A Possible Solution To The Worlds Problems A RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY

I am a member of The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM) and I want to applaud chrisrand and others for bringing this important topic to this forum. A resource based economy (RBE) is a completely new idea that requires many people to strip away much of what they think they know about the world. This is a scary notion and is often met with confusion. Much of human society has lost touch with nature and has forgotten that we are part of it and subject to the same natural laws that govern it.

So much of what we think is 'normal' to humans and society are culturally determined derivatives. Many of which are actually maladaptive, especially in the long-term. Culture is a behavioral adaptation. Since humans have the ability to change their behaviors and their society, we can learn to create a culture that works in harmony with the natural world. The planet is an entire system and we need to operate within the natural order of things. We currently have the technology and ability to do just that but in order for it to work it needs to happen on a global scale. Therefore, it is necessary to educate people about news ideas and news way of doing things. Once one understands the tenets of TZM, everything will click and you will realize that there is no other option for humanity because the current system is not working and will fail because it is not sustainable.

The ideas promoted by TZM are based on scientific research. There are videos, lectures, articles on TZM's website that can present the information to you and answer most of your questions. Because many of these ideas are new and/or complex, it is difficult to answer all of the questions, IMO, in a forum such as this. This may be a reason that why TZM members refer people to the website materials. I've learned that it takes time for many individuals to be ready to embrace these new concepts. The materials allow people to take-in this knowledge in their own manner and time. I can't emphasize to you enough that you view the materials. I completely support TZM and I expect that in time you will too. Watch "Zeitgeist Addendum".

I don't know where to begin with addressing some of the questions posted in this thread. The question of motivation and incentive is a common objection by many. For me, it is a non-issue. I don't believe that money creates incentive. There are many examples that provide evidence for me. And I don't know where to begin and my examples may seem random and simplistic but I encourage to really think about this and investigate the topic further on your own.

Would you rather do something because it is something you want to do? or because, Someone else is motivating you to do it (money or not)? I know how I would answer.

I am an educator. I love what I do - but I am not well paid. In a RBE, I would still want to educate people, but I also embrace the idea of pursuing other things because I could. That would be awesome - it would be freedom.

Most of what I do, has nothing to do with the monetary gain that I receive. One example, my reply in this forum. There is no monetary incentive whatsoever in promoting TZM - yet I am spending my time writing this post. I would like to think that I am helping to educate people.

In the current system, what do really rich people do, especially when they are free from the drudgery of common work? Many find philanthropic endeavors. Oh really, you mean ... people might actually want to help the world and other people when they could be sitting in front of their HDTV eating Doritos instead?

Jonas Salk was a research scientist that developed the polio vaccine. He chose not to patent the vaccine and to not seek monetary benefit for his development because he believed it was for the common good.

Humans are intelligent beings that have a natural curiosity and want to solve problems. What do you know about human evolution? Well, the overwhelming majority of human history is prehistory - long before monetary benefits. Individuals must have had incentive to further their knowledge, understanding, and problem-solving skills. Somehow, we created tools, designed art, domesticated fire, animals, and plants without getting paid.

What about all the things that I do for my friends and family? No monetary gain there. Could you imagine what would happen once people recognize the entire planet and human population as one family. We are all related and part of the same system - all humans need to realize this.

I believe that all people are good-natured. People want to cooperate, participate, and make things better for themselves and others. Humans are primates. Much can be learned from our primate heritage about what it really means to be human. In general, primate populations are social and cooperative. Disputes within primate societies are often the result of scarcity or access to resources. What would be the implications for a human society that eliminates scarcity and provides access to resources for everyone? We might just get along.

Also, realize that much of corruption and crime that we have in society today is the result of monetary deprivation. TZM attempts to address the root cause of our societal problems. The first step is to eliminate the monetary system which creates many problems and corruptions. Only a solution that address the root cause of our problems can get us out of the current mess.

