Religion is a perversion of intention

reply to post by queenannie38


Well Said!

Just a little tid bit of info... The original usage of the term "church" in the bible was in reference to the congregation of people in the faith and not the man made establishment. This should clear up a lot of the misunderstanding and goes to prove your point

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by APOCOLYPSE DAWN
please post the source of your information instead of opinion. I would like to see an example where Christianity relies on fiction rather than a proven fact.

Well, let's see

1) To start with the giant elephant in the room, Christianity claims the existence of a deity. The existence of said deity has NOT been proven...trust me, if it were, the MSN would go all "OMGOMGOMG, God exists" on us

2) Creation...again, no proof whatsoever, only claims in the bible...the book that was written by MEN.

3) The arch! The whole idea of being able to stuff all animals in one boat around that time is beyond crazy...yet a lot of Christians take this FICTIONAL story literally.

There's plenty more, but those are some of the most evident ones...also, they're quite important considering they form some of the cornerstones of Christianity.

I can't wait for the first posters claiming "the existence of god is a fact, and the creation as the bible tells it is the full truth, and Noah really had a giant boat that hosted all animals and saved them from a worldwide flood". Those are just fictional stories, and you can learn something from their moral statements, but that's about it...they are FICTIONAL and we don't have proof that they're FACTUAL.

Firstly,

1) You cant prove there is no God! so we are at an en-pass and agree to disagree.

2) Creation cannot be dis proven as well. Yes, the bible is a book written through men. Like you who type through a keyboard on your computer. Did your computer think and write your replies for you?.... the answer is NO! you did and the computer was merely a vessel in which you were able to communicate to other computers. The Bible is a book which was written Through man to speak to man. Not by man to man... if your understanding about Christian faith was strong and knowledgable you would already know that.

3) Noah's Arc has actually been mathematically proven to work. If you need to I can put together a little math lesson and teach you why the Arc was actually big enough to house the animals giving the historical account more validity. The Flood was actually proven giving the historical account again more Validity. Not to mention that there have also been reports throughout history of people seeing part of the Arc in the mountains surrounding Mt. Ararat as well as pictures. Due to the Turkey Gov. declaring it sacred land no-one is allowed to travel up the mountain to excavate the sites.

*These are the cornerstones of Christianity???? I think you need to actually learn what true Christianity is about. Its a FAITH not a religion and therefore requires its believers to have FAITH. Again, as we learn more and more about the human history and we find more ancient documents the bible gains more validity through time. I have yet to have one person point out a lie in the bible to me... The burden of proof is on the non believer to change the mind of the believer. Christianity is a life style and a belief and you cannot convert someone to become a christian because it is that persons own freewill choice to believe in this faith and to try to live by Christ's teachings. *

reply to post by lpowell0627


The story of Noah and the great flood is a bunch of nonsense. This biblical story is a copy of the Egyptian Epic of Gilgamesh. If this biblical world-wide story was an actual HISTORIC event, than how is it true that Egyptian records continued during this time without ANY interruption whatsoever? Why did this "historic" world-wide flood not flow into Egypt?! Hmmm, so much for the biblical WORLD-WIDE flood story being actual HISTORY!

The bible is a ridiculous work of plagiarism to say the least. Foolish religious folks buy into this extreme nonsense without questioning anything or studying REAL history. Quite disturbing.

Originally posted by APOCOLYPSE DAWN

Firstly,

1) You cant prove there is no God! so we are at an en-pass and agree to disagree.

2) Creation cannot be dis proven as well. Yes, the bible is a book written through men. Like you who type through a keyboard on your computer. Did your computer think and write your replies for you?.... the answer is NO! you did and the computer was merely a vessel in which you were able to communicate to other computers. The Bible is a book which was written Through man to speak to man. Not by man to man... if your understanding about Christian faith was strong and knowledgable you would already know that.

