Legalize Immigration

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Good to you OP...I think you are seeing the only viable option in this whole mess.

But the responses we get see the core of the problem of the "anti illegals" crowd. They will scream that they only have problems with ILLEGAL immigrants...but once you suggest that the only logical way to decrease ILLEGAL immigrants is to allow MORE LEGAL immigration (and I would suggest EASIER and CHEAPER legal immigration)...then the "anti illegal" agenda really comes out because they don't want LEGAL immigrants either.

That's a pretty large brush you are painting with and once again, an unfair and judgmental comment that adds nothing of value to the discussion.

Why is it, that when discussing illegal immigration, you assume a viewpoint on legal immigration?

Do you, in every thread on ATS, cover all aspects of an opinion or do you stick to the topic? Has the question ever been posed to those of us against illegal immigration how we feel about legal immigration?

In another thread, you [incorrectly] assumed that we were only opposed to Mexican immigrants, when not a few posts later, many of us chimed in to say that we feel all borders should be protected 24 hours per day everyday.

You keep trying to turn this into a racist, targeted witch hunt in which the American people don't want "outsiders" in our country.

Let me let you in on a little secret -- there are no protests going on demanding that legal immigration be ceased. There are no movements by the People suggesting that we close all of our borders forever and never let another person in.

Rather, there is the shared belief that we have laws in this country and they need to be followed. Breaking the law is the issue.

Perhaps, before making sweeping judgments, you should pose the question since I for one certainly stick to the topic of the thread and do not bother giving a run down of my opinion on all things related to a subject.

In case you need further clarification, here are my opinions:

1. Illegal immigration is a crime and those guilty should be immediately deported and banned from returning. There is no justification for rewarding those that successfully break our laws.

2. I encourage legal immigration and support all of the programs we have in place that are designed to assist people in acclimating to our country and our culture.

3. We have current Federal laws in place. If people disagree with the current laws, then there are democratic processes in place to work towards amending said law.

4. Until a law is changed, it remains in effect and all persons are subject to the penalties and/or punishments associated with breaking said law.

5. All borders should be protected 24 hours per day. There should be no distinction made between countries of origin.

6. If the Federal government had been doing its part to enforce these laws all along, we would not be faced with the number of illegal immigrants we currently have. This is why the situation has turned into a crisis for many border states.




[edit on 3-6-2010 by lpowell0627]

Originally posted by lpowell0627
In case you need further clarification, here are my opinions:

I'm interested in your opinions on a few things I didn't see addressed.

1. How do we deal with people such as Jessica Colatl? Brought here illegally and involuntarily as a child, then grows to adulthood still without legal citizenship. I know of no known method to achieve citizenship for people in this situation (perhaps there is one and I just don't know of it). How do we accommodate people in such a position.

2. Should we expand our handling capabilities for people coming in so that all potential immigrants can be processed?

My thoughts?

21 responses and zero flags and ONE star.

Take a hint.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Prove_It_NOW]

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
My thoughts?

21 responses and zero flags and ONE star.

Take a hint.

I didn't post this thread for a popularity contest. I have the same frustrations with illegal immigration as any other.

The system currently in place isn't working and expecting the federal government to handle it is naive.

We have situations unable to be handled by current law.

What else can we do to reduce illegal immigration? How about screen more (ideally ALL) of them?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by ChrisF231
We already allow too much legal immigration. There is no need for it anymore, let the Americans have America. This is OUR homeland.

Reduce legal immigration to 100,000 per year, minimum of an associates degree required to even be considered. Only allow those immigrants who can benefit the nation rather then drain the nation.

Okay, let's accept that at face value. How then should we deal with people such as Jessica Colatl who was brought here involuntarily by her parents as a 10 year old child? Should such people be deported or should they be provided an avenue to attain citizenship?

I think that people like Jessica should be allowed to stay, even though I am VERY much against illegal immigration. She had no say in the matter when her parents brought her here and grew up knowing nothing else. I am sure she could pass a citizenship test quite easily with a little time to study. She can't be expected to live in a country that is essentially foreign to her.

Her illegal immigrant parents, however, should be booted the hell out like yesterday and go through proper channels if they want to come back.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
My thoughts?

21 responses and zero flags and ONE star.

Take a hint.

I didn't post this thread for a popularity contest. I have the same frustrations with illegal immigration as any other.

The system currently in place isn't working and expecting the federal government to handle it is naive.

We have situations unable to be handled by current law.

What else can we do to reduce illegal immigration? How about screen more (ideally ALL) of them?