A RBE is not a utopia, just a better way of doing things, and the only real option for our future.

reply to post by zeitgeist927


With all due respect I have been reading these websites and watching the videos and I can’t find anything that is based on genuine scientific research. The more I listen to Jacque Fresco the more I am convinced that he is basing his views on human behaviour on behaviourism, a thoroughly discredited theory in psychology.

Would you rather do something because it is something you want to do? or because, Someone else is motivating you to do it (money or not)? I know how I would answer.

But that isn’t the point, this whole system relies on peoples desires being distributed in such a way that covers all the jobs that need doing. However this is unlikely to be the case, for example out of a pool of 100 people you might need 50 people to do machine maintenance, 20 people to be doctors or fire fighters etc, 15 people to be administrators and 5 people to do research and development. However in reality you may actually get 40 people who want to be doctors etc, 20 people who want to do R&D, 20 people who want to do something completely different (musician, actor etc) and only 20 people who want to either be the admin or do maintenance.

The point being that there is no way to guarantee that anyone will voluntarily do the jobs that you need doing; especially if they would be doing something that they don’t really want to do, for the benefit of everyone else, while everyone else does something they enjoy. How do you deal with that? What if no one wants to maintain all this automation?

In the current system, what do really rich people do, especially when they are free from the drudgery of common work? Many find philanthropic endeavours

They give money and pay for other people to do the hard boring work. They don’t tend to go out to Ethiopia and dig wells, nor do they do the boring stuff like watch a production line to make sure it is running efficiently. It is these kinds of things that would suffer under this RBE, not the prestige stuff that requires small numbers of people and that are generally well valued by society.

What about all the things that I do for my friends and family? No monetary gain there. Could you imagine what would happen once people recognize the entire planet and human population as one family.

But we won’t, not at an individual level at least. We are limited by human psychology which this system is hopelessly optimistic about at best and totally ignores at worst. Human altruism is based on genetic factors (close relations) and reciprocity; i.e. you help other because you expect to be helped in return. The system proposed gives no reason for anyone to help anyone else, if everything is meant to be provided for free with no barriers then opportunities to help others will be much reduced.

Also, realize that much of corruption and crime that we have in society today is the result of monetary deprivation.

A) Do you have figures to back that up?

And

B) What about the proportion that is not a result of economic deprivation?

I just would like to thank the OP in the greatest way i can think of! This is the type of idea I always knew was a possibility growing up in poverty as a child. For some reason I knew there had to be a better way. I never really understood how our paper money was backed by magical pretty rocks ??? Its a man made idea/system and we all know it is flawed to the point where we potentially can become slaves and we will know tyranny like there is NO other in the coming centuries! I mean look at BP telling our coast guard what they can and cant do???? A FOREIGN BUSINESS is telling our govt entities how to do things and has total control because of what MONEY!!!! This is NEW this and IS proof of the trend that is year by year eating away at our freedom like a cancer. I would devote my life to this kind of work!!! We have the technology to have machines run the show as far as agrigulture, waste management, transportation (w/o oil), shleter (w/o rent), etc etc etc the list goes on and on! We literally do not need rent, electric-water bills!! This can be provided for free!!!!!! If all citizens were given free homes and food and emenities are shared by all from the best technologies we can make at that time. With all people free of manual labor (if they want) they can now focus all our time and energy as a society towards arts and sciences so we can better the "system" and our quality of civilization! Money makes us compete AGAINST each other! Now its neighbor vs neighbor because we have to fight better jobs which divides us!!! We hate our neighbors having better toys and its wrong!! This change can be implemented WITHOUT A WAR!!!!! Please our world governments just need to talk about it thats all!! A free exchange of ideas without politlcal agendas. These politicians will fear loss of power so the trick is getting the world leaders to join in. Sure they will lose power now but their grandchildren and great grandchildren and on and on will no longer be SLAVES!!!! This is BIG folks. We are better then this slave mentality I am sad when i imagine how great we can be : Picture no war for oil!! No war for resources! We are soo unbalanced spiritually I feel these changes will free our spirit from servitude. Did you ever dream of being something great but having to work 40 hrs a week to pay bills so you can live and eat kept you from your dreams. Thank you again OP star and flag sir. Thank you ATS as well for having a place for these ideas to be examined without people being called a heretic.

