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Refuting The Lies Of Looters

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posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by negativenihil
 


How do you know your parents wouldn't have been able to afford it without taxes?

When government is not there to subsidize something, its price will drop until the market can afford it.

Not only would your parents have a ton of extra money, the cost of the schooling itself would be much lower.

It is wrong to put a gun to my head to pay for your education.



[edit on 2-6-2010 by mnemeth1]




posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by brainwrek
reply to post by MessOnTheFED!
 


A time of need indicates an emergency situation, which as statistics show, the lower the taxes, the more private charitable contributions rise.

The lifespan of educating a child from K-12 is not a time of need, it is a lifestyle.

If someone cannot afford to fully finance the upbringing of their children, then they shouldnt have them.



I do agree with you on the point that if you cant afford kids dont have them, but that donset change anything now does it. People have kids everyday. Many shouldn't by your standards. Maybe you SHOULD move to china. See how that works out for you. Im perfectly happy here. I pay my taxes and help when and where i am needed.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Nice job mnemeth1!!! S&F for a well written concise dose of reality! It always makes me laugh and frustrated at the same time whenever some numbskull tries to claim government is responsible for all the benefits of society. Government produces nothing and contributes misery and suffering through theft and even murder. If most people would do a little research they would realize thier taxes do not pay for most government services but goes into the slush funds known as the CAFR funds.

Also there is a great article written by Thomas Paine one of our founding fathers that sums up nicely how government does not contribute to society titled: Society Is a Blessing, but Government Is Evil. It should be required reading for all Americans!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Like i said earlier where is this gun that you keep complaining about?

If you truly think its that bad why dont you run for office where you might actually be able to change something, because venting on a discussion board deffinately wont do it.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!

Originally posted by brainwrek
reply to post by MessOnTheFED!
 


A time of need indicates an emergency situation, which as statistics show, the lower the taxes, the more private charitable contributions rise.

The lifespan of educating a child from K-12 is not a time of need, it is a lifestyle.

If someone cannot afford to fully finance the upbringing of their children, then they shouldnt have them.



I do agree with you on the point that if you cant afford kids dont have them, but that donset change anything now does it. People have kids everyday. Many shouldn't by your standards. Maybe you SHOULD move to china. See how that works out for you. Im perfectly happy here. I pay my taxes and help when and where i am needed.

MessOnTheFED!


If people knew they would be held accountable for raising their own children rather than relying on government looting to support their kids, perhaps they would be more responsible?

Ya think?



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Like i said earlier where is this gun that you keep complaining about?

If you truly think its that bad why dont you run for office where you might actually be able to change something, because venting on a discussion board deffinately wont do it.

MessOnTheFED!


I used to work for a county treasury.

The gun is the Sheriff that confiscates your property when you don't pay your taxes.

The gun is the IRS agent that raids your business when you don't pay your taxes.

There's plenty of guns involved.

Without government guns, tax collection would be near impossible.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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Wow someone has been playing a little too much Mass Effect haha.

So you say that I am not required to pay but I have to pay more for my current level of services? On top of this I get no say in the system besides voting with my feet and going to a competing service assuming one exists and there is not a monopoly in the given field?

So what is to keep me from ending up being owned by my employers? If everything is privatized and there is no government to keep track of companies, what is to stop things like debtors prison, serfdom and even outright slavery from coming back?

If you say "oh because everyone is armed" no sorry I don't buy it, what's to keep someone from simply smackjacking me from behind and dragging me off to the salt mines? Do I have to hire someone to protect me from slavers?

What you are talking about here is not the creation of a new society just the complete destruction of our current one. There is a reason Anarchy is often said in the same breath as chaos, because chaos would be the one true ruler of such a system.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by ProjectJimmy

So what is to keep me from ending up being owned by my employers? If everything is privatized and there is no government to keep track of companies, what is to stop things like debtors prison, serfdom and even outright slavery from coming back?


Working for someone is voluntary.

Debtors prisons are government creations.

Serfdom is also a government enforced creation.

Slavery also can not exist without government enforcing it.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Well if you would just pay your taxes you wouldnt have to worry about these "guns". Its hard to believe that if there were no government, people would freely pay for things such as roads and schools. Even though every person In america needs both of them. If everyone in a country needs something then why not have a governing body to take care of the whole aspect of it..... o wait we do duh. the government!

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
There is a reason Anarchy is often said in the same breath as chaos, because chaos would be the one true ruler of such a system.


History has proven you wrong. If most people would do a little research they would realize thier taxes do not pay for most government services but goes into the slush funds known as the CAFR funds.

There is a great article written by Thomas Paine one of our founding fathers that sums up nicely how government does not contribute to society titled: Society Is a Blessing, but Government Is Evil. It should be required reading for all Americans!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Well if you would just pay your taxes you wouldnt have to worry about these "guns". Its hard to believe that if there were no government, people would freely pay for things such as roads and schools. Even though every person In america needs both of them. If everyone in a country needs something then why not have a governing body to take care of the whole aspect of it..... o wait we do duh. the government!

MessOnTheFED!


