An honest question about Israel / Palestine?

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posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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I know we may not need another Israel/Palestine thread and I will admit that I already have opinions about the situation but i have a very honest question that I will pose for the members of ATS.

Other than the Rockets or missles being shot at Israel that seem to be the biggest argument brought forth for Israel's actions towards Palestine. What other acts of aggression have the Palestinian people commited against the Israeli's.

I hope people don't think I am trying to bait anyone or are throwing out a loaded question because I honestly would like to understand the situation from another point of view to see if there is something that I am missing.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Gargamel]




posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:05 PM
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From what I understand they have shot rockets across the border. I'm not sure about missiles, I don't think they have those. They have cross the border and kidnapped Israeli people and held them for ransom. Maybe a few random gunfire across the border. And "supposedly" they've used human shields in there attacks. I'm unsure about that though. Hasn't stopped anybody from shooting at them before.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by Gargamel
 


Dude there was a time when the average Israeli could not get on a bus, or even go for a maccy d's without fear of been blown up by suicide bombers... Those rockets are not exactly bottle rockets either.. They are deadly and cause much damage... However the real issue is the fundies on both sides.. They both allow their people to suffer because they wont talk to each other... They have both been in power too long too which makes them more desperate to keep that power.. So they do and say things to make that possible.. It has to stop... A clean slate is needed with saner people at the helm..



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:17 PM
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Saner people at the helm

saner people? in the middle East? Israel is as sane as they come over there, good luck.

My point of view.
I never understood why so many Americans tend to side with the terrorists on this issue.
I look at it this way, in the 1800's we took over Texas from Mexico, what if Mexico was shooting scuds over the border from Mexico into Texas? blowing up people in El Paso, kidnapping Texans and decapitating them,sending in suicide bombers into Houston...etc.
Would we be upset if Texas retaliated with swift military action?



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by Just Wondering
 


It is my opinion that it is just plain easier to hate.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by Just Wondering

Saner people at the helm

saner people? in the middle East? Israel is as sane as they come over there, good luck.

My point of view.
I never understood why so many Americans tend to side with the terrorists on this issue.
I look at it this way, in the 1800's we took over Texas from Mexico, what if Mexico was shooting scuds over the border from Mexico into Texas? blowing up people in El Paso, kidnapping Texans and decapitating them,sending in suicide bombers into Houston...etc.
Would we be upset if Texas retaliated with swift military action?


Not to derail my own thread but in your scenario are the Mexicans rounded up into a small area that is contained by walls and are the Americans denying them the basics for rebuilding thier lives?

Like I said, I do have opinions already in place but I am trying to understand a different point of view.

Back on point, thank you for the replies so far. Would it be safe to say that the Palestinian aggression is mostly individualistic rather than an organized assault?



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Gargamel
 


I have studied this issue extensively, in an actual academic setting
and without getting into every detail of the past 60+ years (which I will state can not be ignored) I genuinely believe that the Israeli government is simply adhering to the terrorist tactics that gave birth to the nation. The Israeli government would love nothing more than for the Palestinians to pack and move elsewhere, anywhere else, they don't care, so long as it is not anywhere that Israel has defined as its borders.

You asked what acts of aggression have the Palestinians committed and acknowledged the random rocket, I'll include suicide bombings (which have not been a fan favorite recently). The Palestinians, when launching an attack is relatively ineffective, they maybe kill or harm 50 people at the most, typically you can count the total number on one hand. The retaliation from Israel typically includes a few hundred harmed or killed, at least.

At this point, I tend to believe that the Israeli government is in self preservation mode, not from outside threats, but from the growing Palestinian population.

There was a study done a few years ago (I can locate it if you like) that stated based only upon birth rates, the Palestinians will out number the Jewish Israeli's I believe by 2025 (again I'd have to double check) this means the Arab population within Israel, which does not necessarily include Gaza and the West Bank, although once a majority is achieved in Israel it may be/would be easier to allow access to Israel proper from those areas.

Despite what some may poorly believe, there is a substantial Arab population that lives within Israel. They are Muslim and Christian (typically) and they are Israeli citizens. By launching an attack upon a population where you have excessive deaths you are limiting population growth. I also must include that Arab Christians are treated exactly the same as Arab Muslims, not that I personally feel there aught to be a difference. However, many media outlets like to herd people that all Palestinians are Muslims, and for some reason all Muslims are evil to Christians and Jews. If an evangelical (which I am not one of) were to visit Israel they would quickly learn that there Christian "family" is deemed just as evil, for the simply fact that they are not Jewish Israeli's.

Now, I stated at the beginning that Israel was simply adhering to the terrorist tactics that brought forth the birth of the nation. I stand by this statement and if you are interested, I wrote a thread awhile ago where you can read further into the subject here (you needn't reply, I'm not fishing just for a more in depth study).

Now, really who am I to judge, my country was also formed by a group of people that would today be deemed terrorist in nature, but I however am willing to admit it.

Now, in context to what I believe you were getting to, which is the attack on the floatilla, I believe that it was nothing short of an act of piracy, there is no difference between what the IDF did and what Somali pirates do. They hijacked a ship, lied about the initial events (they did not use paintballs good grief), and then attempt act as if they were the victims when the passengers/workers attempted to fight them off.

The IDF was NOT a victim, they boarded a ship in open waters, which makes them pirates. Thanks to this most recent example, I now have lost the meaning of terrorism along with antisemitism, both are now two words that have no meaning other than propaganda definitions to me which is supposed to mean "evil person" but now mean "someone who Zioinists or a nation does not like for any possible reason, and may be speaking the truth".



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by Yissachar1
 


Thank you Yissachar. I have read your more recent posts and hope that decision makers on both sides of this issue can look at the issue and come to simillar conclusions as you have recently declared.

Back to the point, can you link to any stats that show the extent of damage that was done from suicide bombers and the like. The reason I ask is I would like to figure out if it was an actual threat or if it was something that happened a few times and the media created the fear for the people much like what the media did to the American population shortly after 911.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 


Thanks for the information.

Part of why I am asking this question is I believe that there have been some incredible overreactions by the IDF. When you think about Operation Cast Lead and this floatilla mess I thought maybe there is a reasonable explaination that I am not aware of.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by Gargamel
 


Well, if you were to ask Bibi for an explanation he would say something to the effect of "we have information that proves there were weapons and terrorists aboard that ship and needed to intercept it before it reached Gaza for our preservation, because everyone wants to destroy Israel."

Now, he will NEVER provide the information that led him/the government to make the determination that it was necessary to intercept the ship because they will claim that releasing that intel would somehow harm the Mossad or the state and must remain sealed (common tactic).

As for searching for a rational explanation, to me and most likely you, there isn't one. They overreacted this time, just as with Cast Lead, and in many other countless cases. In regard to the Palestinians, they are completely irrational, and wantt to see them removed be it physically or spiritually
.

edit for spelling


[edit on 3-6-2010 by searching4truth]





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