This is a VERY interesting website with a lot of information to better our society. LINK: www2.thevenusproject.com...



[edit on 12-6-2010 by Interfacer]

Originally posted by Mike_A
All I read is…

Phase 1 – Get rid of money
Phase 2 – ?
Phase 3 – Prosperity

Exactly how would this work? I mean if everything is a communal resource then what incentive is there for anyone to work and produce this utopia? If I can get all my food, water and anything else for free why would or should I bother contributing?

The inevitable outcome is that everyone will end up taking this point of view and the system would collapse; the whole idea relies on universal agreement which is contrary to everything we can observe in society.

I’ve only read the thread as I don’t have time to watch the video or anything so maybe I’ve missed something but I fail to see any reason to believe this would ever work.

Edit - Ah, I’ve just read the FAQ on the Venus Project website and their answer to the question “How would one choose a home?” is:

An example of the wide range of choice available in a resource-based economy is the way one selects a house. For instance, a man and woman may visit an architectural design center and sit in front of a clear hemisphere approximately six feet in diameter. The woman describes the type of house she would prefer and her areas of interest. The house appears as a 3-dimensional image in the center of the hemisphere. It rotates slowly to present a view of the interior and exterior. Then the man describes his major interests and preferences and suggests a larger balcony. The 3-dimensional image is adjusted. When they have finished requesting changes, the computer presents various alternatives to consider. They will also enter a sensorium to experience a walk-through of their preferred design and continue to make changes.

This isn’t an economic theory, it’s not even an attempt at an economic theory.

Edit 2 - Oh GOD! This bit is even better!

Q – “For reasons best known to geneticists, some people inherit different colored eyes from those of other people around them. In a grand overall vision of social and economic reform such as The Venus Project, what about those few who will always exhibit aberrant behavior under any system?”

A – “You must remember that Jacque has been at this almost all of his life, and so have I for the last 33 years. He encountered these questions early in his youth. That’s why he joined the KKK and the White Citizen’s Council and worked on ways of turning them around. He was successful at this.”

Successful?! Ah yes because the KKK are now well known for skipping around inner city Detroit handing out daisies to all the black children! Utter tosh. Oh and the author goes on to completely deny the impact that genetics have on behaviour!

www.thevenusproject.com...

Question 84



This is pure day dreaming rubbish.

[edit on 6-6-2010 by Mike_A]

[edit on 6-6-2010 by Mike_A]

Your will naturally just want to be a part of all the advancements being made and most will truly be unhappy doing nothing. Even though doing nothing is purely going to be your choice theres too many things your going to be unterested in doing now having acheived an equal economical/social status ! Things will be soo positive you are going to want to be part of all the new imporovements we will no longer be slaves and you will see a new phenomenon occur in society we will spiritually feel free no longer labor slaves taught to do a 40hr a week job instead of pursueing your dreams!

This is a great idea! I've already staked out 40 acres or so as my part of the earth. You can just airdrop my supplies in with your robot jet planes. Don't worry, it's in a thickly wooded area, with no minerals or such, so I'll not be cutting in to your resources.

I'll not be participating in the building of your utopia, but that's ok, because you've already said it's ok, and I can get away with doing nothing. Just airdrop my stuff in, and it's all good. Don't try to bring it in overland, though. You see, I saw what you had to say about how we just need to be "re-educated", and in some cases "psychologically treated" until we come around to your way of thinking. I know how those "re-education camps" and "psychological treatment facilities" went during the last couple of attempts to implement this agenda on planet earth, and I'm afraid I'll have to view any interlopers on my patch as a threat. That's ok, though, because since you say there won't be any more laws, it won't be illegal if I just drop 'em where they stand. I don't feel any particular need to be "re-educated" or "psychologically treated" into becoming a good little cog in your machine rather than the individual I currently am.