Your OP sounded akin to the "amnesty" crowd. People aren't diggin it anymore, not even those on the 'left'.

And I know your aim isn't to be popular. Just letting you in on some reality.

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW

Your OP sounded akin to the "amnesty" crowd. People aren't diggin it anymore, not even those on the 'left'.

I am definitely NOT in favor of any kind of amnesty. I am interested in a productive way to deal with a crisis that neither the laws, the feds or the states can seem to handle.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I agree.. we DO need to loosen our LEGAL immigration laws.. eliminate some red tape.

At the same time, we should never, ever allow such a massive flow from one specific region of the World.. It has to be broad and equal, to ensure the "melting pot" of America doesn't simply become another Little Mexico. It would also give people from other parts of the World like SE Asia, Russia, ME, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa a better opportunity to be here. Legal immigration shouldn't be a loophole for millions of Mexicans to flood our country.

But what the OP's article REALLY means, which we all know what they mean, is Amnesty and Open Borders. HELL NO to that. Anyone here illegally should never, ever have the opportunity for legal citizenship.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
But what the OP's article REALLY means, which we all know what they mean, is Amnesty and Open Borders. HELL NO to that. Anyone here illegally should never, ever have the opportunity for legal citizenship.

The article suggests nothing about amnesty or open borders, nor is that anything I propose. It calls for an expansion of legal avenues for requests for citizenship.

You say:

Anyone here illegally should never, ever have the opportunity for legal citizenship.

So how do we deal with those such as detailed in the OP that were brought here involuntarily? She should NEVER be granted legal citizenship even if applied for?

Nobody seems to want to take on this conundrum.

Tough topic, and there are no easy solutions in this aspect. First I would like to start with Jessica Colatl. As sad as her situation is, she is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, she did knowingly and willfully break the laws of the country and should be deported from the United States of America, along with all other Illegale Immigrants, and then for 1 month, close the borders, to include all refugees, and legal immigrants. This way we have time to sort out what is fact, what is falsehood, the actual truth as to what immigrants contribute to society as a whole and what they do not. It would ease up on the burden of the country and allow for the country to actually work on immigration reform, to where we can actually control who is and is not going to come into the country. The reason for the 1 month hold is that if, as those who are in favor of illegale immigration state, they make a large impact on the country, then it will be seen in that time frame, but if they are wrong, it will be seen as well. And it would give the federal government time to actually work on a comprehensive law, that would actually be fair and equal to all of those wanting to come to the United States and be a part of society in the light, not in the dark.
I will say that immigrants are what made this country, however, without laws, without consequences for those who break the laws, by choosing to ignore the laws of the country in favor of one group or another, is that not the very essence of discrimination and the start of racism? Most of the people who are in this country, want equal justice, not social justice, we all want to be treated equally under the eyes of the law, and it does not bode well, when an illegale immigrant, breaks the laws and they get a slap on the wrist, while the rest of us would end up in jail. And does that matter? Let me ask you this: If you were to steal another persons idenity, and profited from it, what do you think the consequence would be? You go to jail when convicted and caught. But Illegale immigrants, who do the exact same thing, ends up being deported and sent back to their home country, eventually. So if you look at it, a lawful citizen gets beaten down, and punished, the illegale immigrant just gets a slap on the hand and not punished. How is that fair or equal? And would it matter to you if you were in the exact same situation? Or if you are out of a job, would it matter that you can not get hired, cause an illegale immigrant is given the job cause he can do it for less money? Are you satisfied with the status quo? If you are, then you can not be in favor of human rights, as many illegale immigrants, before they get to the country endure the worse abuses of human rights across the board, from muder, to rape, to exhtortion, to kidnapping, to slavery, and far worse along the way, getting into the country and sometimes after they get here, it continues. The proponents of Illegale immigration, mention human rights violations and scream of such once the illegale immigrants are here, but fail to consider the human rights violations that the illegale immigrants endured getting here, while not on US soil.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
As sad as her situation is, she is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, she did knowingly and willfully break the laws of the country

Well, that's sort of hazy ground. She was brought here involuntarily as a child. She was unknowingly and unwillingly placed into an illegal situation caused by a third party, namely her parents.

Should we really deport a college-educated individual who knows nothing about the country she'd be deported to, no connections, no family, etc?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
She should NEVER be granted legal citizenship even if applied for?

