Revelation; On an eagle's wings

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch12 vv12-17.

This is the second part of the story of the woman who was "seen in heaven", in the middle of giving birth, at the beginning of the chapter. I was looking at the first part on the attached thread;

Woman in Heaven

I thought the best way of understanding her was to treat her as a figure representing the faithful people.

Now I'm moving on to what happened next, and I'm going to be asking the question; what is the purpose of that flight into the wilderness?

The Psalmist says;
"Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice;
let the sea roar, and all that fills it". (Psalm 96 v11)
All three parts of the created universe will be rejoicing together in praise, when the Lord comes "to judge the world with righteousness".

In Revelation ch12 v12, the heavens are rejoicing already, but the other two parts of the world must wait.
Heaven can rejoice, because the "accuser of the brethren" has been thrown down from it.
(I was looking at this theme in my last thread, on the attached link;

Satan fell from Heaven )

Earth and sea, though, are still in trouble.
It may be the case that Satan's power is now limited, it may be the case that the real source of his power has already been destroyed; but, for exactly that reason, he comes down upon them now with all the proverbial ferocity of the mortally wounded animal.

He shows the ferocity in his pursuit of "the woman", because she's the one who gave birth to the "male-child"- that is, to Christ himself- who inflicted the mortal wound in the fist place.

There are some very pointed similarities between the story of his pursuit and the story of the Exodus.

It begins, of course, with the hostile power- Pharaoh in one case, and the dragon in the other.
In fact, Ezekiel describes Pharaoh as "the great dragon that lies in the midst of his streams". (Ezekiel ch29 v3)

The serpent or dragon pursues the woman by pouring water out of his mouth, in the hope of sweeping her away in the flood.
Similarly, Jeremiah says about the power of Egypt against Judah;
"Egypt rises like the Nile, like rivers whose waters surge.
He said, I will rise, I will cover the earth,
I will destroy cities and their inhabitants." (Jeremiah ch46 v8)

We're told in Revelation how the earth opens itself up and swallows the river.
Similarly, the Song of Moses says this about what happened to Pharaoh's army;
"Thou didst stretch out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them". (Exodus ch15 v12)

We're told how the woman escapes by being given "the two wings of a great eagle".
Similarly, this is how the Lord sums up the whole Exodus experience, when he speaks to Moses at Sinai;
"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I lifted you up on eagles' wings and brought you to myself". (Exodus ch19 v4)

The final similarity, of course, is the culmination of both episodes in a successful escape into the wilderness, where the people will be "nourished" by their God.

There's a clear message in these parallels;
That God's people should be expecting to be oppressed- perhaps to the point of possible extinction- by hostility in a place of power, as at the time of the Exodus.
But that God himself will be able to preserve them by his own power- as at the time of the Exodus.

The woman is going to be nourished in the wilderness "for a time, times, and half a time".
Much debate has gone into trying to identify that period.
This is not the time for me to enter that particular debate, so I'm going to content myself with a summary of what seems to be generally agreed;

That the phrase is intended to be understood as a total- "Three and a half times".
That the phrase refers back to the angel's declaration in Daniel ch12 v7 (where he's describing the time which remains before "the end of these wonders", the time during which the "holy people" would remain powerless).
And that this should be identified with the statement in Daniel ch9 v27, that "the prince who is to come" would be at war with God's worship for "half a week"- i.e., "three and a half days".

In other words. the concealment of God's people "in the wilderness" is understood to coincide with the hostility of that last, great, powerful ruler.

So, coming back to my original question, what's the purpose of that flight into the wilderness?

The most obvious answer, as in the Exodus parallel, is that God's people need to escape from the power of the oppressor. The church has to go "underground", as we would probably say nowadays. The persecuting power cannot grasp the church as a body, and can only seize upon the individuals who attract its attention ("the rest of her offspring").

However, there's another possible angle which may be worth considering.

Hosea ch2 contains a complaint, from the Lord, that his people Israel- his "wife"- have not been faithful to him in the land which he gave them. They've been learning corruption, and injustice, and idolatry. he proposes, therefore, to take their comforts away from them;
"I will put an end to all her mirth, her feats, her new moons, and all her appointed feasts".
And then he plans to take her into the wilderness, in order to complete the cleansing process, and to make it possible to renew the relationship;
"And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt". (Hosea ch2 vv11-15)

There is the possibility that something similar could be happening when the "woman" in Revelation ch12 is "taken into the wilderness". She too, perhaps, might have developed corrupt and idolatrous ways. She, too, perhaps,might benefit from an experience which would take her away from her comforts and temptations, and force her to focus once more on the essence of her relationship with God.

