Refuting The Lies Of Looters

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

Negative sir. I have paid my dues and worked very hard to get where i am today. I have put myself through college and now have an excellent job. And i did it all on my own. But that dosent mean that im going to go all high and mighty on everyone. I can grasp that some people arent as fortunate as me and i certainly dont mind helping them. You would have everyone that is less fortunate than you living in the gutter as you walk by in your Vercace (SP) overcoat. That is sickening.

MessOnTheFED!

If you can grasp that people aren't as well off as you, then perhaps you should donate to charity.

I'm all in favor of charity.

I'm against armed robbery.

So we should let corporations run everything? Do you seriously belive that there are going to be a bunch of small, loacally run police, fire emergency companies springing up all over the place? Do you really think that having every road be a toll road is going to save you money? Do you think you'll get to pay for it on a monthly basis, or will you drop a buck-fifty in the basket every time you head to the boot leg liqour store?
In Canada, if I beak my leg, I call an ambulance, it comes to where I am, takes me to the hospital, and I get treated, without having to do a credit check, or present my Visa. I do not get a bill in the mail. Over the years, I have pre paid along with everybody else who makes over $11,000 in small increments. Consider it like a savings account. I'm not saying the system is without it's flaws, all large systems are, but it's better than limping to a vet clinic 'cause i left my cheque book at home.

If you privatize everything, all the same big corporations that are the problems today will be even bigger problems tomorrow. Think of the possibilities!
Water treatment facilities run by BP!

reply to post by hawkiye


Your absolutely right! What the hell was i thinking? If they cant afford to feed themselves they should deffinately starve. Sounds like someone need to get their butts off of their shoulders.

MessOnTheFED!

reply to post by mnemeth1


Exactly what makes you think that i dont donate? Even tough i do i realize that it isnt enough. Thats why i dont cry like a baby about having to pay taxes.

MessOnTheFED!

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

Well if you would just pay your taxes you wouldnt have to worry about these "guns". Its hard to believe that if there were no government, people would freely pay for things such as roads and schools. Even though every person In america needs both of them. If everyone in a country needs something then why not have a governing body to take care of the whole aspect of it..... o wait we do duh. the government!

MessOnTheFED!

Hey everyone needs food too so I should just get a gang together call them government and steal food from you and anyone I choose to feed others right... Oh wait we already have that...Sigh!

Why is it so hard for people to rap thier minds around the fact that stealing from folks against thier will to provide for others is still theft? Why will no socialist on this board answer me when I ask what they have against making all thier programs voluntary? Are you afraid people will not be charitable enough and that justifies continued theft from people against thier will to support your beloved programs?

Has anyone considered that our society is crumbling because it's foundation is force theft and fear as in government stealing the fruits of our labors against our will through fear of being imprisoned or even killed if we resist such force?

[edit on 2-6-2010 by hawkiye]

Alright here's a Socialist that will answer that question for you right here!

It's not theft because it is agreed upon by the social contract that you enter into by taking part in a given society.

I am not just afraid that people would not be charitable, I am in fact certain of it. Taxation is a method to ensure the re-distribution of funds (hey yep I said it and I'm not going to deny it or back down, I am FOR some wealth re-distribution.)

People can be greedy and quite selfish, individualism to the extent that Anarchist Libertarians take it to is dangerous because of the massive number of people that will be crushed under the greediest and least ethical of our world.

You will be rewarding the worst aspects of humanity.

-So we should let corporations run everything?

No, we should let private citizens engage in voluntary exchanges with each other.


-Do you seriously belive that there are going to be a bunch of small, loacally run police, fire emergency companies springing up all over the place?

Yes, if there is a market demand for such services, businesses will be created to meet the demand.


-Do you really think that having every road be a toll road is going to save you money?

Compared to the cost of taxes? You bet.


-Do you think you'll get to pay for it on a monthly basis, or will you drop a buck-fifty in the basket every time you head to the boot leg liqour store?

I think the private toll roads in CA work quite well. They have electronic passes you can buy that let you fly right through the toll both and then they send you a bill at the end of each month.


-In Canada, if I beak my leg, I call an ambulance, it comes to where I am, takes me to the hospital, and I get treated, without having to do a credit check, or present my Visa. I do not get a bill in the mail. Over the years, I have pre paid along with everybody else who makes over $11,000 in small increments. Consider it like a savings account. I'm not saying the system is without it's flaws, all large systems are, but it's better than limping to a vet clinic 'cause i left my cheque book at home.

I think the cost of medical care would be massively lower than what it is now if people had to pay for their own care. Not only would the cost be 1/10th of what it is now, but the service would be 1000x better.

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

Exactly what makes you think that i dont donate? Even tough i do i realize that it isnt enough. Thats why i dont cry like a baby about having to pay taxes.