Yes, she should have the chance to do that, but I would not reward her with special treatment given the circumstances. She's now an adult and was knowingly skirting the law. If she were a 15 year old kid in high school, I'd let her stay while applying for legal status, but as an adult, she can't fall back on the excuse that her parents brought her here illegally. Its true, but as an adult, she's now fully responsible for herself and her own actions.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by vor78]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I also believe she should be deported and then if she wants back in the country she can go through the proper legal channels. As others have stated it might be different if she was a 15 year old girl. As for being brought here illegally at 10, that should have no bearing on her current situation given that she obviously knows she is here illegally at the age of 21.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Cabalis]

but the United States HAS LEGAL IMMIGRATION

Indeed it does. Sadly it is out of reach of a vast majority of the population of the world.

Like Jessica, I was brought to the USA when I was a child. My parents came on a tourist visa, and never left. I actually didn't know I was illegal until my late teens, as far as I knew I was American. Then, lo and behold it was time get my first driver's licence. That was my first "crime" I lied on the application, said I was born in North Carolina.

I lived in the US for over 25 years as an illegal alien. Trying to get legal was never really an option as I had a sister and my parents to think about, my starting the process would have brought up questions about them. I do have two brothers, America born, but family cannot sponser you until they are 21.

And then, whilst waiting for my brothers to age, 9/11 happened. I knew that day, it was over. And indeed it was. Within a few months my sister and mother had been deported. My father, had remarried an American woman and had a path that way. I had two brothers in the military servicing in sensitive postions and even though they were coming close to the right age, I knew that having one of them sponser me was out of the question at this point.

So there I was. I still worked, hoping that my job wouldn't find out, still held on to my life by a thread, but I knew it was only a matter of time before the knock came to my door. I tried at this point to get some kind of legal status. I took my savings, went to a lawyer, started filling out the forms. A couple of thousand dollars later my lawyer tells me that it might be years and many thousands of dollars later before I could have any kind of status that would allow me to stay. And of course, by this time, my job, where I'd worked for 8 years, found out about my status and they had no choice to but to let me go.

In the end, I gave up. I took voluntary deportation. I went back to a country I didn't know, I didn't speak the language, it was challenge to sya the least. Luckily my mum and sister had already been there for awhile so I did have a place to go, but it was very hard. I had been ripped from my home, the place I'd grown up, the place I'd lived all my life. I did try to make a go of it for awhile, but frankly, I was just too American to ever really fit in.


Ironically, I've immigrated to the UK, it is the most like the place I lived most of my life, thus easing some of the home sickness.

Legal immigration into the United States is a process designed to keep out the poor and undesirables. I had all the advantages, I was well educated, spoke fluent English, and financial stablity.

How much chance would a poor person from Mexico have to go through this process? very little chance indeed, and that's the point isn't it?

The process by which one can legally enter to US favours the wealthy.

Does no one else think that being able to BUY your way in is somehow wrong?

One of the ways by which one can enter to country legally

Originally posted by Merigold

In the end, I gave up. I took voluntary deportation. I went back to a country I didn't know, I didn't speak the language, it was challenge to sya the least. Luckily my mum and sister had already been there for awhile so I did have a place to go, but it was very hard. I had been ripped from my home, the place I'd grown up, the place I'd lived all my life. I did try to make a go of it for awhile, but frankly, I was just too American to ever really fit in.

This is incredibly sad. Thank you for sharing. Stories like this make it difficult for me to suggest immediate deportation for children brought here illegally by their parents. Sure, it may be the proper legal method but it wreaks of a humanitarian immorality.

Enforce the law and legalize the weed.
Just my 1 cent, bad economy and all.

Right now, our unemployment rate is about 10-12%.

Right now, there should be no immigration (legal or illegal).

Solutions are pretty obvious.

1.) Made the officers of companies that employ illegal immigrants pay huge fines and spend time in jail.
2.) Make it mandatory to validate SSN numbers at the time of employment.
3.) Offer no welfare to illegal immigrants.
4.) End birthright citizenship to children of people who are in the US illegally.
5.) Only allow immigration when the unemployment rate is less than 5%
6.) No welfare or social services to legal immigrants until they are citizens.
7.) Make legal immigrants post bonds that will cover their health insurance and auto insurance while going through the citizenship process.
8.) End chains of immigration.
9.) No social security benefits to people unless they have worked and contributed to the system for at least 10 years.

The reason nothing is ever done is because of pandering to a huge block of voters. Illegals can very easily obtain a SS# and DL#. In fact check this out..
www.washingtonexaminer.com...

