You've described wonderfully how institutions, states and religions impose their own versions of right and wrong upon us all and enforce them through
ideologies, laws and ultimatums. They force us to pick a side and present themselves as our reality and turn us against one another mercilessly.
Meanwhile they sit back and watch the fireworks as their plans draw closer to their goals.
Sometimes you don't even know you have chosen a side or are being used in this manner. There are some who will read this and wonder where exactly
I'm coming from and there are others who will read this and know all too well what I'm speaking of. Oh it is an ingenious control mechanism that is
used against us all and it is not one that is easily recognized, especially in the heat of a moment.
We do need to step back and put ourselves in the shoes of the other people and see how we are being perceived and why. Then we need to honestly ask
oursleves if we have been tricked or led into the mindset that we currently hold and if so, we have to be big enough to admit it and move on. I am
still uncovering a lot of what is used against us to our own demise and these are very dangerous times we live in.
I am confident that when we happen upon such individuals, who we are sure have been tricked, that we will be able to understand and offer an option
that will let them see the man behind the curtain. Some will not ever look, I know this firsthand, and some will peek hesitantly and over time will
come to realize what it is that has enslaved them. I believe the membership of ATS has what it takes to take the battle to the front lines in this
very dangerous game of the information age.
Divide and Conquer: Israel and the Internet War for Hearts and Minds, page 3
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:02 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Each case of right or wrong should be judged with the same simple standards based on the action. Not who committed the action, and why they feel justified in doing something wrong.
What we are not allowed to do in court as individuals, nations do every day as nations, religions do as religions and corporations do as corporations.
If I steal something it doesn't matter why I stole it. I have stolen and stealing is wrong.
That's how that works.
If nation A, decides to steal something from nation C, and claims that is because they are entitled to because what nation B did to them, now it's all about who is right and wrong, instead of what is right and wrong.
Stealing is stealing. Ask and thou shall recieve.
So no it doesn't matter who the theif was, or why they stole, the act was wrong.
The whole victim dictum arguments which is what anti-semtism is based on, is the belief that it's not really wrong, because I was wronged previously, or so I say, and I deserve a free pass at the plate.
That is all anti-semitism is.
You won't accept my self serving version of right and wrong, that is only designed to serve me, you are anti-me!
Think it through with out the who and the dogmas.
It is about the what and not the who.
The thread is about being able to tell the difference between what is right and wrong, in even, fair, and uniform ways.
It's about judging it on the action, not who committed the action to determine whether they were justified in doing something wrong.
You might not get it but that really is just an argument to be permitted to do something wrong, but only I am the one who gets to do something wrong and say it's right, if person a, or nation a, does the same thing to me, it's wrong!
Don't do as I do, do as I say.
That's all that argument is about.
It's not about the who, it's about the what.
The thread is not really about Israel, and I did ask people from refraining into making it about the who is right or wrong arguments.
To instead focus on considering the what is right and wrong argument, so who is not part of the equation.
Thanks.
[edit on 7/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
Each case of right or wrong should be judged with the same simple standards based on the action. Not who committed the action, and why they feel justified in doing something wrong.
What we are not allowed to do in court as individuals, nations do every day as nations, religions do as religions and corporations do as corporations.
If I steal something it doesn't matter why I stole it. I have stolen and stealing is wrong.
That's how that works.
If nation A, decides to steal something from nation C, and claims that is because they are entitled to because what nation B did to them, now it's all about who is right and wrong, instead of what is right and wrong.
Stealing is stealing. Ask and thou shall recieve.
So no it doesn't matter who the theif was, or why they stole, the act was wrong.
The whole victim dictum arguments which is what anti-semtism is based on, is the belief that it's not really wrong, because I was wronged previously, or so I say, and I deserve a free pass at the plate.
That is all anti-semitism is.
You won't accept my self serving version of right and wrong, that is only designed to serve me, you are anti-me!
Think it through with out the who and the dogmas.
It is about the what and not the who.
The thread is about being able to tell the difference between what is right and wrong, in even, fair, and uniform ways.
It's about judging it on the action, not who committed the action to determine whether they were justified in doing something wrong.
