I will answer any question regarding meditation or enlightenment/nirvana

reply to post by unityemissions


Perhaps the people you describe are not examples of enlightened individuals?
Perhaps some people are more easily manipulated than others?
The pursuit of enlightenment may be a fool’s dream but many wise men pursue it too, or are they just fools in disguise?
What is enlightenment? Is it the sound of one hand clapping?
Is it the dissolution of the illusion of duality?
Do we have to lose ourselves or find ourselves?
Or is it somewhere in between?
Why not just observe yourself?
You may surprise yourself!

Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Perhaps the people you describe are not examples of enlightened individuals?

Or perhaps "enlightened" individuals are just narcissists in denial . . .

Perhaps some people are more easily manipulated than others?

We both know this is true, but how could manipulation be condoned by such a spiritual person

The pursuit of enlightenment may be a fool’s dream but many wise men pursue it too, or are they just fools in disguise?

I vote for mentally deranged in one way or another. Another option is that they are intellectually wise, but emotionally retarded. This retardation keeps the slaves from seeing the apparent truth (the deceit) of their "masters". Whatever we focus on expands. Conditioning oneself to believe anything over and over again will certainly show some result of another.

What is enlightenment? Is it the sound of one hand clapping?
Is it the dissolution of the illusion of duality?

Enlightenment is the ultimate form of denial.

Do we have to lose ourselves or find ourselves?

If I lose a shoe, it's gone. Not sure how losing a shoe will help me to find my shoe. If I find the shoe, it's no longer lost. So...ya lost me.

Or is it somewhere in between?
Why not just observe yourself?
You may surprise yourself!

I'm highly aware of myself from an outside view at all times. It's as if I'm taking a birds view of the room in which I'm in.

reply to post by unityemissions


Sometimes my questions are rhetorical, or whimsical, or even an attempt to push in a particular direction! Can you see where I am going with paradox, self observation and the exact oppositeness of things?
I cannot make a judgment on the enlightenment of others, how can I say how an enlightened individual should or shouldn’t act?
If enlightenment is the ultimate form of denial can it not lead to the ultimate affirmation?
Are you ‘highly’ aware of yourself at all times? How then does this sit with your own duality? Are you the observer or the observed, or are you both?

Originally posted by Novise
reply to post by filosophia

 

So the idea of reincarnation was already in the minds of the east before he arrived, and he had to work within that structure? So he used it to relate his teachings, not as a teaching in itself?

To call someone a reincarnation of a Lama, I would think simply means that is a person who is understanding and at one and very talented with that particular Lama's teachings. Teacher and teaching are one.

Yet they find these reincarnations at early ages. Maybe there is some way to explain this, a method that allows them insight to the person.

But at the end of the day I find it really hard to believe they (Including the Buddha) all think our spirits are particular and that they hold some literal past-life history. Buddha taught no-Atman, and yet he believed in reincarnation?

According to legend, the Buddha had a previous life as a royal prince that sacrificed himself so a tiger could get a meal, as well as a preacher of patience, and before all those, as a disciple meeting a former Buddha.

Reincarnation, while a Hindu belief, was always meant to be seen as the problem, not the solution. The Buddha taught the way to the end of suffering, which in no way contradicts the Upanishads. It is a misconception to say that the Buddha taught a no-atman philosophy (www.attan.com). Rather, the Buddha taught that all things are no-atman, big difference. The Buddha refrained from speaking directly about the Atman because he said it be the result of perpetual or nihilistic thinking, in other words, since the Self can not be explained, he did not try to explain it. The Buddha famously declined to talk about the origin of the universe, rather, he taught about the origin of suffering and its cure.

Reincarnation makes sense if you think of it as things reincarnating in the material world. Thus Nature becomes the Soul that reincarnates, not necessarily individual lives. The individual lives could be seen as just a step along the journey: namely disciple, Bodhisattva, Buddha.

Originally posted by Dr Expired
reply to post by filosophia

 

Yes letting go what a beautiful thought.

Just to let go.

The shadow if only I could be free.

Letting go of the mind's constant thoughts, even letting go of the need to comprehend what is going on.