(I was addressing a similar question in one of my previous threads;

Ch6- The sins of the Church? )

But there is one more purpose which must not be forgotten.
The final purpose of Israel's period "in the wilderness", in the days of Moses, was that it was a time of preparation for their entrance into the Promised land.










[edit on 4-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

I like your thinking...

Over the next few days I'll have to PM you some thoughts of mine in relation to this thread.

Very well thought out though.

reply to post by dampnickers

Thank you for your comments.
I'll look forward to your PM's.
I should warn you though, that I shall be off on a week's holiday on Sunday morning. I meant to mention it (with a little joke about "flight into the wilderness"), and completely forgot.



[edit on 4-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI

I just want to add that the next thread in the series will probably be on the "7 letters".
Discussion of the Beast will be postponed until after then.

just support for your thread.

i think that the whore of babylon could be the same as the woman too.

it makes sense, the flight in the wilderness where she becomes unfaithful

she has maybe 3 and half years to remember and to prepare her flesh body to be destroyed and spiritually make herself ready as a bride.

if she doesn't remember she'll end up taking the cup without mixture instead of a lesser judgement.

Originally posted by iamnot
i think that the whore of babylon could be the same as the woman too.
it makes sense, the flight in the wilderness where she becomes unfaithful

I can't really see it that way, because I think being "nourished by God in the wilderness" involves spiritual protection as much as physical protection. Perhaps even more than physical protection. I believe she is secure from being overcome by the dragon in any sense.
Note the implied reference to Hosea, where the wilderness is the place where the people restore their relationship with God.

I would rather see the woman and the Harlot as twin sisters with opposing characters. Since the Harlot would surely be recruited from amongst those calling themselves the people of God, it might not be easy on the ground to see the distinction between the two. But there would certainly be a "remnant" which would not succumb, and I think the "woman" in this chapter relates to the remnant.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

you ask why does the woman flee (is carried into the clouds?) into the wilderness...


fundamentally because of these verses:

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

count the 70 weeks...
the messiah presents himself and gets 'cut-off' [=i guess that meant cruicified=] at the 62nd week of Daniel...
so from 32AD until the beginning of the 70th week... there will be an undetermined ammount of years,
those years must produce many more martyrs, and winnow out the sinners from their trials in the wilderness- just like the 40 years of wandering in the Exodus to allow all those who worshiped Baal/golden calf while Moses was away from the groups of tribes....to die in the desert and not enter the 'Holy Land'
...but all the 12 tribes survivors did enter the 'promised land'



Also, remember the elders around the throne of God asked how long will it be (to the end of these vials/bowls/7plagues/Seals/Trumpets)...
& God said until the blood of Martyrs has been satisified/ filled...

which implies that the woman in the wilderness is different than the Church or Christianianity or old Torah
because the Woman is cared for for only 1260 days.
but the saints and martyrs are steadily dying during the reign of Tribulation
and during the Final 3 1/2 year (1260 days) of 'Great Tribulation'


just thinking out loud, thanks

Originally posted by St Udio
Also, remember the elders around the throne of God asked how long will it be (to the end of these vials/bowls/7plagues/Seals/Trumpets)...
& God said until the blood of Martyrs has been satisified/ filled...

I think you're remembering the question of the martyrs "under the altar" mentioned at the fifth seal. They get told that they must be joined by a further set of martyrs.

Yes, these first martyrs can be taken as all those previous to the final crisis.
A private theory which rather appeals to me is that they represent a "penultimate" persecution immediately before the events of ch6. In my ch6 threads, I call this hypothetical event the "implied background" of ch6.

Either way, I take it that the events of ch6 are God's reaction to said persecution, whether it is recent or long-term.

They are not the church .

The Angels proclaim DO NOT TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST and DECLARE the name of the Lord (JESUS) to the world (right before this)(Midpoint of the trib)..and these are the called out ones from the natural branch (remnant of her seed (Her as in the divorced rejected unfaithful wife ) ..Natural Israel ..the remnant of the natural branch who gets called back in to the Lord...