MessOnTheFED!

I'm not crying about paying taxes.

I'm crying about armed robbery, violence, and brutality.

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Your absolutely right! What the hell was i thinking? If they cant afford to feed themselves they should deffinately starve. Sounds like someone need to get their butts off of their shoulders.

MessOnTheFED!

So your saying starving people cannot be get fed without government theft?

Of course that is a false argument because it insinuates that starving people cannot be fed without government theft. However thank you for illustrating my point. You believe that if someone is starving you are justified in using force at the point of a gun to steal from someone else to feed them!

Of course we fed the poor in this country for nearly over a century without any government theft but you just ignore that fact.

reply to post by hawkiye


Apparently we are all too dumb to feed ourselves.

We should nationalize agriculture like Soviet Russia and kill off 7 million people through mass starvation like they did to the Ukrainians.

reply to post by hawkiye


You and your buddy with the "gun" remarks really make me lol. Im saying that if you have a starving family anywhere in the USA there should be someont to help them be fed. If that means some asshat gets one less lambchop on his dinnerplate then so be it.

MessOnTheFED!

Originally posted by mnemeth1
reply to post by negativenihil

 

When government is not there to subsidize something, its price will drop until the market can afford it.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

You mean like farming subsidies?
prices will drop all right, right after the population, the whole system is supported by subsidies. It does need to change though, and there are some pretty cool people working on changing the way we farm, in the states there's
this guy Joel Salatin
while I agree with you that the way things are run are wrong, and people everwhere are taken advantage of by dirt bags, I do not belive tossing the baby out with the bathwater is the best plan.

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Your absolutely right! What the hell was i thinking? If they cant afford to feed themselves they should deffinately starve. Sounds like someone need to get their butts off of their shoulders.

MessOnTheFED!

So your saying starving people cannot be get fed without government theft?

Of course that is a false argument because it insinuates that starving people cannot be fed without government theft. However thank you for illustrating my point. You believe that if someone is starving you are justified in using force at the point of a gun to steal from someone else to feed them!

Of course we fed the poor in this country for nearly over a century without any government theft but you just ignore that fact.

I'm just going to go on record and say right now, if someone is starving and someone else is hoarding a surplus of food, I do believe it is justified to go at gunpoint and take the surplus from the hoarder. If this is a matter of life and death, absolutely in a heartbeat.

I value life far more than I value property rights.

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by hawkiye

 

You and your buddy with the "gun" remarks really make me lol. Im saying that if you have a starving family anywhere in the USA there should be someont to help them be fed. If that means some asshat gets one less lambchop on his dinnerplate then so be it.

MessOnTheFED!

In a free society, that "someone" is called charity.

In a violent totalitarian dictatorship, that "someone" is called government.

Ever wonder why you never hear about charities in communist police states?






[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


so are you saying that we are a free society and a violent totalitarian dictatorship? What are you getting at?

MessOnTheFED!

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy

I'm just going to go on record and say right now, if someone is starving and someone else is hoarding a surplus of food, I do believe it is justified to go at gunpoint and take the surplus from the hoarder. If this is a matter of life and death, absolutely in a heartbeat.

I value life far more than I value property rights.

I actually agree.

However, I would bet that if someone is legitimately starving, they could convince someone to give them food without resorting to violence.

It is irrational to assume that violence is necessary to feed a starving family.

Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

so are you saying that we are a free society and a violent totalitarian dictatorship? What are you getting at?

MessOnTheFED!

I'm saying our government is a criminal looting organization that uses force against people that have caused harm to no one.

Think "mafia protection money" racketeering.




[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

Originally posted by firsttimecaller
You mean like farming subsidies?
prices will drop all right, right after the population, the whole system is supported by subsidies. It does need to change though, and there are some pretty cool people working on changing the way we farm, in the states there's
this guy Joel Salatin
while I agree with you that the way things are run are wrong, and people everwhere are taken advantage of by dirt bags, I do not belive tossing the baby out with the bathwater is the best plan.

Government farm subsidies are not supporting the farming system.

They are supporting mega-corporations.

They are also distorting the market.

There's a lot more than just subsidies that is distorting the US food market. I could list at least a dozen things right off the top of my head that are causing huge distortions in the price of food.

Corn subsidies cause over-production of corn, a lot of which is wasted.

Government subsidizes farmers NOT to grow certain crops.

Government subsidizes ethanol production.

Government regulations on farming itself are near endless causing all manner of cost over-runs and compliance costs.

The US food market is a mess.


A small excerpt:
www.globalresearch.ca...