Meditate and teach yourself enlightenment. You inherently know your true nature, all you have to do is realize it.

Originally posted by sidewayszombie
OP, do you have much experience with the mahayana sutras? I think your philosophy might benefit from reading up on the bodhisattva thing.
If buddhism's purpose is only to remove your own suffering then when you dispose of the raft I think you might find your fire is giving off a lot of smoke.
If there is only one soul, how could you comfortably rest in nirvana knowing there are still suffering beings which are fundamentally you?
Might get rid of your boredom if there were infinite sentient beings to help.

A good place to start would be the koan of baizhang and the fox. Earlier you said something about how upon achieving a certain something one is beyond the sutras which is why I mention that case.

I'm also a little confused about how you mention pushing thoughts up and seeing light and stuff. This is clearly still playing around with the skandhas and kinda sounds like a temporal lobe seizure. I won't argue that seeing light internally can be an auspicious signal, but I'm pretty sure it is bad form(har har) to share your own pleasurable samsaric personal experiences as a goal to forcefully attempt.
Meditation is good practice for a lot of things but you can also clean up the mind and body, cultivate virtue(including wisdom) and get the same good feelings you get from meditation by being nice to a homeless person, even if you're totally entangled in and bewildered by the skandhas while you do it. What is going on there?

Finally, I'd like to hear more specifically about what enlightenment is and if you think you've got it because that is an enormous claim as I'm sure you know. Your use of the word 'state' more than once left me a little confused so I'd like to hear more.

All I can tell you is that while I'm still on the journey of life, I have learned all that I need to learn from the mystical religions. Further study is detrimental and the only reason I teach it is for others to gain from it and to strengthen my mind. I create my own scriptures, that is how I see the process, and I encourage everyone else to do the same. There is no better way than to teach yourself.

As for the metaphysical descriptions of light, I have a few more:

Open up your mind and experience the light within it.
Go from sense objects to mind, from mind to ego, and from ego to Self.
Imagine yourself as separate and external to all things, then turn your vision inward upon this and behold the majestic beauty.

These are exercises, nothing more. Whether or not they enter into samsara is not important so long as their intent is to transcend samsara. What is wrong with pleasure? If you can experience pleasure in samsara, then it is a temporary relief. Knowing that everything is bad is holding an a priori view of the world, whereas understanding the world is taking an active engagement with the world. Why would you want to be like a rock statue?

reply to post by godddd


Control does not mean to suppress, it could also mean to create. We are all destined to be gods. That is the Platonic truth. Our aim is the Good, and by participating in the Good we become Gods.

Originally posted by unityemissions
I got a question for ya.

Why is it that a good chunk of these "enlightened beings" end up being psychopaths? I've heard numerous accounts of these fools conning people for sex, drugs, money, etc, etc.. Why are there so many pedophiles who are "enlightened".

Could it be that it's because enlightenment is a fools dream, and the con-artist uses this knowledge to their advantage?!

Sai Baba the Pedophile





[edit on 5-6-2010 by unityemissions]

If it is a good leader, It's more than likely that the cult leader is set up by the government for assassination. They said the same about Jesus, that he was a psychopath.

However, Jones town. Heaven's gate, they do not describe the Self, they describe transporting away in some alien space craft. That is escapism, a fool's paradise, But Reality is the only thing that is real. So the only question remains is, if Reality is the only thing that exists, how do you exist as a human?

Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by unityemissions

 

Sometimes my questions are rhetorical, or whimsical, or even an attempt to push in a particular direction! Can you see where I am going with paradox, self observation and the exact oppositeness of things?
I cannot make a judgment on the enlightenment of others, how can I say how an enlightened individual should or shouldn’t act?
If enlightenment is the ultimate form of denial can it not lead to the ultimate affirmation?
Are you ‘highly’ aware of yourself at all times? How then does this sit with your own duality? Are you the observer or the observed, or are you both?