Until our politicians put the good of the country and enforcing our laws above re-election this will be a problem IMHO.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

I'm interested in your opinions on a few things I didn't see addressed.

1. How do we deal with people such as Jessica Colatl? Brought here illegally and involuntarily as a child, then grows to adulthood still without legal citizenship. I know of no known method to achieve citizenship for people in this situation (perhaps there is one and I just don't know of it). How do we accommodate people in such a position.

This is one of the more difficult aspects to illegal immigration in my opinion. Children under the age of 18, which in our country is the legal age of adulthood, should remain with their parents and if/when they are deported, unfortunately, go with them.

As far as Jessica's case in particular, she becomes part of the problem, and frankly part of the guilty, as soon as she also begins lying in order to perpetrate the lie and the lifestyle she grew accustomed.

For example, she had to use false addresses and false documentation past the age of 18, and therefore is also guilty of committing a crime. In her particular case, I feel that she fully knew that she and her family were breaking the law and at that point, became a willing participant.

Now, if you want to pose the question, she was a kid, what could she have done? These are my thoughts on that subject --

If the child of illegal immigrants that was not born on US soil remains naive regarding the circumstances, does not lie or partake in the lie knowingly, then I believe that once over the age of 18 should be able to apply for citizenship and remain in the country until a hearing can be obtained. The ruling of course would be the final say of whether or not she would be able to remain in the US. I also think that student visas, etc., should be issued at this point expediently in order to not disrupt this person's life any more than necessary.

I believe there is a huge distinction between contributing to a crime [i.e. falsifying documents] and being an unknown accomplice/guilty party.

Just as the government has an "innocent spouse" clause governing joint tax returns, I believe a similar protocol should apply to children of illegal immigrants.

I'm aware that once the child turns 18, he/she may be "outing" her parents in the process, and that's a very difficult decision, but one that has to be made. You can't have it every which way. If my mother or father were to commit a crime and I knowingly helped them cover it up, I would certainly find myself on the wrong side of the law. But if I didn't know about it, the court would certainly take this into consideration and more than likely rule along those lines.

2. Should we expand our handling capabilities for people coming in so that all potential immigrants can be processed?

I think the entire process needs to be more transparent and handled with less cherry-picking. For obvious reasons, not every person that wants to live in the US can, and that's just a fact.

However, I think that the legal process for immigration will fall into line, or at least provide a more accurate picture of what the problems are, once illegal immigration is, for lack of a better term, cleaned up.

Right now, it is easy for people to live in this country illegally, and the agencies designed to handle it, are simply not interested and often do nothing. Or at least don't do enough. So it is a pretty safe gamble for anyone that wants to risk hopping the border. Hence why so many do, only to return again, and again...

On the flip side, legal immigration is costly and a lengthy process. I agree with the time frame -- citizenship is every country should be respected and treated as the privilege it is -- however I think the costs should be more reasonable or at the very least be done on a scale based on the cost of living in their country of origin. I know the government has aide available, but if you look at the numbers, it's not nearly balanced enough in my opinion.

I think it's a little ridiculous to think that someone coming from Mexico has thousands of US dollars on hand to pass over to the government.

I believe that individual citizens should also be given more leniency to sponsor an immigrant wanting to come to this country. I'm thinking along the lines of providing housing for 6 months or a year, assisting in finding legal work, providing work, etc., and be given a sponsorship ID # or something for tracking purposes. Almost like a designated counselor of sorts.

I also think that a closer citizen/immigrant relationship in terms of the sponsorship widening I was discussing above would also provide long term benefits and help to close the culture gap a little.

People tend to accept people once they can put a face to the name, get to know the person on an intimate cooperative level, etc.

Let's face it, the majority of immigrants -- legal and illegal -- are probably decent, hard-working people in search of a better life. Seems to me like we already have a lot in common and I think that relationship should be encouraged.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

So how do we deal with those such as detailed in the OP that were brought here involuntarily? She should NEVER be granted legal citizenship even if applied for?

Ultimately if you allow children of illegals to be given citizenship just because they were brought here .. you're still going to have a massive flux of people trying to get their kids over for free health-care, education, and so on, as well as citizenship. The law should go something like: Born in America with at least one American parent - citizen. Born in America with no legal parent - No citizenship. Brought across the border as a child - no citizenship.

And the woman in the article was an adult.. she never attempted to make things right, she probably thought her game was funny.

And I know the article didn't say amnesty. But I read between the lines "if they are not illegally here, they can't be illegal! So make everyone legal, and no more problem!"