and perfectly circular line made by the tip of the cutting tool.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b60facdb62f8.jpg[/atsimg]

Photo taken at Cairo museum, 1996.

These bowls and stone dishes/platters are some of the finest ever found, and they are from the earliest period of ancient Egyptian civilization. They are made from a variety of materials - from soft, such as alabaster, all the way up the hardness scale to very hard, such as granite.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d7eeecd9c102.jpg[/atsimg]

Working with soft stone such as alabaster is relatively simple, compared to granite. Alabaster can be worked with primitive tools and abrasives. The elegant workings in granite are a different matter and indicate not only a consummate level of skill, but a different and perhaps more advanced technology.

Here is a quote from Petrie:
"...the lathe appears to have been as familiar an instrument in the fourth dynasty, as it is in the modern workshops."

Stoneware such as this has not been found from any later era in Egyptian history - it seems that the skills necessary were lost.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/eb8b18ea57a0.jpg[/atsimg]

Some delicate vases are made of very brittle stone such as schist (like a flint) and yet are finished, turned and polished, to a flawless paper thin edge - an extraordinary feat of craftsmanship.

At least one piece is so flawlessly turned that the entire bowl (about 9" in diameter, fully hollowed out including an undercut of the 3in opening in the top) balances perfectly (the top rests horizontally when the bowl is placed on a glass shelf) on a round tipped bottom no bigger than the size and shape of the tip of a hen's egg !

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/75116fff254c.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10de968142a3.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/13e096f841a1.jpg[/atsimg]

This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error! (With a base area so tiny - less than .15 " sq - any asymmetry in a material as dense as granite would produce a lean in the balance of the finished piece.)
This kind of skill will raise the eyebrows of any machinist. To produce such a piece in clay would be very impressive. In granite it is incredible.

Other pieces turned out of granite, porphory or basalt are fully hollowed with narrow undercut flared openings, and some even have long necks. Since we have yet to reproduce such pieces it is safe to say that the techniques or machinery they employed to produce these bowls has yet to be replicated.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d6215abc37f8.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is a large (24" or more in diameter) piece turned out of schist (shown here glued back together in the Cairo Museum.) It is like a large plate with a central hub (about 2-3 " diameter) with an outside rim that in three areas spaced evenly around the perimeter is flared toward the central hub. It is a truly amazing feat of stone work.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2b82eeabf984.jpg[/atsimg]

There were not just a few of these. Apparently there were thousands found in and around the Step pyramid.

The Step Pyramid is believed to be the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt - the first one built. It seems to be the only place where these kind of stone housewares were found in quantity, although Petrie found some fragments of similar bowls at Giza.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f15c53351ace.jpg[/atsimg]

Many of them have inscribed (scratched) onto them the symbols of the earliest kings of Egypt - the pre-dynastic era monarchs - from before the pharaohs. Judging by the primitive skill of the inscriptions, it seems unlikely that those signatures were made by the same craftsmen who fashioned the bowls in the first place. Perhaps they were added later by those who had somehow acquired them.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8df62d7d2158.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3e282bdcde17.jpg[/atsimg]

Diorite bowl inscribed with the name of Hotep the first king of the Second dynasty - Saqqara

So who made these objects? and how? and where? and when? and what became of them, that their housewares were buried in the oldest of Egyptian pyramids?

www.theglobaleducationproject.org...



[edit on 8/6/10 by spacevisitor]

The work is either very exact, or has visible planar flaws one would be able to see in proper light. In the case of the former, I have to wonder what exactly was used to polish to final form? In other words, how closely were they able to machine to the final true planes?

Nice subject here, thanks.

Explanation: Uhm... water + temperature variation! Its amazing what water EXPANDING as ice can do over a long period of time! Doesn't the Sahara desert [pretty much where the EGYPTIAN pyramids are! ]
have a massive temperature range which can drop to below 0 degrees C?

Yep... Sahara Desert (ecoregion) [wiki]

Climate
The Sahara desert generally features an arid climate. The Sahara desert is one of the hottest regions of the world, with a mean temperature over 30 °C (86 °F). Variations may also be huge, from over 50 °C (120 °F) during the day during the summer, to temperatures below zero at night in winter. Daily variations are also very important. The Sahara also receives very little rain (The Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone moves up from the south, but stops are observed and full-blown wind and sand storms occur as soon as early spring. Local inhabitants protect themselves from heat, cold and mostly wind and sand by covering their heads (see the cheche worn by Tuareg).

Water/fluids can also be used to get a very accurate level ect.

And of course each type of rock is hard enough to carve itself!