So no, don't try to bring my freebie stuff in overland. Just airdrop it from your robot jets.

Make sure none of the shipments are late, by the way. If I were to get hungry or anything... and I thought some of the neighbors might NOT be hungry.... and there aren't any more laws to prevent it (other than the law of the jungle, which you just plain can't eradicate)... well, you know the drill, right?

Naw, don't miss any shipments... and make sure they're airdropped in by robo-plane... and nobody get hurt, everybody goes home happy.

Yeah, I LIKE this idea!

reply to post by Interfacer


I think its wonderful that you have come to this conclusion all on your own. I know that as a child your usually indoctrinated by your families value system and its hard to break from it. But some of us were born with this need for something more.

When your asked as a child,"What do you want to become?" the question is rhetorical, but you are led to believe it is possible to become anything you want.

The point of reading my OP is not to believe in a utopia, because there is no such thing as one. Its to realize the pointlessness in the current system to be working, just to work. Americans are working longer and longer hours, for a company they don't like, for a job they hate and with co-workers that feel the same way.

Imagine following your true passions in life or better yet, having the opportunity to find out what those passions are in the first place. That kind of thing is really hard to do in todays world.

Please to all of you reading this, don't get dismissive because you see that there is a possibility to live in a radically different world than what currently exists. You should take some time to watch some of the films on the topics and then you can make up your mind. Don't just take my word for it.

Venus Project Key Concepts Video

reply to post by nenothtu


Well I know your being cynical and you have every right to be, but this is coming from an uninformed person on 1) The inherent problems with society 2) the solutions addressed by The Venus Project.

I would advise you and anyone else not familiar with the information at hand, to check out the videos I linked in the OP as well as some amazing comments made throughout this post that may answer some questions you are having.

Originally posted by chrisrand
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Well I know your being cynical and you have every right to be, but this is coming from an uninformed person on 1) The inherent problems with society 2) the solutions addressed by The Venus Project.

Well, yeah, I AM being cynical, but that's just me. It's my nature. I wouldn't say I'm uninformed as to the inherent problems of society, but it's entirely likely that I'm aware of different ones than you are aware of. Seen 'em up close and in person.

Matter of fact, that's what made me cynical to begin with.

Now, all of that may be so, but I'm dead serious about already having my patch of woods staked out, and my intent to keep any 'society' folks of the sort you propose off of it. Go ahead and make it happen, more power to ya. I'm opting out. Drop supplies if you like, give my share to someone else if you like, I don't care, really. I'm opting out of any such plan, and legally, since there will be no laws, I can do so. Don't like the sound of "re-education" and "psych treatment to get my mind right with your mode of thinking". Nossir, don't like the sounds of that at all. Don't want it, ain't having it, and sure as shooting won't sit still while I'm wired into it.

Don't care how many 'enforcers' or whatever you call 'em you want to send. Tell 'em to bring their own body bags. No law is no law. I won't be held to law if there isn't any. It's jungle law at that point. Might be a better idea just to leave me, and folks like me, be. Healthier for everybody. I'm sure they can get me in the end, but It'll be costly in manpower - something your new society is going to need to retain, and not just as fertilizer.

If you prefer to hang on to my share of the supplies, that's fine. I've got all the confidence in the world that the patch I have staked out will provide. I come from a long line of folks that can make that happen, and got plenty much practice at it .

Remember - you get it done, more power to ya, but you send anyone to force me into your collective, tell 'em to bring their own body bags, and don't expect any sort of loud noises or warnings of any sort afore they start falling down. I expect your new society will outlaw firearms before it outlaws laws, and I've got that covered.

I'll not bury them on my patch, either, since they wanted a share in your bigger patch, but I'll leave 'em stacked where they can be retrieved. That ain't part of jungle law or natural law either, but it's just the kind of nice guy I am. One thing is certain - your lawless utopia won't be able to say "boo" about it, one way or the other. No law is No law.

