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Refuting The Lies Of Looters

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posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

The US food market is a mess.


I agree, read the link

The one major place I do agree with you on is food, My wife and I have been involved with organic farming for a few years now and are in the process of trying to set up a community supported agriculture (CSA) project in our own community. The idea is you sell directly to a group of 10-100 families locally, who pay a set amount for the season (works out to be around $25/week) and they get a big box of fresh organic produce ever week. You wind up charging less for everthing, but saving on all the cost asociated with having to find a market for your product.




posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by hawkiye
 


You and your buddy with the "gun" remarks really make me lol. Im saying that if you have a starving family anywhere in the USA there should be someont to help them be fed. If that means some asshat gets one less lambchop on his dinnerplate then so be it.

MessOnTheFED!


Sure as long as you're the asshat that has one less chop on the plate since you are a willing victim of the theft. Just don't try to justify stealing it from someone else against thier will and claim you are compassionate and loving since your actions begin with theft. Oh and as for the gun comments. Try keeping all you earn instead of doling it out and see who eventually comes with guns to collect... Sigh



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by firsttimecaller

Originally posted by mnemeth1

The US food market is a mess.


I agree, read the link

The one major place I do agree with you on is food, My wife and I have been involved with organic farming for a few years now and are in the process of trying to set up a community supported agriculture (CSA) project in our own community. The idea is you sell directly to a group of 10-100 families locally, who pay a set amount for the season (works out to be around $25/week) and they get a big box of fresh organic produce ever week. You wind up charging less for everthing, but saving on all the cost asociated with having to find a market for your product.


That's a great thing.

I hope the government doesn't rain on your parade.

They are shutting down small farms and Amish community farms for not complying with onerous regulations and taxes.

For example, the Amish like to sell fresh milk from cows that hasn't been processed. The government says you are too dumb to buy fresh milk from the Amish, so they ban the Amish from selling it.






[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I dont know if you can grasp this or not but im going to try anyway. If you dont pay your taxes you harm society. So all of your self loathing about innovent people having guns thrown in their face is moot. They have harmed society and should be punished accordingly.

MessOnTheFED!


If you pay your taxes you have harmed society because you have made a Corporation richer and have done nothing for the people.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by ProjectJimmy
 





I'm just going to go on record and say right now, if someone is starving and someone else is hoarding a surplus of food, I do believe it is justified to go at gunpoint and take the surplus from the hoarder. If this is a matter of life and death, absolutely in a heartbeat. I value life far more than I value property rights.


So let me get this straight; if I prepared my family for a crisis and stored food for emergencies and a crisis happened and I had enough food to sustain my family through the emergency, but some dumbass who didn't was starving you would feel justified in stealing the life sustaining food of my wife and children by labeling it hoarding and put them at risk of starving also... Sigh

Well gee I guess if I was to prepare I should also prepare to fend off looters who would shoot me for my families food... Good luck with your trying to loot others. My guess is you won't last long with that mindset.

As for property rights my body is my property it is where I live for now and I have the right to defend it and that includes the food that sustains it.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by hawkiye]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by firsttimecaller
 


I already explained that private security companies could provide a superior service to public police.

Just look at Disney land or a Vegas casino.

If there was no police, a person could contract security services on a pay-per-use or monthly fee basis, just like any other service.

As for the rest, you're looking at problems CREATED by government. The government has not solved the problem of healthcare costs. The government has not solved the problem of well managed roads. Only private enterprise can do that.


[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]




No, seriously, what are you going to do with them once they are caught? Who is going to take care of them, wether it be confinement, corporal punishment, monetary restitution, or execution? Do the Disney cops have their own jails? Do they just have a big pit somewhere where they throw rowides and taggers? Well, mabey they do in Vegas, But back on topic, dealing with criminals is a problem created by the government? Sh!t man, did they make rain and drunk drivers too? You seem to have alot of ideas on what's wrong, but not alot of ideas on how to make it right.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by firsttimecaller
No, seriously, what are you going to do with them once they are caught? Who is going to take care of them, wether it be confinement, corporal punishment, monetary restitution, or execution? Do the Disney cops have their own jails? Do they just have a big pit somewhere where they throw rowides and taggers? Well, mabey they do in Vegas, But back on topic, dealing with criminals is a problem created by the government? Sh!t man, did they make rain and drunk drivers too? You seem to have alot of ideas on what's wrong, but not alot of ideas on how to make it right.



Economist Hans Hoppe: A Private Law Society
www.youtube.com...

Economist Hans Hoppe: The Production of Law and Order
Lecture starts @ time 17:00
www.youtube.com...

He answers a lot of your questions.