Mohs Hardness Scale [rocksforkids.com]

Notes for testing:

Each mineral can scratch the minerals with lower hardness ratings.
Each mineral can scratch itself. [Note Bold is my edit for emphasis]
Don’t press hard, normal scratching should do.
Weathered surfaces are softer.
Corners or edges of crystals are softer.
Small pieces seem softer than large pieces.
When you scratch, take a close look at the scratch line -
which often looks white.
Is it really a scratch or is it a powder line made from the tool you used
because it was softer than the item you were trying to scratch?

Personal Disclosure: Everybody seems to be overlooking the 4 most important, powerfull, dynamic and accurate tools of all...

Naked Eye (small objects and maps) [wiki]

The Human Brain [wiki]

Fine motor skill (hand dexterity) [wiki]

Time [wiki]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Last but not least, we have the technology to drill granite since only one century. Up to now there have been no satisfactory explanations on how the Egyptians did it:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d6348b83f623.jpg[/atsimg]

How did they do it?

Regarding your question; How did they do it? I found this.

On this quite interesting site [with interesting pictures] it is explained how Egyptologists assume that the ancient Egyptians where able to drill in stone such as granite and what kind of tools they could have used for that.

Here is a describing of an experiment in drilling into a granite block from Aswan.

Stocks (2001) constructed a partial rotary-motion coring drill powered by a wooden bow (Fig. 20).
The coring barrel was made of copper and was 8 cm in diameter, 1 mm in thickness, and was partially forced fitted to the wooden drill-shaft.
A capstone bearing was carved out of a hard sandstone with flint chisels and punches, so that the rounded cone end of the drill-shaft could rotate with reduced friction when aided by grease, as well it acted as a weight. The wooden bow was made from a curved tree branch that applied enough tension to the bow rope to prevent slippage of the wooden drill-shaft during the coring experiment.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ca3645efab54.jpg[/atsimg]

A granite block from Aswan was used to test the coring drill. Initially, the surface of the granite was flattened by pounding with a diabase (dolerite) hammer.
An outline equal to the diameter of the cutting edge of the coring bit was marked on the surface of the rock with red paint, and this outline was used to guide the carving of a shallow groove into the surface of the granite with a flint chisel and stone hammer.
This was done to prevent the coring bit from slipping from the area being cut, during the initial stage of coring.
This slippage was no longer a problem when the depth of the cut exceeded 5 mm. Stocks (1993, p.601) describes a travertine vessel with a similar type groove on the top surface located in the collections of The Petrie Museum (Fig. 21).

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b233dfe11da0.jpg[/atsimg]

The drilling was conducted by a team of three workman using dry sand as an abrasive.
Two workmen operated the bow at either end, and the third held the capstone.
As the bow was drawn back and forth, the motion produced 120 revolutions of the coring bit per minute (60 clockwise and 60 anticlockwise).
A force of about 1 kg/cm2 on the end of the coring bit was needed to initiate cutting of the granite by abrasion by quartz sand.
This was easily obtained by the workman holding the capstone, however, some difficulty was noted in keeping the drill stable and perpendicular to the granite surface during the reciprocating motion of the bow.
This caused the granite rock core and the core hole to became tapered, as well as the core hole being overcut in the direction of the bow's motion. However, this effect was reduced as the core depth increased, and the overcutting of the core hole was kept symmetrical by changing the orientation of the bow during drilling.
The experiment took 20 hours to complete and generated a rock core 6 cm in length.
A rate for cutting granite with dry quartz sand abrasive of 5.2 cubic cm/hour was obtained.

Quite interesting indeed and described here.

www.oocities.com...

Perhaps interesting for some, I found a link to this e-book named
The Pyramids and Tenples of Gizeh.
by W.M. Flinders Petrie 1883.

www.ronaldbirdsall.com...


[edit on 8/6/10 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by merka
More than likely because there is not one Egyptologist that is a stonecutter with the combined knowledge of at least a 1000 years of masters passing down their skills to apprentices, which then become the masters.

Its really the same thing if you take US corn farmer from Texas or something and tell him to build the next Intel CPU and he's got 1 week to do it.

In several years of stuying Egyptology there must be a chapter on structures and how they were built.

And in the few hundred years of Egyptology there must have been some curious enough to try to copy the example.

[edit on 8-6-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by spacevisitor


So, to make a hole a foot deep it would take like 5 working days, right? Well, thinking as any 21st century (AD!!) person would, that's too wasteful, no? Thinking though as a 25th century (BC!!) person would, since we CAN do it this way, then we will do it this way no matter how long it will take!

As for the "exceptional" accuracy of some cuts, I have 2 questions.

1. Who vouches for this unparalleled accuracy? Is it really that accurate?

2. Is this, if the extraordinary accuracy is indeed such, beyond human capability? A good eye and a steady hand can work wonders you know!

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Is it not remarkable that most if not all of those marvelous works of craftsmanship where found in the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt - the first one built.

Yes it is and it once again confirms the idea that the further back you go, the more advanced thing get (as evidenced by the Great Pyramids themelves).