Violence directed against people that have harmed no one is wrong.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


So what should we do then? Just sit around like turtles on logs and wait for society to crumble? Should we just sit in our homes and wait for them to be taken from us because we didnt pay our mortgages? I could stare at the wall all day that sounds fun. We live in a civilized society wich means that we have to pay our taxes. Right or wrong is irelevant. Have you failed to do something with yourself or something? Have you been sitting around your whole life looking for a handout?

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


So what should we do then? Just sit around like turtles on logs and wait for society to crumble? Should we just sit in our homes and wait for them to be taken from us because we didnt pay our mortgages? I could stare at the wall all day that sounds fun. We live in a civilized society wich means that we have to pay our taxes. Right or wrong is irelevant. Have you failed to do something with yourself or something? Have you been sitting around your whole life looking for a handout?

MessOnTheFED!


I'm the one claiming I don't need a government handout.

Perhaps you are confused here.

I don't need violence done on my behalf in order to live a good life.

You are the one claiming that you require violence done on your behalf in order to live a good life.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy

So what is to keep me from ending up being owned by my employers? If everything is privatized and there is no government to keep track of companies, what is to stop things like debtors prison, serfdom and even outright slavery from coming back?


Working for someone is voluntary.

Debtors prisons are government creations.

Serfdom is also a government enforced creation.

Slavery also can not exist without government enforcing it.



Wow wait what? So what would you call it then when say Nike abducts you off the street and puts you in a sweatshop with armed guards? I would tend to call that slavery, and that would be perfectly permitted in your system.

Who is there to make sure that work is voluntary? What process is there to ensure that you get paid or are not coerced into working for someone?

Let's add another variable to this one too, the violence: Say Apple comes out with the iPad and sales of Microsoft-running tablet PCs drop. Microsoft decides the best way to deal with this is to start a terrorist campaign against Apple. They bomb, assassinate and do the whole nine on them. Apple in turn decides to defend themselves and this in turn becomes a war between Microsoft and Apple.

What in your government-less system would prevent this kind of insanity from ever happening?

All I am seeing in your vision is enslavement of the masses, corporate warfare and absolute misery for all but the most astronomically wealthy whom would live like kings playing the people as pawns in a no-rules game.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I dont know if you can grasp this or not but im going to try anyway. If you dont pay your taxes you harm society. So all of your self loathing about innovent people having guns thrown in their face is moot. They have harmed society and should be punished accordingly.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by negativenihil
 


I don't see them as flaws at all. The market system would work in this model. If the services were not provided at an acceptable level the firm would be fired and another one hired. You would not arrange it to have a monopoly for a given service, but rather a competive environment.

To the extent that there was an error providing a service that caused damage there would be civil and or criminal penalities.

The same argument was made about garbage collection years ago and most places that is none by private firms. Private firms run many of the prisons in the country and there are serious pieces of infrastructure such as bridges that are run by private firms.

Just in Washington State, the government runs part of the ferry system and Argosy runs part. The state run service sucks. The boats are out of service and the cost continues to go up. They are out of money and now want to not only pass bonds to keep the ferry service afloat, but want to fire Argosy and take over the rest of the state ferry system. The employee/passenger ratios between the two are not comparable because Argosy needs to make a profit. Now you might expect that that would drive them to cut corners but you would be wrong. The boats need to run in order for them to make any money, so the boats are well maintained and the staff well trained. In addition, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge is one of the largest suspension bridges in the country. It was built with private money and is run by a private firm

This illusion that most of the services we receive can not be privatized is nonsense.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Well if you would just pay your taxes you wouldnt have to worry about these "guns". Its hard to believe that if there were no government, people would freely pay for things such as roads and schools. Even though every person In america needs both of them. If everyone in a country needs something then why not have a governing body to take care of the whole aspect of it..... o wait we do duh. the government!

MessOnTheFED!


Hey everyone needs food too so I should just get a gang together call them government and steal food from you and anyone I choose to feed others right... Oh wait we already have that...Sigh!

Why is it so hard for people to rap thier minds around the fact that stealing from folks against thier will to provide for others is still theft? Why will no socialist on this board answer me when I ask what they have against making all thier programs voluntary? Are you afraid people will not be charitable enough and that justifies continued theft from people against thier will to support your beloved programs?

Has anyone considered that our society is crumbling because it's foundation is force theft and fear as in government stealing the fruits of our labors against our will through fear of being imprisoned or even killed if we resist such force?

[edit on 2-6-2010 by hawkiye]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by MessOnTheFED!
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I dont know if you can grasp this or not but im going to try anyway. If you dont pay your taxes you harm society. So all of your self loathing about innovent people having guns thrown in their face is moot. They have harmed society and should be punished accordingly.

MessOnTheFED!


lol

So if you put a gun to my head and demand money, if I don't pay you, I have caused you harm?



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Negative sir. I have paid my dues and worked very hard to get where i am today. I have put myself through college and now have an excellent job. And i did it all on my own. But that dosent mean that im going to go all high and mighty on everyone. I can grasp that some people arent as fortunate as me and i certainly dont mind helping them. You would have everyone that is less fortunate than you living in the gutter as you walk by in your Vercace (SP) overcoat. That is sickening.

MessOnTheFED!



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

lol

So if you put a gun to my head and demand money, if I don't pay you, I have caused you harm?



No if you refuse to pay your taxes to begin with then you have caused me harm. You are the one you seek to abolish.

MessOnTheFED!



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