3) Noah's Arc has actually been mathematically proven to work. If you need to I can put together a little math lesson and teach you why the Arc was actually big enough to house the animals giving the historical account more validity. The Flood was actually proven giving the historical account again more Validity. Not to mention that there have also been reports throughout history of people seeing part of the Arc in the mountains surrounding Mt. Ararat as well as pictures. Due to the Turkey Gov. declaring it sacred land no-one is allowed to travel up the mountain to excavate the sites.

*These are the cornerstones of Christianity????

I think you need to actually learn what true Christianity is about. Its a FAITH not a religion and therefore requires its believers to have FAITH. Again, as we learn more and more about the human history and we find more ancient documents the bible gains more validity through time. I have yet to have one person point out a lie in the bible to me... The burden of proof is on the non believer to change the mind of the believer. Christianity is a life style and a belief and you cannot convert someone to become a christian because it is that persons own freewill choice to believe in this faith and to try to live by Christ's teachings. *

1) I also can't prove that the universe was created when a giant purple space turtle farted...doesn't mean I have to believe in it. DUCY your logic doesn't make sense? Of course I can't disprove the non-existence of something...

2) You just CLAIM that someone/something tried to pass along a message through the bible...you can't KNOW that because there is NO proof.

3) Oh, now I'm curious, please present me with your proof that there was a global flood and someone packing ALL animals (2 of a kind) into a boat with only his family.

You are wrong btw. If you BELIEVE something, you HAVE to prove it...and it's not up to those disbelieving to do it. According to your logic, everyone could claim anything without proof and whenever someone criticizes them, they could say "it's up to you to disprove the non-existence of XYZ". You even admit that the cornerstone is FAITH, which isn't based on FACTS. So in essence, we agree that Christianity is based on FAITH and NOT facts. The difference between faith and fact should be clear

Originally posted by MrXYZ

1) I also can't prove that the universe was created when a giant purple space turtle farted...doesn't mean I have to believe in it. DUCY your logic doesn't make sense? Of course I can't disprove the non-existence of something...

2) You just CLAIM that someone/something tried to pass along a message through the bible...you can't KNOW that because there is NO proof.

3) Oh, now I'm curious, please present me with your proof that there was a global flood and someone packing ALL animals (2 of a kind) into a boat with only his family.

You are wrong btw. If you BELIEVE something, you HAVE to prove it...and it's not up to those disbelieving to do it. According to your logic, everyone could claim anything without proof and whenever someone criticizes them, they could say "it's up to you to disprove the non-existence of XYZ". You even admit that the cornerstone is FAITH, which isn't based on FACTS. So in essence, we agree that Christianity is based on FAITH and NOT facts. The difference between faith and fact should be clear

HAHA "DUCY" I love it! no one has ever called me DUCY before

1) Even with the modern Scientific THEORIES today we cant prove that the Big Bang Theory is absolutely 100% fact. I will give you a simple example... Up until 2008~2009 the science community believed that the universe was slowing down and thus one of the contributors to the Big bang theory. However, in 2008~2009 the Scientific community has now realized that the universe is actually speeding up in its dispersion rate. Something that was considered absolute FACT is now wrong even in our scientific community. So I give you this question: How do we know what is really a fact when even our greatest minds are wrong? Proving whether a purple space turtle fart created our world is irrelevant and no one is forcing their belief on you. If you want to believe the purple space turtle farted and created the universe then by all means believe that... it is your right as a human being.

2) Ok now you are making no sense. The bible is here, it has a message, it has an author, that stated author is God through man. The new testament preaches this.

3) If your a science geek read this article it helps to prove the flood in scientific terms: (I had to read it twice to make sure I even knew what it was talking about)
www.globalflood.org...

There is also the fact that many scientific minds agree about the Pangea theory. which, gives validity to the flood.

There is also dozens of accounts of the flood in countries all across the world and on different continents. In places that the bible makers would have never traveled to ummmm like South America and Far East Asia or what about the southern region of Africa... All these places have accounts of this event in their history. Giving fact that a flood did happen. The Account that is in the bible is the oldest account of that story therefore I take it as the original account.