Here is a near endless list of economics videos on a voluntary society:
fascistsoup.com...

Check out the other video libraries linked for even more information.

What you are asking me to explain is just way too much for a forum post.



[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



So let me get this straight; if I prepared my family for a crisis and stored food for emergencies and a crisis happened and I had enough food to sustain my family through the emergency, but some dumbass who didn't was starving you would feel justified in stealing the life sustaining food of my wife and children by labeling it hoarding and put them at risk of starving also... Sigh


That is a very good question Hawkiye.

From a personal perspective I do not have the resources to prepare for such a scenario, so I would be in a bad position. But, I would not rob someone's surplus, I would offer up my labor and any services that I could provide in a time of need to add something of intrinsic value to your family in exchange for whatever you could offer.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by firsttimecaller

Originally posted by mnemeth1


That's a great thing.

I hope the government doesn't rain on your parade.

They are shutting down small farms and Amish community farms for not complying with onerous regulations and taxes.

For example, the Amish like to sell fresh milk from cows that hasn't been processed. The government says you are too dumb to buy fresh milk from the Amish, so they ban the Amish from selling it.






[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]


Move North, man.

Michael Schmidt

What I am doing is fully encouraged. I'm even going to get a tax break, and can claim all my supplies, farm equipment, insurance, and part of my mortgage as expenses.
By the way, I paid twice as much for private insurance in Ontario then I do for goverment run insurance now, plus, I have much better coverage. My government run electricity is cheaper, and well maintained, just like my roads.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1



He answers a lot of your questions.


[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]


Sweet, Thanks for the links! I suppose I could have just paid better attention to your tag line...
I'm out, it's recycling time.
Here's to hope and a new solution.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by firsttimecaller]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by dalan.
reply to post by hawkiye
 



So let me get this straight; if I prepared my family for a crisis and stored food for emergencies and a crisis happened and I had enough food to sustain my family through the emergency, but some dumbass who didn't was starving you would feel justified in stealing the life sustaining food of my wife and children by labeling it hoarding and put them at risk of starving also... Sigh


That is a very good question Hawkiye.

From a personal perspective I do not have the resources to prepare for such a scenario, so I would be in a bad position. But, I would not rob someone's surplus, I would offer up my labor and any services that I could provide in a time of need to add something of intrinsic value to your family in exchange for whatever you could offer.


And there you go you show the difference between a thief and an honest hard working person! Chances are if you ask you will get some help. But if you use force you will likely be met with force.

I do take issue with you not having the resources. I have heard that many times and if I can asses the situation I can usually find areas that can be cut back a little to provide for some emergency preparedness. With all of today's natural disasters, weather, volcanoes etc. it is only prudent to have some emergency supplies.

Some common areas people can cut back. are stop buying lunch at work and pack your lunch. I know folks who spend $40-$60 a week on lunches. Crap foods like sodas cookies candy etc. Hobbies. Do you really need the latest CD or Movie or? etc etc etc.

Now every time you go to the store buy some extra canned goods they are cheap and build up fast and you'll hardly notice the extra cost. If you can by wheat rice and beans in bulk 50-100 pounds it is relatively cheap anywhere from 10-20 dollars. Check LDS canneries in your phone book. Water is the most under prepared for item.

Unless you're destitute there is really no excuse for not getting prepared. Check out this site: www.preparednesspro.com...



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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So how do you plan on paying for these private securities (school, roads, fire service etc) without a unified currency?

The gov't provides our worthless paper and gives it value (with what, I have no idea) and it is an agreed value.

If you decided to do away with the gov't, how would you go about paying for things? The good old fashioned way of barter? What could you barter with?

Im not knocking your ideas here, Im just trying to see where you are coming from.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by RicketyCricket
So how do you plan on paying for these private securities (school, roads, fire service etc) without a unified currency?

The gov't provides our worthless paper and gives it value (with what, I have no idea) and it is an agreed value.

If you decided to do away with the gov't, how would you go about paying for things? The good old fashioned way of barter? What could you barter with?

Im not knocking your ideas here, Im just trying to see where you are coming from.


Hans Hoppe: Money and Banking
www.youtube.com...

Walter Block: The Story of Trade and Money
www.youtube.com...

Money, Banking and the Federal Reserve
www.youtube.com...



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by dalan.
From a personal perspective I do not have the resources to prepare for such a scenario, so I would be in a bad position. But, I would not rob someone's surplus, I would offer up my labor and any services that I could provide in a time of need to add something of intrinsic value to your family in exchange for whatever you could offer.



What is to stop this person from say... requiring that you either surrender your person firearms to him or a 3rd party while you labor for him on his property? I mean you're starving right? And then what's to stop him from say... putting some sort of restraining device on your person while you are indebted to him for the food he's shared with you and yours? Again, it's this or starvation.

