World Courts Trump U.S. Constitution!, page 1
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Topic started on 10-6-2004 @ 09:55 AM by Toelint
The following is an exerpt from: disc.server.com...

The trend ignited in 2002 when the Supreme Court ruled that executing the mentally retarded violated the U.S. Constitution's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment found in the Eighth Amendment. In doing so, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that "within the world community, the imposition of the death penalty for crimes committed by mentally retarded defenders is overwhelmingly disapproved." Justice Stevens went on to point out that even Communist China refuses to execute the mentally retarded.

The justices followed that up in 2003 when Justice Anthony Kennedy, in a decision that struck down Texas' sodomy law as being unconstitutional, cited a 1981 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that expanded gay rights.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, in her opinion last year that permitted affirmative action programs in U.S. law schools, cited the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

In a speech last October, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said that she believed the Supreme Court "will rely increasingly on international and foreign courts in examining domestic issues."

"Several of the justices have clearly indicated that this is a trend that will continue," says Southern Methodist University law dean John Attanasio, who points out that law schools across the country are starting to adjust their constitutional law curricula to address the swing.

"The U.S. Supreme Court has been a major force in promoting the rule of law throughout the world," he says. "But if other countries' courts are citing the U.S. courts, but there's no reciprocity, then it is difficult for the U.S. to remain a leader in the development of international law."

Dean Attanasio and other legal scholars say the trend can largely be attributed to the recent international travels by the U.S. justices to interact with their foreign counterparts.

"The set of justices who strongly support the movement – Justices O'Connor, Kennedy, Ginsberg and Stephen Breyer – are the ones who regularly travel abroad to meet with judges and legal authorities," says Mr. Baker. "The American justices have come to view the foreign judges as their peer group.

"I guarantee you that judges abroad give the American justices a very hard time about the death penalty in America," he says. "That has an impact."

Legal experts say the American justices are referring to the international court decisions the same way they do law reviews – not as controlling authority but as advice or guidance on how others think laws should be interpreted.

"The danger would be if the U.S. Supreme Court considered the decisions by international courts to be precedents binding on our courts," says Mr. Attanasio. "Then that would threaten or compromise our sovereignty as a constitutional democracy. All we're saying is that these foreign court decisions should be looked at, considered and viewed as possibly persuasive."

But even that is improper, according to one of the high court's own, Justice Antonin Scalia.

"The court's discussion of these foreign views ... is meaningless dicta, dangerous dicta, since this court should not impose foreign moods, fads or fashions on Americans," Justice Scalia wrote in dissent in the Texas sodomy case.

U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) is so outraged by the trend that he introduced a resolution that advises the Supreme Court that it is "improper for them to substitute foreign law for American law or the American Constitution."

Okay, maybe I pasted a bit more than was necessary, but surely I made my point! Do we need to start pulling out of a few treaties to get the message across to the Supreme Court? Foreign Laws should NOT trump U.S. Law, and ESPECIALLY NOT the Constitution!


reply posted on 10-6-2004 @ 12:20 PM by Bleys
IMO this is is a perfect example of conservative spin that seeks only to work the masses into righteous indignation.

This is evident from your own post:

Originally posted by Toelint
Legal experts say the American justices are referring to the international court decisions the same way they do law reviews – not as controlling authority but as advice or guidance on how others think laws should be interpreted.


This is well within their mandate. Had a decision been based entirely or solely on an international law or treaty, then I would agree that the Court was out of line. But in each of these cases, the decision was ultimately based on Constitutional protections. The references to international law are simply to show additional support for the decision and not a precedent for it.

It's also interesting that the article failed to mention any of the binding authorities that have come from related US cases.

I found an article written for the Harvard Law Review in 1890 by Brandeis and Warren involving invasion of privacy issues. In the opinon piece both reference several English court cases involving similar invasions of privacy. I find this significant in that issues of the constitutionality of law are normally decided through precedent. But what is a Court to do if there is no US precedent, as noted in the Brandeis/Warren piece? Rather than legislate through judicial activism, both fell back on precedents set by English Courts involving similar invasions that were supported by the US constitution.

As long as SCOTUS is only using International law as a guide or for advice, there is no conflict or threat of judicial activism.

Here's the link to the 1890 Harvard Law Review piece:
Harvard


reply posted on 10-6-2004 @ 03:23 PM by Bleys
Originally posted by Toelint
When SCOTUS starts overturning it's OWN decisions, citing European Law to do so...THAT gives it precidence. THAT Makes it binding.

"The justices followed that up in 2003 when Justice Anthony Kennedy, in a decision that struck down Texas' sodomy law as being unconstitutional, cited a 1981 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that expanded gay rights."

If this isn't Trumping the Supreme Court's 1986 decision against Gay Rights, pray tell, what is??


First, of all quit being snotty or I won't play with you anymore.

Secondly, Kennedy did not overturn the law or the Bowers decision using the Euro Court of Human rights. The majority's decision overturned the law and the original Bowers decision as a violation of the 14th amendment's protection. The reference to Eurpean law was just that a reference and not to establish a superceding precedent.

Side Note: If you read the entire decision Kennedy, writing for the majority, noted that sodomy, buggery, etc. laws were all derived from English law and had little to do with homosexual acts but were more about non-procreative acts. In fact, he notes that the word homsexual was a late 19th century invention. He goes on to say that only a few states to maintain these laws and they are rarely if ever enforced.

Now directly to your point, Justice Kennedy cites the European courts not to establish precedent, but to make a point. The Justices in the Bowers case noted that the US relies on common values we share with a wider civilization. Kennedy merely noted that if this was true, then those values have changed as can be noted in European recent decisions. In other words what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

In the end what it came down to for SCOTUS was 3 things: Does TX law violate the 14th amendment? Is adult consensual intimacy in the home protected by the 14th amendment? Was the Bowers decision wrong? The majority found "yes" in all three criteria.


reply posted on 13-6-2004 @ 03:19 PM by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Um, this sounds like right wing religious paranoia.

1. The sodomy laws were outdated, no one payed them any mind, until a couple of overzealous cops arested two queers for doing something that shouldnt have been any of the cops biz. The courts were justified in striking down those laws. I dont care if you like or agree with homosexuality (I sure as hell dont) the constitution guarantees thier right to do whatever they want in thier own bedrooms, and it aint none of your biz. Thier life, thier right, so long as they are consenting adults.
2. Executing the mentally retarded is unconstitutional. Just like executing the insane. Retarded people and crazy people are not in full capacity to make descisions on thier own, and are not capable of totally understanding concequence and such. Like Hinkley. He tried to kill Regan, yet we didnt execute him. Why? Cuz hes crazy. He didnt do it in a premeditated caculated act to kill the prez like Lee Harvey Oswald, he did it because he was beyond delusional and thought that killing the prez would cement the relationship he was convinced he had with Jodie Foster. Executing anyone who is crazy or retarded is against the cionstitution. The death penalty should only apply to sociopathic killers in full knowldge of what they do who kill in cold blood for pleasure.

So, I find it hard to see how either of these descisions trump the US constitution. If anything, they defend and strengthen it.

Now, if the US Supreme courts starts bending to the pressure to totally ban the death penalty, or strikes down free speech laws, gun rights, ect, then we have a problem of foreigners trying to but into our biz. But the above descions are very American. So what if they examined international law to do them? hell, they didnt even need to do that. nThere are enough precedents and laws within the US that showed that outlawing sex acts and killing crazy and retarded people is unconstitutional.

OIf they start killing the constitution, then Ill get pissed off and see red. But until then.....
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