Look up WILDERNESS
1) solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited
a) used of places
1) a desert, wilderness
2) deserted places, lonely regions
3) an uncultivated region fit for pasturage
b) used of persons
1) deserted by others
2) deprived of the aid and protection of others, especially of friends, acquaintances, kindred
3) bereft
a) of a flock deserted by the shepherd
b) of a woman neglected by her husband, from whom the husband withholds himself

www.blueletterbible.org...

They GET NOURISHED (The Church (the faithful anyway) should have already been nourished and nurtured by the Lord during their entire walk with the Lord so this cant be them ) .........
1) to nourish, support
2) feed
3) to give suck, to fatten
4) to bring up, nurture

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall THY (DANIELS PEOPLE)people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.

Daniel is of the TRIBE OF DAN ...If you will notice DAN Is not mentioned in the 144,000 ......(the 144,000 are sealed already way before this they are seen in HEAVEN with the Lord already PRIOR TO the midtrib) ....So this woman who goes into the wilderness cant be the 144,000 ...

Dan is mentioned in the thousand year reign (so he did not get left out)

6. In the Book of Ezekiel (48;1) it says concerning the future
apportionment of the Promised Land amongst the Israelite Tribes,

"From the north end to the coast ..as one goes to Hamath...the
border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath..a portion for Dan".

This verse according to Commentaries indicates that Dan is
destined to receive a portion stretching beyond Hamath (Antiochea on the
Orontes) and into the region northward of it. This Millenial Promise seems
to have had an historical precedent.

"Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan
shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that bites the horse's
heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. I wait for thy salvation, O
LORD" (Genesis 49;16 17).


Ephriam is another tribe that is not listed in the 144,000 ...Ephraim may be among the wilderness group too (I am not sure have not done enough studying into this)


Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deu 4:31 (For the LORD thy God [is] a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.


Anyway I believe it is the NATURAL BRANCHES (outside of the 144,000) that go into the wilderness to LEARN OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ....and this is why the word says AND ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED .......Prior to his coming ..these are the last of the mohicans to come in ..the Natural branches that need to be grafted back in ........before his coming ..

Disraeli, like your namesake, you work tirelessly to promote understanding and the evolution of our understanding as well.

As always, I'm blessed and enlightened, even encouraged, by the many excellent investigations and examinations of the events of now and the events of "then" as they are coming clearer and more obvious.

I will withhold my comments for now, as the journey of understanding is better shared, and will validate itself according to the Holy Spirit, which is teaching us all things.

Please, everyone, continue...? and thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Disraeli, I tend to agree with your reading, because of the constant comparisons between the two different women, the faithful example set by God's expectations of Israel, and the unfaithful, which would be best understood by understanding what the faithful one is.

The harlot would have to be the one that has no interest in these things. One that should be honorable but has chosen not to. She could not be considered a harlot if there were no standards in place, therefore she must be the rebellious, whoever that may be.

Again, thanks for the civil and earnest discussion. Surely we will continue to find wisdom, since we know that God wants us to understand.

A harlot, for example, could not be defined as such unless there was a comparative state already understood, meaning the state of honor in marriage. Therefore, the bride must (whether she is perfect or not) be the original family and all who have been grafted in as believers.

This, by definition, illustrates and exposes the harlot as one who is in direct conflict with a cooperative and honorable relationship with God.

We can't find the bride because we look for perfection. If we understand "her" to be imperfect, a lot more understanding can open up.

No bride is a perfect wife at first, but that does not preclude a happy relationship as she grows into the partner she can become.

reply to post by DISRAELI


when the Lord comes "to judge the world with righteousness".
the faithful people.
Pay attention people!
The lord is unconditional love!...... God all that is does not judge and has no knowledge of righteousness.
However inexperienced, rude of ignorance, people do! Someone has used freewill in transprescribing the Lord in this physical mannerism of human qualities of less than!

The Faithful people 'Yee have little faith' spoken by Jesus many times!
Yee have little "trust" in the Lord. The faithful people are the trusting people in the Lord. The Lord is Unconditional In Love

Resistace is futile when the Lord speaks No person shall resist the Lord.
Religion really needs to upgrade there views of the Lord represented in the bibles

reply to post by Copperflower

Thank you for those encouraging comments.
I like the way you compare the two women.
Revelation's Harlot is a very complicated individual, and I can already see that I shall have to spend at least four threads getting to grips with different aspects of her.