Also, I said "me and folks like me" because I'm not the only "me" around. There are lots more, just like me, except most of them are not nearly as sociable as I am, so you never hear much from them.

I would advise you and anyone else not familiar with the information at hand, to check out the videos I linked in the OP as well as some amazing comments made throughout this post that may answer some questions you are having.

You've already answered any potential questions I had, so don't sweat it. I wondered how you thought you could make that work, and you served the answers up on a silver platter. I'm not having it for me or mine. Thanks all the same.

I checked out the "zeitgeist" thing long ago. It's unworkable. A pretty picture, a nice pipe dream, but utterly unworkable. I tried checking out the Venus Project thing, but couldn't make it half way down the first page. That was FAR too way out there.

I'm not saying you can't make it work period. They made it work for almost 70 years in Russia, and a somewhat shorter time in other places. A couple are still ongoing, so I reckon the experiment hasn't ended yet. I'd say the US is near ripe for it, with what I've been hearing some folks say. So you might be able to get it done. Just no telling for how long. And I'm nice enough to tell you right up front that when they come for me, and folks like me (at this point, that includes my kids, too, They're not as devious as I am yet, but they make up for that by being younger, stronger, and faster) there's going to be trouble. we don't plan on being "re-educated" or "psych treated" - not and live through it. Furthermore, we don't intend on getting assimilated as further cogs in the collective. That mess has already gone quite far enough.

Nossir, we'll leave you folks alone if you leave US alone.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I want to opt-out of your collective. Where are the forms for me to sign?

Did you change your signature just to adjust it to my post, if so thats very unpleasing.

But you know, its your land so you may do as you please. I feel bad though that you have been through as much as you have that makes you feel resentment enough that you want to leave society. The idea is that you will have complete freedom more so than what you can have on your own with your guns.

If you want to address me personally for any questions you can U2U me. I would be more than willing to give you a better idea of what the Venus Project offers.

Originally posted by chrisrand

Originally posted by nenothtu
I want to opt-out of your collective. Where are the forms for me to sign?

Did you change your signature just to adjust it to my post, if so thats very unpleasing.

No, it's been that way for a long while now. So long, in fact, that it's about time to change it again. I just haven't come up with a new one. No, it wasn't on account of you. It was because of far too many collectivist things I've been hearing. Specifically, I think that one was a response to the health care travesty, and I put it there before it passed. I'm opting out of that fiasco, too, and flat out refuse to participate. I'll take care of my own health, and when the time comes that I can't, I'll die. It's the natural course of events, and we all do some day.

But you know, its your land so you may do as you please. I feel bad though that you have been through as much as you have that makes you feel resentment enough that you want to leave society. The idea is that you will have complete freedom more so than what you can have on your own with your guns.

Well, what I've seen has caused me to love people, but hate humanity, if that makes any sense. I want no part of what passes for civilization and society these days.

I don't see how your brave new society can operate without first taking all the land from everyone, and giving it to centralized planning for the production of the plenty you mention.

We may be defining "complete freedom" differently. I can't see any way at all for complete freedom to be afforded inside of a collective. It has always worked out, and always will, that individuals are submerged as cogs in the machine in a collective. No freedom in that, and a collective cannot operate any other way. Having plenty of 'things' even, is no substitute for freedom, it only keeps the cogs placated, so that they willingly produce more to enrich the collective.

No, to me 'complete freedom' is when I am left alone, guns or not. Don't really need 'em, but with complete freedom, they can't really be on a non-existent 'proscribed list', either. Hanging around folks who think they can run my world better than I can, and then proceed to insist that I allow that, isn't much in the way of freedom to my mind.

If you want to address me personally for any questions you can U2U me. I would be more than willing to give you a better idea of what the Venus Project offers.

I appreciate the offer, I really do, but it's not really necessary. If the Venus Project offers to leave me be, that's enough, and more than I can get your current society to do. Any society that seeks to subjugate, or even just get me to ride along on it's meltdown, isn't anything for me to desire being a part of.