What's to stop him from never removing these restraining devices when he decides he likes your labor too much to let you go?

It seems those of you who are so anti-government and anti-tax really expect the best out of people in the worst situations. I personally expect and plan for the worst. Why hasn't Somalia stabilized yet? They've been without a government since the early *90s*. Will someone please explain to me where *they* are going wrong with this no government idea?



[edit on 2-6-2010 by negativenihil]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by ProjectJimmy
 





I'm just going to go on record and say right now, if someone is starving and someone else is hoarding a surplus of food, I do believe it is justified to go at gunpoint and take the surplus from the hoarder. If this is a matter of life and death, absolutely in a heartbeat. I value life far more than I value property rights.


So let me get this straight; if I prepared my family for a crisis and stored food for emergencies and a crisis happened and I had enough food to sustain my family through the emergency, but some dumbass who didn't was starving you would feel justified in stealing the life sustaining food of my wife and children by labeling it hoarding and put them at risk of starving also... Sigh

Well gee I guess if I was to prepare I should also prepare to fend off looters who would shoot me for my families food... Good luck with your trying to loot others. My guess is you won't last long with that mindset.

As for property rights my body is my property it is where I live for now and I have the right to defend it and that includes the food that sustains it.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by hawkiye]


Now wait a moment, I said nothing about that kind of scenario now did I? If you have enough to get your family through, that's not a surplus, that's what you need and I am not going to ever advocate starving your family tomorrow to feed someone today. I'm not out to get you mate, I'm not out to get anyone really.

I agree totally with the OP on this one that there is very seldom if ever a real-life scenario like the one I described. It should be a matter of convincing and when dealing with an individual such convincing is much more likely to work well.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:40 PM
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You are one hell of an anarchist that's for sure. I'm not quite at that level, there are duties the government MUST carry out in order for a society to function at will:

1. Common Defense

2. Funding of science and technology(this is even supported in the Constitution).

3. National infrastructure as it pertains to communications(strict bar of ANY censorship, that is what should be up to the damned v-chip user) and common defense.

4. Enforcing contracts.

5. Regulating Interstate commerce(Regulate meaning facilitating and standardizing) and to make sure states don't tarrif other states other than what is necessary for inspection.


These are already Constitutional powers of the Federal Government. The problem is that they only read the part of the Constitution that grants them power and ignores the part that Constrains that power. We as a people must stop getting fooled by a false smile, a dog & pony show, or catchy slogans. Only then will the people be heard.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by projectvxn]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


You are my favorite ATS poster.

You have taught me that Anarchy is not a dirty word.

I was an anarchist and didn't even know it.

Thanks. S+F



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

Sure as long as you're the asshat that has one less chop on the plate since you are a willing victim of the theft. Just don't try to justify stealing it from someone else against thier will and claim you are compassionate and loving since your actions begin with theft. Oh and as for the gun comments. Try keeping all you earn instead of doling it out and see who eventually comes with guns to collect... Sigh


I personally dont mid being that asshat as long as the person recieveing the goods need it more than me. Its TAXES not THEFT. There is a huge difference there. One is supporting your community and country and the other is theft plain and simple. If you cant get over that then i figure you wont be much of a contributer to you country or community. Anywhere you go you will have to pay taxes and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it. Except get over it of course.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by negativenihil

Originally posted by dalan.
From a personal perspective I do not have the resources to prepare for such a scenario, so I would be in a bad position. But, I would not rob someone's surplus, I would offer up my labor and any services that I could provide in a time of need to add something of intrinsic value to your family in exchange for whatever you could offer.



What is to stop this person from say... requiring that you either surrender your person firearms to him or a 3rd party while you labor for him on his property? I mean you're starving right? And then what's to stop him from say... putting some sort of restraining device on your person while you are indebted to him for the food he's shared with you and yours? Again, it's this or starvation.

What's to stop him from never removing these restraining devices when he decides he likes your labor too much to let you go?

It seems those of you who are so anti-government and anti-tax really expect the best out of people in the worst situations. I personally expect and plan for the worst. Why hasn't Somalia stabilized yet? They've been without a government since the early *90s*. Will someone please explain to me where *they* are going wrong with this no government idea?



[edit on 2-6-2010 by negativenihil]



Your gun.

Violence in self-defense is justified.

There is a reason blacks could not own guns during institutionalized slavery. They might shoot the slave owners.



[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
. Its TAXES not THEFT. There is a huge difference there.


There is no difference.

One is theft.

The other is legalized theft.

Both require violence.

Neither help society.



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