You might not get it but that really is just an argument to be permitted to do something wrong, but only I am the one who gets to do something wrong and say it's right, if person a, or nation a, does the same thing to me, it's wrong!
Don't do as I do, do as I say.
That's all that argument is about.
It's not about the who, it's about the what.
The thread is not really about Israel, and I did ask people from refraining into making it about the who is right or wrong arguments.
To instead focus on considering the what is right and wrong argument, so who is not part of the equation.
Thanks.
[edit on 7/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:04 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One last thing, If I may, we can take the centuries of negative experiences and turn this into a positive learning experience for eveyone, one where we all gain a deeper understanding of man.
I could start the topic, but I don't want negative posts, they add nothing to the discussion, and no one learns a thing.
Plus it gets on my nerves,
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
One last thing, If I may, we can take the centuries of negative experiences and turn this into a positive learning experience for eveyone, one where we all gain a deeper understanding of man.
I could start the topic, but I don't want negative posts, they add nothing to the discussion, and no one learns a thing.
Plus it gets on my nerves,
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:11 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Absolutely, I agree, then let's rise above it.
We know various organizations maintain a presence on the Internet and ATS not limited to the Israeli Internet Defense Forces, Southern Poverty Law Center, Jewish Defense League, American Defense League, Cass Sunstien Obama’s Information Czar who monitors and looks to influence public perception through the Internet and likely the Canadian, Australian, U.S., British, and Israeli Governments too. There is every chance some other organizations maintain a presence, and every chance some Islamic organizations maintain a presence too.
Absolutely, I agree, then let's rise above it.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:12 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Well once again, your fears are based on emotional reactions that you are locking yourself into through a self fulfilling prophecy.
If you feel the history of something, or some religion, or some nation is going to add perspective to a particular topic that's great.
Go for it.
Don't let yourself or what you fear or emotions stand in the way.
If you want to do good, do good, but understand that good should really be defined by the greater good.
The good of the many should outweigh the need of the few or the one.
So when you are arguing what's good for who, and that who is not everyone, well you may not in fact be arguing for what is good for everyone, since it is limited to just a few.
Then it's all based on the assumption that its good for that few, and everyone else if they were good would make that sacrifice, which honestly if the few were interested in playing on the same terms everyone else must, then no they would not need everyone else to make a sacrifice just for the good of themselves, and no they would not force other people to sacrifice just for the good of them.
This thread is about what is right and wrong, because it is right and wrong for the largest possible common denominator, not the smalles common denominator.
Think it through, good is good, bad is bad, when who enters into it, then politics enters into it, and then it becomes a political agreement to decide bad things are good, and good things are bad, and while those bad things might be good for a few, they are still bad for most, and while those good things might be good for a few they are still bad for most, and that is always what happens when the who and politics of who should decide when something wrong becomes right is involved.
Well once again, your fears are based on emotional reactions that you are locking yourself into through a self fulfilling prophecy.
If you feel the history of something, or some religion, or some nation is going to add perspective to a particular topic that's great.
Go for it.
Don't let yourself or what you fear or emotions stand in the way.
If you want to do good, do good, but understand that good should really be defined by the greater good.
The good of the many should outweigh the need of the few or the one.
So when you are arguing what's good for who, and that who is not everyone, well you may not in fact be arguing for what is good for everyone, since it is limited to just a few.
Then it's all based on the assumption that its good for that few, and everyone else if they were good would make that sacrifice, which honestly if the few were interested in playing on the same terms everyone else must, then no they would not need everyone else to make a sacrifice just for the good of themselves, and no they would not force other people to sacrifice just for the good of them.
This thread is about what is right and wrong, because it is right and wrong for the largest possible common denominator, not the smalles common denominator.
Think it through, good is good, bad is bad, when who enters into it, then politics enters into it, and then it becomes a political agreement to decide bad things are good, and good things are bad, and while those bad things might be good for a few, they are still bad for most, and while those good things might be good for a few they are still bad for most, and that is always what happens when the who and politics of who should decide when something wrong becomes right is involved.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:19 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
NO I am not emotional, I haven't been emotional since 2005, and this isn't about religion, how did you come to that conclusion?
I am looking to research historical factors, you know,
“No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.”
and,
“Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”
Edmund Burke
Very pertinent, I believe.