I am aware that my Self is beyond my body. Any type of heightened reflexes that comes of this has to do with the fact that meditation can make your concentration stronger and this may help with learning new things, or having intelligence. Using this intelligence to understand the impermanent nature of life compared to the eternal nature of the divine, it makes us desire the Transcendent more so than material objects. There is no cause to the Eternal, it just exists, it is Reality. So how is it that we exist? We exist as an illusion. A spectacle of our own minds. But we have feelings. Thus it is not just mental, but rather it is outside the eternal reality but yet existing at the same time, which must mean it is within the eternal reality, so that all things are part of the reality.

That is the kind of awareness that's good.

reply to post by unityemissions

Hi,
A few times in this thread one question continues to pop up, "What is Enlightenment"

From all the replies I can see some consider it based on Eastern Beliefs, some consider it a waste and some consider it a goal.

And yet nowhere as yet has a solid definition been offered from anyone's direct experience of it.

So to rectify that here's my 2 cents..

Unless one has had an initial Enlightenment Experience, the Oneness with/AS the Universe, then one may not be able to answer effectively.

In simple terms Enlightenment enables human beings to "open up" to more Light at will, and thus more Insight, more Empathy, More Understanding and more Memory.

I know the Be NOW people will want to argue over this, as may the Belief-System Followers.. but we must recognise that we are observing from a very small window on Reality and so we normally don't see the bigger pictures that show us what we think is only one part of the whole.

Enlightenment is not like a Trophy you earn and will always hold.

It is something that can be experienced initially, but after the change it brings about within the human being it becomes something to be worked with and at in every moment.

It is so because Enlightenment not only does what is stated above, it also brings with it access to incredible energy/power and Responsibility.

And yes it can in a worst case scenario burn you out.

Maintaining focus in the Now is one part of the equation of Awareness. Becoming the huge and powerful soul that you naturally are, but here in the physical, by putting in some effort to grow through direct experience is another part of the equation.

No one path has the answer because there is not one path to Enlightenment.

People want to argue over what is the right approach, over what path brings results, and yet all do not see that they are already limiting themselves by shutting off to any other possibility.

Focusing on Now helps bring Self-Mastery.

Focusing on Awakening brings Soul levels of Awareness when done with simple methods that work well.

Combine the two apparently separate paths and become the awesome, fully aware human being that you are here to be.

Any path to Enlightenment is not for all people in this timeframe we are in because most have no real understanding of it, do not see the value of it, or are already closed off to it because they Believe they Know Better via there Belief-System they are attached to.

Lastly, I hope I have not offended anyone by speaking so openly.

Enlightenment is when you experience some kind of positive feeling through meditation. True Enlightenment is being a perfect being, like a God or Buddha. That may not be possible in this moment, but it is possible to contemplate perfect enlightenment.

For every word, there can be a higher and a lower, thus a Self which is immortal or a self which is mortal. This is done purely as a device to better explain metaphysics. There's nothing more to it than clarity and simplicity.

So, the true Self is beyond the body, which is what we call our selves. The self is conscious, aware of material objects, but the Self is Consciousness, which is Self-Aware of Itself and nothing else.




[edit on 5-6-2010 by filosophia]

reply to post by filosophia


That is a very satisfactory answer to me.

But let me expand on this:

"Reincarnation makes sense if you think of it as things reincarnating in the material world. Thus Nature becomes the Soul that reincarnates, not necessarily individual lives. The individual lives could be seen as just a step along the journey: namely disciple, Bodhisattva, Buddha."

This is EXACTLY how I look into into it. Yet like you say the Buddha does talk about his past life as a prince, and also his past life with Yasodhara his wife, his past life as animals, all kinds of things. He is saying "i had this past life," and I use a lowercase i there on purpose. He's not once implying on any level that that these lives were experienced by the great self, or shared by the collective conscious, or all beings. He is saying one person has one path of past lives and another person has a different string of them! I am saying the past lives do not belong to anyone, who is the anyone? Who is the person they belong to? That is undefinable, there is no self in those terms, on that level. All past lives belong to All.

His past lives as animals also are simply unbelievable, literally impossible. Trees that can see, deer that can communicate with squirrels, etc. I'm just led to believe he used these to make examples, (especially when teaching children) and was not speaking literally.

Almost everything else in Buddhism makes common sense, rational, scientific almost and then this happens!

