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Russia plans to develop 5th-Generation Stealth Helicopters

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posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 08:08 PM
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Although this article is dated last month, this is the first I had seen anything about it. It looks like the Russian manufacturers are trying to get the Russian government to fund their projects. Would a stealth helo even be feasible? I do know that Global Security mentions the US testing one at Groom Lake, and that the now canceled Commanche had some stealth capabilities, but it does seem like it would be a challenge for a helo.

RIA Novosti


A Russian helicopter company is planning to develop the world's first fifth-generation combat helicopter, which experts say would be able to attack fighter jets and be invisible for radars, the Gazeta daily said on Thursday.

"We are working on the concept of the fifth-generation combat helicopter," the paper quoted the company's CEO, Andrei Shibitov, as saying at a news conference in Moscow.

Shibitov did not specify the characteristics of the helicopter, but said the company was going to spend some $1 billion on the project, with more investment expected to be allocated from the state budget.

The official said the Mil design bureau had been working on a classical rotor model, which features a large main rotor and a smaller auxiliary rotor, while the Kamov design bureau had been developing a coaxial rotor model.

Military experts believe that the coaxial rotor model is more stable and easy to fly while the classical model is more reliable and has a higher degree of survivability on the battlefield.

First deputy head of the Russian Academy of Geopolitical Issues, Konstantin Sivkov, told the paper that fifth-generation combat helicopters have never been built before, although the United States has recently begun working on a similar project.

He said a fifth-generation combat helicopter must have a low radar signature, a high noise reduction, an extended flying range, be equipped with a computerized arms control system, be able to combat fighter jets (existing helicopters are generally only intended to hit ground-based targets) and reach a speed of up to 500-600 km/h (310-370 mph).

The project cannot proceed, however, unless it is backed by the government.

"If the government does not sign a contract, the idea will die on the vine," head of the Russian Academy of Geopolitical Issues Leonid Ivashov told Gazeta.

Ivashov said that with sufficient investment and good organization the new helicopter could be built within five years. Otherwise, the project may drag on for 20-30 years.

But he was somewhat skeptical about the chances of carrying out the project.

"We have been trying to tackle everything - fifth-generation planes, fifth-generation helicopters, but nothing of this have so far been supplied to the army - today the army still uses helicopters produced in 1970s," Ivashov said.

Russia's main combat helicopter, the Mi-24 Hind, is a third-generation helicopter, and a few Mi-28 Havoc, Ka-50 and Ka-52 Hokum, which have just started to arrive in the Russian army, are fourth-generation helicopters.

MOSCOW, May 13 (RIA Novosti)




posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 08:14 PM
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Will this be anything like Russia's "5th generation" fighter jet? Which is more like a 4.5? They've been testing a new jet too, but it still has old systems all the way up and down, making it years and years away from production of a true Russian 5th generation fighter.

Also does anyone know if Rotor blades show up on radar? I've got to believe they don't or don't show up well if a stealth helicopter is even possible.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by thedarklingthrush
Will this be anything like Russia's "5th generation" fighter jet? Which is more like a 4.5? They've been testing a new jet too, but it still has old systems all the way up and down, making it years and years away from production of a true Russian 5th generation fighter.


And your opinion is based on what, exactly? In what way is the PAK-FA not going to be a 5th Generation aircraft?



Also does anyone know if Rotor blades show up on radar? I've got to believe they don't or don't show up well if a stealth helicopter is even possible.


The rotor blades are just like any other surface, and can be managed shape wise to produce a low observability profile.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by thedarklingthrush
 





Russia's "5th generation" fighter jet? Which is more like a 4.5?


For a new plane, I would have thought anything that couldn't match or exceed the F-22 would be a pointless exercise.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by RichardPrice
 


At this point its just a new airframe. Everything else is 4th generation technology. Russia is currently looking at foreign contractors to help develop the other systems

www.weeklystandard.com...

There's an article about it. It's basically where the F-22 was 15 years ago and seeing that it's Russia we will probably see the complete T-50 in about 20 years.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by thedarklingthrush
reply to post by RichardPrice
 


At this point its just a new airframe. Everything else is 4th generation technology. Russia is currently looking at foreign contractors to help develop the other systems

www.weeklystandard.com...

There's an article about it. It's basically where the F-22 was 15 years ago and seeing that it's Russia we will probably see the complete T-50 in about 20 years.


That article is 18 months old, when nothing was known about the PAK-FA - no one outside of the program was even certain what it looked like until it flew for the first time.

There is also nothing in that article which actually supports your position - all they say in that article is that systems may not be ready for the first flight, and development is underway.

Also, its worth noting that the F-22 was in the same position - none of the final systems were finalised before the first flight of the prototype (not the YF-22, the actual production prototype), and a further $8billion is required to upgrade all produced F-22s to the original spec.