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
Well once again, your fears are based on emotional reactions that you are locking yourself into through a self fulfilling prophecy.
If you feel the history of something, or some religion, or some nation is going to add perspective to a particular topic that's great.
NO I am not emotional, I haven't been emotional since 2005, and this isn't about religion, how did you come to that conclusion?
I am looking to research historical factors, you know,
“No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.”
and,
“Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”
Edmund Burke
Very pertinent, I believe.
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:21 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by jackflap
And that my friend is my whole point here, is that so many of us run around the boards most of the time when there is no great immediate crisis talking about being awake, and talking about sheeple, and talking about evolving, and making the world a better place...
Then a crisis comes along, and the media and government and corporations always spin it in emotional and polarizing ways and we go right back to being asleep and the very sheeple we often make fun of or chide, and fall right back on all the tried and true dogmas that have kept us from evolving and making the world a better place forever, to instead choose sides for our Masters, and don our gladiator helmets and swords and go after one another like we are all dumber than a box of rocks.
This is ATS and I do think we can rise above that, but we need to admit first and foremost to ourselves, when in fact we are failing to, and ask why.
There is not much point in trying to escape the box and in the box thinking if every time WWW III comes to town we jump right back in the box and use that in the box thinking!
A great post as always my friend, thanks for sharing.
We do need to step back and put ourselves in the shoes of the other people and see how we are being perceived and why. Then we need to honestly ask oursleves if we have been tricked or led into the mindset that we currently hold and if so, we have to be big enough to admit it and move on. I am still uncovering a lot of what is used against us to our own demise and these are very dangerous times we live in.
I am confident that when we happen upon such individuals, who we are sure have been tricked, that we will be able to understand and offer an option that will let them see the man behind the curtain. Some will not ever look, I know this firsthand, and some will peek hesitantly and over time will come to realize what it is that has enslaved them. I believe the membership of ATS has what it takes to take the battle to the front lines in this very dangerous game of the information age.
And that my friend is my whole point here, is that so many of us run around the boards most of the time when there is no great immediate crisis talking about being awake, and talking about sheeple, and talking about evolving, and making the world a better place...
Then a crisis comes along, and the media and government and corporations always spin it in emotional and polarizing ways and we go right back to being asleep and the very sheeple we often make fun of or chide, and fall right back on all the tried and true dogmas that have kept us from evolving and making the world a better place forever, to instead choose sides for our Masters, and don our gladiator helmets and swords and go after one another like we are all dumber than a box of rocks.
This is ATS and I do think we can rise above that, but we need to admit first and foremost to ourselves, when in fact we are failing to, and ask why.
There is not much point in trying to escape the box and in the box thinking if every time WWW III comes to town we jump right back in the box and use that in the box thinking!
A great post as always my friend, thanks for sharing.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:24 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777
You are looking to research the history of a who, for the benefit of understanding a who.
The thread is about the what of right and wrong.
Please consider that and try to stay on topic here.
Here is a hint, if you can't tell the difference between right and wrong as it's happening today, in a singular act without referencing a history book to figure it out, then you aren't looking at the singular act as to whether it is right or wrong, you are looking for precedent in history as to how to predicate it is right or wrong.
The action is right or wrong.
If stealing is wrong, if I steal todady, I need not understand the history or who all stole and why, to understand it's wrong.
Let's focus on the topic please.
Thanks.
[edit on 7/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
You are looking to research the history of a who, for the benefit of understanding a who.
The thread is about the what of right and wrong.
Please consider that and try to stay on topic here.
Here is a hint, if you can't tell the difference between right and wrong as it's happening today, in a singular act without referencing a history book to figure it out, then you aren't looking at the singular act as to whether it is right or wrong, you are looking for precedent in history as to how to predicate it is right or wrong.
The action is right or wrong.
If stealing is wrong, if I steal todady, I need not understand the history or who all stole and why, to understand it's wrong.
Let's focus on the topic please.
Thanks.
[edit on 7/6/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:27 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by jackflap
Very wise, know thyself comes first, we have to examine what we have been taught, if it is true, and be honest enough to say I was wrong.