To answer your question quickly while im at work about the animals take a quick read here:
Is the Ark Big Enough?


** What I believe is what I believe you can take it or leave it. What I believe is infact backed up by truth and fact. The flood did happen and just like the theory of the universe slowing down it will remain true until proven otherwise.

Believe what you want my friend... Also, When did I say the Corner stone was Faith? That was not what I typed and is not what was quoted by you. Faith is the breach Gap that keeps us going when the answers are not apparent to us. It does not mean the answer/facts arent there. They are just beyond our grasp of knowledge.

Again show me where the BIBLE lies and has been proven WRONG historically... That has yet to be shown...

Same arguments from both sides; prove your god exists, no you prove my god doesn't exist. Atheists know theists can't prove god exists and thus they enjoy ruffling the feathers.

One thing that angers me however is the fact that atheists never acknowledge anything we can't perceive with the five senses. If it seems out of the ordinary we must deny until we can perceive it.

Sure, I can't prove that my God exists with real evidence. But I have personal evidence which, to me, proves that there is a force far beyond chance at work in this universe.

Now, you may believe me or not it is entirely up to you.

My first experience started early last year. I was defending my religion on ATS against hardcore Atheists. These Atheists had me stumped so bad I had to leave ATS and momentarily my faith.

I prayed to God to show me the way, to give me any sign.

I was walking home from school the next day on a street that is relatively busy. I had a gut feeling about something which I couldn't put my finger on, which led me to look around. There were no cars or pedestrians in my view, and I mean I looked around good. I began to put my head down and continue my brisk walk. As I put my head down I was startled by a car honk.
I looked over and there was a white van that said "Jesus Saves".

After that day, I started getting little Christian signs. My logical side was thinking coincidence, as to most of you right now. But I started getting more and more signs that week until I started believing again.

5-6 months later, I am on ATS and sure enough more Atheists bashing! I thought I was done with Christianity for good. I prayed and asked God to send me a sign and I will continue believing regardless.

Next day, there was a pamphlet about Jesus in my mailbox. You guys may think these are just random coincidences but the feelings I was getting were overwhelming. It was enough for my to strengthen my faith to the point where I let people who think they know talk.

Point of my story:

Christians, keep your faith, love your God, and love your neighbor. Don't argue with people about religion because there is no way to prove the existence of something which we can't begin to comprehend.

Don't feel the need to always argue because there is no evidence for our faith.

reply to post by Equinox99


thanks for your outlook Equinox!

Keep the faith brother!

Originally posted by APOCOLYPSE DAWN
The burden of proof is on the non believer to change the mind of the believer.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
You are wrong btw. If you BELIEVE something, you HAVE to prove it...and it's not up to those disbelieving to do it.

i have to interject.
i think you are both in error on this particular point.
and i say that not in a criticizing attitude toward either of you but more along the lines of logic and semantics ( & is it even possible to mix those two?? LOL )

when it comes to beliefs, and believing, there is no burden of proof, at all!
all that can ever be proven or disproved is objective data, i.e. "facts."

a belief is not objective in any way!
it is something that is personal and individually unique and is based upon feelings, ideas, and personal experiences, all of which are subjective data, i.e. "opinions."

i put both those words in quotes because i'm not necessarily calling anything fact, opinion, or other - those words just work for my little dissertation, here.
how can i prove to another something which i believe? it's impossible.
if you believe what i believe, it isn't because i proved it to you but rather that you have an inner conviction within you that applies only to you.

two people may believe the same thing but each has their own belief.

if that makes sense.

reply to post by Davood


I couldn't agree more Davood.

There is wisdom in these books only if we do not take them as being perfect and the material contained within is definitely not applicable to all times.

Just look at some of the absurdities in the Bible, stuff about killing women who aren't virgins when they get married and people who work on the Sabbath being put to death. Could you imagine having to execute someone on a charge like that today?

No sacred text is truly sacred in my opinion, though of course others have a right to claim otherwise. It is certainly true that none of these books are historically or scientifically accurate or else we'd have elaborate explanations of gravity or general relativity in them instead of absurd stories claiming light and dark day and night were created BEFORE the sun as part of a week long magic trick.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Davood

 

I couldn't agree more Davood.