[edit on 4/6/2010 by RichardPrice]



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by RichardPrice

Originally posted by thedarklingthrush
reply to post by RichardPrice
 


At this point its just a new airframe. Everything else is 4th generation technology. Russia is currently looking at foreign contractors to help develop the other systems

www.weeklystandard.com...

There's an article about it. It's basically where the F-22 was 15 years ago and seeing that it's Russia we will probably see the complete T-50 in about 20 years.


That article is 18 months old, when nothing was known about the PAK-FA - no one outside of the program was even certain what it looked like until it flew for the first time.

There is also nothing in that article which actually supports your position - all they say in that article is that systems may not be ready for the first flight, and development is underway.


It's the most reliable up to date information on the subject.

I also think its just a pretty good case that Russia can't domestically match the capabilities of what a 5th generation fighter should be. (I am saying it should match the f-22)

It flew without new systems.

If you're gonna bash my information why don't you post some yourself all I see is you claiming I'm wrong with no proof. Why don't you tell me why I'm wrong?



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by thedarklingthrush

It's the most reliable up to date information on the subject.


And all that means, in reality, is nothing. Secret programs do not post detailed status reports.



I also think its just a pretty good case that Russia can't domestically match the capabilities of what a 5th generation fighter should be. (I am saying it should match the f-22)

It flew without new systems.


Thats your evidence? It didn't fly with them from the start, so Russia cannot do it? Pitifull really.



If you're gonna bash my information why don't you post some yourself all I see is you claiming I'm wrong with no proof. Why don't you tell me why I'm wrong?


I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying you are relying on unreliable sources of data and your own opinions, and I am saying that that is a mistake. You have dismissed the PAK-FA out of hand on the basis of some very questionable information.

A rebuttal does not need evidence of the opposite, it just needs valid arguments as to why your position is faulty.

Take a look at where the F-22 program was when the first production prototype flew, and you will see that it is pretty much in the same position as the PAK-FA is today - a position which you are claiming is evidence of incapability.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 08:41 AM
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When I came across the article in the OP, I thought it interesting that stealth technology was being seriously pursued in helicopters and not just in fixed wing aircraft. The only helo that I had heard of with any stealth components before this was in the Commanche, and that project was scrapped. I had no intention of this turning into an F-22 or T-50 thread.

I am still looking to see if I can locate anything else on stealth helos, but so far I'm coming up empty. Maybe someone here has some information on this they can share.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by Wayne60
When I came across the article in the OP, I thought it interesting that stealth technology was being seriously pursued in helicopters and not just in fixed wing aircraft. The only helo that I had heard of with any stealth components before this was in the Commanche, and that project was scrapped. I had no intention of this turning into an F-22 or T-50 thread.

I am still looking to see if I can locate anything else on stealth helos, but so far I'm coming up empty. Maybe someone here has some information on this they can share.


Stealth is one of those things that will be built into every single military airframe from now on, regardless of what it is (transport, fighter, bomber, recon, helicopter), whenever possible. The only time it will be excluded from design considerations is when the inclusion of stealth is to the detriment of the primary task and not just a minor compromise.

With helicopters, this extends to the rotors, which are not as easy as other aspects but can still be dealt with to lower the observability - either through managing the shapes, radar obsorbant materials, or even radar transparent materials. Shroud the rotor hub in the same way we shroud jet engine faces these days etc.



posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by RichardPrice
 


I agree, to think that the russians have not really thought about whats needed to match the F22 is just silly. Look at the T10 - Su27 series of aircraft. T10 not good enough but then some rework and..... One of the best selling heavy jets in an long time.



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 04:53 AM
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A triditional helicopter will never be stealth due to that large areaed rotal blades espacially when it is rotating. Stealth is noe of issue US did it good even best, but they also got failure of Commanche.

If you want to a helicopter, nobody will dispute, you also can make it better, but you do it stealth, please think some way else.



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by emile
A triditional helicopter will never be stealth due to that large areaed rotal blades espacially when it is rotating. Stealth is noe of issue US did it good even best, but they also got failure of Commanche.

If you want to a helicopter, nobody will dispute, you also can make it better, but you do it stealth, please think some way else.


The Commanche was a failure because it cost too much and delivered too little - the entire job of the Commanche was taken over by the Apache before the Commanche was finished, making it pointless to purchase it.

Commanche was not a failure because of stealth, it failed because its niche disappeared.



posted on Jun, 5 2010 @ 08:18 AM
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Yeah, the Russians seems to love their heavy gunships, and putting some stealth on them will such stroke that big macho gunship ego of theirs


Imagine a stealthy Hind


Rambo won't be able to arrow them down anymore!



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 01:07 PM
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about time the russians developed a new helicopter but the hind is a classic



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 02:42 AM
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Here is a model of the Kamov-58 concept that's been floating around for awhile, apparently their original idea of a stealth chopper



I think Russia should focus on producing some T-50s and T-95 tanks; Ka-50 and Mi-28 are both very capable combat helicopters today.



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