I see a lot of hysterical post based on very little knowledge of any given situation.
I still like that book about control dramas.
It was the best book on why we wont relinquish control that I ever read, it taught me a lot about myself.
We do need to step back and put ourselves in the shoes of the other people and see how we are being perceived and why. Then we need to honestly ask oursleves if we have been tricked or led into the mindset that we currently hold and if so, we have to be big enough to admit it and move on.
Very wise, know thyself comes first, we have to examine what we have been taught, if it is true, and be honest enough to say I was wrong.
I see a lot of hysterical post based on very little knowledge of any given situation.
I still like that book about control dramas.
It was the best book on why we wont relinquish control that I ever read, it taught me a lot about myself.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:31 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Proto try not to get emotional,
So we are talking about right and wrong, or propaganda, didn't you bring up Organizations that propagandizes?
Right and wrong, now that's a deep subject.
Define it for me.
Proto try not to get emotional,
So we are talking about right and wrong, or propaganda, didn't you bring up Organizations that propagandizes?
Right and wrong, now that's a deep subject.
Define it for me.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:36 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Aren't we putting aside who is right and who is wrong?
or,
What is right and what is wrong?
I'll be right back.
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
Once again during the best of times, when no crisis looms many members see this at play in the politics that drive the world, and the history of the world, and recognize the devastating effects of divide and conquer, yet that all too often goes out the window when that crisis of right and wrong emerges.
In politics and sociology, divide and rule (derived from Latin divide et impera) (also known as divide and conquer) is a combination of political, military and economic strategy of gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into chunks that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy. In reality, it often refers to a strategy where small power groups are prevented from linking up and becoming more powerful, since it is difficult to break up existing power structures.
Wikipedia
So I am asking all members of ATS to stop and reflect a moment on the principles of divide and conquer, and to put aside the notions of who is right or wrong, and what is right and wrong and ask your self one simple question.
Aren't we putting aside who is right and who is wrong?
or,
What is right and what is wrong?
I'll be right back.
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:39 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777
I am keeping the thread on track is what I am doing Storm Dancer, and one of the reasons this thread exists is because you and other members who suggested I use my stature on the boards for a call to reason, so please assist me, in keeping the thread on track.
You might want to reread the opening post and focus on the different aspects in sub titles, Winning Hearts and Minds, Divide and Conquer, It's Not About Who is Wrong or Right, but What is Wrong or Right, are the four topical sub categories.
Issues of wrong and right are basically simple. If you don't want anyone to kill you, don't condone anyone killing someone else.
If you don't want someone to steal from you, don't condone anyone stealing from someone else.
If you don't want someone to kill you, don't send a conflicting message that it's ok to kill some people, some times, based on this factor or that factor.
It's wrong to kill people all the time.
Your action of murder is not excused by someone elses previous action of murder.
Your action of theft is not excuses by someone elses previous action of theft.
Even standards, for all parties, all the time, based on simple truths, not politics, political correctness, conventional wisdom, victim dictums or anything else.
Very simple.
The what of right and wrong, not the who.
I am keeping the thread on track is what I am doing Storm Dancer, and one of the reasons this thread exists is because you and other members who suggested I use my stature on the boards for a call to reason, so please assist me, in keeping the thread on track.
You might want to reread the opening post and focus on the different aspects in sub titles, Winning Hearts and Minds, Divide and Conquer, It's Not About Who is Wrong or Right, but What is Wrong or Right, are the four topical sub categories.
Issues of wrong and right are basically simple. If you don't want anyone to kill you, don't condone anyone killing someone else.
If you don't want someone to steal from you, don't condone anyone stealing from someone else.
If you don't want someone to kill you, don't send a conflicting message that it's ok to kill some people, some times, based on this factor or that factor.
It's wrong to kill people all the time.
Your action of murder is not excused by someone elses previous action of murder.
Your action of theft is not excuses by someone elses previous action of theft.
Even standards, for all parties, all the time, based on simple truths, not politics, political correctness, conventional wisdom, victim dictums or anything else.
Very simple.
The what of right and wrong, not the who.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:41 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again during the best of times, when no crisis looms many members see this at play in the politics that drive the world, and the history of the world, and recognize the devastating effects of divide and conquer, yet that all too often goes out the window when that crisis of right and wrong emerges.