But the next topic is the Mark, so I shall have to leave these threads shortly and sort that one out.
It's a pleasure to hear from you.

reply to post by mr20121221

Thank you for that contribution.
I shall have to go away fairly soon to look after another thread, but I'll come back later tonight, try to work out what you're talking about, and then give a response.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch12 vv12-17.

This is the second part of the story of the woman who was "seen in heaven", in the middle of giving birth, at the beginning of the chapter. I was looking at the first part on the attached thread;

Woman in Heaven

I thought the best way of understanding her was to treat her as a figure representing the faithful people.

Hello again DISRAELI. I think the best way of understanding her is from a comparative cross-cultural approach. From the perspective of comparative mythology, a woman "seen in heaven" is a goddess, right? I was wondering, would such an approach offend you too much for you to consider in depth?

I think there is a Goddess of the Bible, and a God of the Bible. She is mentioned in Proverbs 9. I think she has multiple aspects, just as God does. She can be interacted with, just as God is interacted with. From a comparative mythology approach, it is clear that she is a manifestation of a universal archetype, just as God is.

Sophia: Exile and Return

ABSTRACT

Sophia personifies wisdom, an ancient tradition concerned with integrity in the marketplace, politics, and royal court. Because the teachings were rooted in life instead of doctrine, Sophia became problematical and excluded from the religious formulations of monotheism. This manuscript is about exile--Sophia's and our own. I compare Sophia's exile from mainstream religion to the alienation suffered by modern individuals who experience loss, betrayal, and abandonment. What is exiled in today's dysfunctional paradigm is the vital soul, the genius or daemon. When we pay attention to it by taking our life seriously--as a mode of knowledge--we awaken its fire. The vital expresses the integrity and intelligence of the life force, whose awakening turns exile into home--revealing Sophia to be not divine but the source of divine images--the human psyche.

While Sophia has been interpreted as divine, goddess or psychological image, she is examined here from several unique perspectives. First, Sophia is developed from the context of modern life and real people, but in conversation with the historical and mythological. Second, the dark side is confronted through analysis of Sophia's "Other" faces, Lilith and Hecate, locating it as the source of individual power and knowledge. Third, it provides modern women with an image of female power that is not based solely on reproduction and mothering but on another aspect of the feminine archetype rarely discussed--the intelligence and cosmic power of the life force. Finally, it introduces the "path of crumbs" which encourages women to direct their own life through recognition of the guidance present in circumstances.



[edit on 1-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
They GET NOURISHED (The Church (the faithful anyway) should have already been nourished and nurtured by the Lord during their entire walk with the Lord so this cant be them ) .........

I'm not sure I can see a good reason why they can't continue to receive nourishment, just because they've been receiving nourishment previuosly.
It seems to me that you may be missing the force of the Exodus parallel.
In Exodus, God's people escaped danger, and then God continued to protect them by not allowing them to starve.
Surely, similarly, it's the same point here. God saves his people from the danger of the dragon and then continues to protect them

reply to post by Student X

I'm content with the way I treated her in the "woman in heaven" thread itself, ie as a someone representing God's people.
That seems to be the Bible's way of elevating feminity- identifying the worshipping community as feminine in relation to God.
As far as worship is concerned, gender is not strictly relevant, but worshipping anything less than the Creator would be in danger of being idolatrous.
I think what you need to bear in mind is that it is not a question of us deciding what kind of God we want to worship because one kind suits our psyche better.
The whole premise of the Bible is that Absolute Reality (as Toynbee puts it) is telling us what it is like, and our task is to take that on board.



[edit on 1-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Disraeli ...I believe thats what will happen to the NATURAL BRANCH .
Those saved under his grace (Gentile era or age of Grace)not much was expected of them (they were invited guests) but the called and chosen (Gods Elect natural branches) were called as a holy Priesthood and they did not do what they were called to do (neither has most christians at least in our times so they may be in this group too) and to whom much is given much is required ....the last will be first (Gentiles and those called from the highways and byways) and the first will be last (the natural branches ) (they come in last since they rejected the Lord the first time) ........

Originally posted by mr20121221
Someone has used freewill in transprescribing the Lord in this physical mannerism of human qualities of less than!

Thank you for that contribution.
Could you explain what you mean by this sentence?

As always great post DISRAELI S&F...In my christian experience I find myself secluded in a type of wilderness, given time to reflect and to feed upon the word ..I guess I am like a kid, going kicking and screaming the whole way to a time out . peace