Like you said his explanation for the self and the universe do make sense. Nothing can be explained by our conceptions and labels we put on them. Not really because we are stupid, limited or cannot grasp the greatness of almighty God, its because it just "Is what it is."

REPLY TO Tayesin: Thanks for that reply, there is nowhere in that post that could be called a ramble. Very well thought out and I really felt like you got the gist of what I was implying, thanks for answering and understanding where I was coming from.

[edit on 5-6-2010 by Novise]

reply to post by Novise


Reincarnation does make sense in a metaphysical sense where the body is temporal, the soul is eternal, and so the mind is that which is between body and soul. The only problem is where does the mind come from given the two states of body and soul. It must be the power of the soul upon the body. If that is the case, the soul creates the body, but then where does the body exist? It would have to exist in the soul, but then where does the personality come from? The personality must also come from the Soul, but being also within the soul, so it seems like it is impossible to explain both the soul and the body, but then how does one explain the fact that they are in control of their body? I am choosing to rationalize the answer, but I could stop at any moment. It is clear then that the Will has either the power to attach to an already functioning Nature or to release itself from it. So if you explain it through fate and free will, we can not escape Fate, but we can use our free will to realize the totality rather than the parts. That Totality is the Soul.

reply to post by filosophia


So what does control create? the cattle of guru?
In the mind it does not create anything but only surpress the desires and pleasures.

Some desire succes and money, it provides a form of freedom in the world we live in.
Others desire enlightenment or wisdom, gaining eternal knowledge.
I wonder, what is the difference? both are desires in the ego but the objects vary.
How can we become gods? when a god is just an idea or theory in the human mind.
Can you clarify the human god?
I know i have godddd as name at ATS but its just a name, nothing more


[edit on 5-6-2010 by godddd]

reply to post by midicon

Can the pursuit of enlightenment be likened to a puppy dog chasing its tail?

hello Midicon yes from my experience it can!

Im really beginning to think enlightenment comes only when we stop seeking it so.

Peace MG

[edit on 5-6-2010 by Mr Green]

reply to post by Tayesin


Enlightenment is harmony,

Where is harmony taking you? Are you being pushed in a certain direction? That direction is probably enlightenment.

Okay, I'm not quite sure if you will be able to answer this, but i have wondered for quite a while and didn't know where to go to ask. I have scoliosis and have had spine surgery to correct it. but my back is still quite curved. I know during meditation that you are suppose to keep a straight spine but i am unable to do so do to bone grafts and metal rods. i was wondering if this would hinder my meditation experience or if there are ways to get around the need to keep your spine straight.

reply to post by Nystagmus7


Can you lay on your back? You can meditate like that if you need to. The purpose of a straight spine in meditation is to keep your energy more freely able to travel upwards, and it is the least restrictive of breathing. Depending on how your spine naturally sits, you can always try laying on the floor if that is more comfortable.

Originally posted by godddd
reply to post by filosophia

 

So what does control create? the cattle of guru?
In the mind it does not create anything but only surpress the desires and pleasures.

Some desire succes and money, it provides a form of freedom in the world we live in.
Others desire enlightenment or wisdom, gaining eternal knowledge.
I wonder, what is the difference? both are desires in the ego but the objects vary.
How can we become gods? when a god is just an idea or theory in the human mind.
Can you clarify the human god?
I know i have godddd as name at ATS but its just a name, nothing more

[edit on 5-6-2010 by godddd]

Control can only be possible by something that is itself alone (The Soul) When we speak of control, we mean influencing something by a force. But there is not absolute control. Absolute control is only possible by the Soul's influence on the body.

Cattle of guru? Like disciples? If the guru only teaches transcendence then that benefits the individual not the guru.

Suppression of the desires is the same as not seeking after enlightenment. Turning inward involves a slight trace of desire, such that you purify the majority of your desire. You are still attached to body so there is the desires that arise from that. But specifically, you can start to shatter other myths like money and fame, passing pleasures. Once you can overcome them, then whatever possessions you have you will enjoy more.

Originally posted by filosophia
In case you are wondering, no I am not doing this to brag, I'm doing this because I'm BORED!

Question: What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Answer: Someone who is enlightened but bored.