In politics and sociology, divide and rule (derived from Latin divide et impera) (also known as divide and conquer) is a combination of political, military and economic strategy of gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into chunks that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy. In reality, it often refers to a strategy where small power groups are prevented from linking up and becoming more powerful, since it is difficult to break up existing power structures.
Wikipedia
So I am asking all members of ATS to stop and reflect a moment on the principles of divide and conquer, and to put aside the notions of who is right or wrong, and what is right and wrong and ask your self one simple question.
Aren't we putting aside who is right and who is wrong?
or,
What is right and what is wrong?
I'll be right back.
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
You might want to have included the question that came after the out of context quote Storm Dancer.
Once again, please reread the opening piece, try to get the jist of it, and then ask questions if you have some genuine ones.
Thanks!
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:51 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777
Seriously Storm Dancer take your time and read the opening piece.
It is self explanatory for the most part.
If you simply let go of what ever your brought with you in the way of expactations for this thread, and take the time to read the thread, then I think you most of your confusion and questions resulting from your confusion will be answered.
You might want to read some of the other posts in the thread as some of the other posters have really hit on the concept too, and left great additional comments and insights.
Seriously Storm Dancer take your time and read the opening piece.
It is self explanatory for the most part.
If you simply let go of what ever your brought with you in the way of expactations for this thread, and take the time to read the thread, then I think you most of your confusion and questions resulting from your confusion will be answered.
You might want to read some of the other posts in the thread as some of the other posters have really hit on the concept too, and left great additional comments and insights.
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:52 PM by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Flagged, my friend. You are spot on.
One of the most frustrating tendencies that I see with posts on threads such as the one you mentioned, is the inability of some posters to look at each situation as a separate point of debate. All too often, posters look at WHO was involved in each incident, and make their decisions based on that, and not on the facts.
In addition, if one disagrees with such a poster, many times they will come back with comments like "you are a Zionist", if the post, for instance, supports Israel, or "you are a bigot" if one does not support the Israeli stance.
As I pointed out in the thread you mentioned, posters should look at each incident on its own, as no party, (country, organization, etc) is always right or always wrong.
Otherwise, we fail to "Deny Ignorance".
Flagged, my friend. You are spot on.
One of the most frustrating tendencies that I see with posts on threads such as the one you mentioned, is the inability of some posters to look at each situation as a separate point of debate. All too often, posters look at WHO was involved in each incident, and make their decisions based on that, and not on the facts.
In addition, if one disagrees with such a poster, many times they will come back with comments like "you are a Zionist", if the post, for instance, supports Israel, or "you are a bigot" if one does not support the Israeli stance.
As I pointed out in the thread you mentioned, posters should look at each incident on its own, as no party, (country, organization, etc) is always right or always wrong.
Otherwise, we fail to "Deny Ignorance".
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:56 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by schrodingers dog
Darn that's deep, it had crossed my mind that peoples of many nation are manipulated into taking sides,
But people also have a choice to be manipulated, that's why I bring up centuries of propaganda as a source or root cause of hatred, information has been planted into the human psyche, that can be hard to overcome.
Brainwashing
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
Without wishing to be too abstract, "divide and conquer" is only effective if/when the subjects/people define themselves via their thoughts ... for if they do, being "right" legitimizes/reinforces the ego and being "wrong" is a personal affront to it.
Without this realization, it's all just talking thoughts posting in the night.
A thought unpossessed is a thought that cannot be divided or conquered.
Darn that's deep, it had crossed my mind that peoples of many nation are manipulated into taking sides,
But people also have a choice to be manipulated, that's why I bring up centuries of propaganda as a source or root cause of hatred, information has been planted into the human psyche, that can be hard to overcome.
Brainwashing
[edit on 073030p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]
reply posted on 7-6-2010 @ 07:59 PM by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ProfEmeritus
Well, absolutely, but they wont stop.
In addition, if one disagrees with such a poster, many times they will come back with comments like "you are a Zionist", if the post, for instance, supports Israel, or "you are a bigot" if one does not support the Israeli stance.
Well, absolutely, but they wont stop.
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