Political leaders of both parties have appropriated billions of dollars to subsidize major agribusiness corporations to destroy food; the latest appropriation was $14 billion. They call the process “bio-fuel” or ethanol production, but because the amount of fuel produced is less than the amount of fuel it takes to produce it, the only correct term for the process is systematic destruction of the food consumed in the process. Agribusiness giants include Archer Daniels Midland, whose income was $44 billion last year, are subsidized to burn up America’s surplus food (mostly corn), while they carry out their principle business, marketing the remaining food which is made more scarce, expensive, and profitable in the process. Congress has created over us the first nearly foolproof, open-ended, food monopoly. This finacial scam is to big and too well sheltered not to come from the highest level of banking and politics.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]

-So we should let corporations run everything?

No, we should let private citizens engage in voluntary exchanges with each other.

-In what form? Same idea, monthly contract? Do you pay them after they show up or in advance? What laws do they operate under? If the guys whose on your lawn bugging you pays then more to get rid of you, what do you do then? Do they work just for the town you are in, or does their jurisdiction cover the whole state? What about state lines? If the guy who just robbed you escapes in your car and gets across the borderinto the next state, can they chase him? What do they do when they catch him? Is the whole neighborhood going to sit down and figure out what to do with him, or do you guys have a court figured out? Who pays the judges? Who owns the jails?



I think the private toll roads in CA work quite well. They have electronic passes you can buy that let you fly right through the toll both and then they send you a bill at the end of each month.

-Not just some roads, all roads. I've used pay highways too, nice up keep, and yes, theyr are sure to send you the bill right away. I don't know about the tolls in CA, but the ones in Canada for the most part were engineered and built by local government with taxpayer money, then were sold to private companies to be used as toll ways, which actually lost the provinces a whole lot of revenue.


I think the cost of medical care would be massively lower than what it is now if people had to pay for their own care. Not only would the cost be 1/10th of what it is now, but the service would be 1000x better.

-You already do pay for it, but, the people you have entrusted it to have horribly miss managed it. If you get lukemia and you think you can foot the bill for it on your own, then by all means, go for it. Though you are right, if the goverment stopped using tax payers money to give taxpayers health insurance, it would indeed cost them 1/10th of what it costs them now.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

Alright here's a Socialist that will answer that question for you right here!

It's not theft because it is agreed upon by the social contract that you enter into by taking part in a given society.

No contract is valid unless fully disclosed up front and signed by the men or women involved. I never signed on to any social contract. Perhaps more importantly most of the so called services provided do not exist or the taxes stolen from me far exceed the actual cost. It is fraud force and coercion! Even if what you said was true (it is not) then I should be able to opt out of said contract, but if I try I will be met with force at threat of imprisonment and at gun point if I resist enough. Force and fraud alone is enough to invalidate the contract!

I am not just afraid that people would not be charitable, I am in fact certain of it. Taxation is a method to ensure the re-distribution of funds (hey yep I said it and I'm not going to deny it or back down, I am FOR some wealth re-distribution.)

So now we know that you believe theft is ok. At least you are honest about knowing you are participating in theft... Sigh!

People can be greedy and quite selfish, individualism to the extent that Anarchist Libertarians take it to is dangerous because of the massive number of people that will be crushed under the greediest and least ethical of our world.

Well it is not a crime to be selfish. The people are already being crushed under the greediest and least ethical of our world and socialism is their mechanism of control. They have convinced otherwise intelligent people that without them what they are already doing (greed and corruption) is what will happen LOL!

All these greedy people are the politically connected and this supposed regulation to stop the greed enables these elite to perpetuate it in the name of protecting you. Free markets are proven in history to minimize greed and corruption through competition. The very thing you fear is what will stop the greed and corruption! It is the regulation that enables it for the elite. Yet they have you convinced somehow that everything is fair. Look at the bailouts and Goldman Sachs etc. Why do you people believe that is because of not enough oversight??? That is the mist highly regulated market on the planet precisely so they can feed thier greed and protect thier markets from fair competition putting them out of business!

You will be rewarding the worst aspects of humanity.

So the billions bailing out the banksters and oil companies etc. killing the planet and plunging us into poverty must be the best aspects of humanity right??? Because that is where all the rewards are going via this wonderful regulated controlled socialist utopia we all live in....

History has proven you wrong! Free markets are self correcting they work and are proven! We have anything but free markets. Stop believing the propaganda that freedom is the cause of all our woes!

reply to post by firsttimecaller


I already explained that private security companies could provide a superior service to public police.

Just look at Disney land or a Vegas casino.

If there was no police, a person could contract security services on a pay-per-use or monthly fee basis, just like any other service.

As for the rest, you're looking at problems CREATED by government. The government has not solved the problem of healthcare costs. The government has not solved the problem of well managed roads. Only private enterprise can do that.


[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]