There is wisdom in these books only if we do not take them as being perfect and the material contained within is definitely not applicable to all times.

Just look at some of the absurdities in the Bible, stuff about killing women who aren't virgins when they get married and people who work on the Sabbath being put to death. Could you imagine having to execute someone on a charge like that today?

No sacred text is truly sacred in my opinion, though of course others have a right to claim otherwise. It is certainly true that none of these books are historically or scientifically accurate or else we'd have elaborate explanations of gravity or general relativity in them instead of absurd stories claiming light and dark day and night were created BEFORE the sun as part of a week long magic trick.

This is an Excellent example of how people do not partake in the proper study of historical texts. the whole stoning women thing was written some 2000+ years ago back when that behaviour was acceptable. Everyone likes to quote the old testament and apply it to life today when that text was meant for one group of people and in a certain era of time... The Jews of the old testament! not the people of today! The new testament is the law for today.

When reading the bible please use "exegesis" which means to take out from the script its interpretation of what it say and to whom it speaks. please do not input your own beliefs on the words as they will then become false and loose their original meaning.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by APOCOLYPSE DAWN
The burden of proof is on the non believer to change the mind of the believer.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
You are wrong btw. If you BELIEVE something, you HAVE to prove it...and it's not up to those disbelieving to do it.

i have to interject.
i think you are both in error on this particular point.
and i say that not in a criticizing attitude toward either of you but more along the lines of logic and semantics ( & is it even possible to mix those two?? LOL )

when it comes to beliefs, and believing, there is no burden of proof, at all!
all that can ever be proven or disproved is objective data, i.e. "facts."

a belief is not objective in any way!
it is something that is personal and individually unique and is based upon feelings, ideas, and personal experiences, all of which are subjective data, i.e. "opinions."

i put both those words in quotes because i'm not necessarily calling anything fact, opinion, or other - those words just work for my little dissertation, here.
how can i prove to another something which i believe? it's impossible.
if you believe what i believe, it isn't because i proved it to you but rather that you have an inner conviction within you that applies only to you.

two people may believe the same thing but each has their own belief.

if that makes sense.

lol this could go on and on forever if we go through semantics

to a degree you are right however, beliefs are based on what a person has determined to be true, real and fact. so when someone says they are not going to push their beliefs on someone it means that they arent going to push their determined truths and realized facts on to someone else as an absolute but instead will allow that individual to discover and realize on their own what the facts and truths are to make their own decision. its as simple as that

reply to post by APOCOLYPSE DAWN

the whole stoning women thing was written some 2000+ years ago back when that behaviour was acceptable.

I don't think stoning women would or could ever be acceptable, though I have no doubt it was CONSIDERED such in the same way slavery was.


But that's exactly my point, absurdities and barbarism in the Bible prove it cannot be the word of a perfect God as fundamentalists defend it as such. There's wisdom in the book if you weed through the BS and don't take the stories literally but it is not the Word of God.

If we continue this way, the thread may become derailed

However there are some good points here
my own realization came after doing some philosophy courses focused on te ddevelopment of eastern philosophies

the trend is that philosophies eventually turn into religions and the philosophies that come later, invariably "steal" from the earlier philosophies in ansort of evolutionary way

new philosophies get born because the old one has stopped remaining true to it's cause


Anyways I digress, my point is that general moral values are told through allegory and apply to life in whatever era they were written. This idea is not to argue creationism vs evolution or to debate he existance of a god

my goal is to open a discussion on why and how people don't really act in the ways their religions intended them to

every holy war has been economically driven
the crusades were a prime example of that

assuming Jesus existed and his story wasn't plagiarized from Egyptian astrotheology which was plagiarized from India
i don't think Jesus would have approved of the " holy crusades" or rather "he gold rush to south America"

anyways iPhones are not good for exposition

So people are seriously saying the old testament is less relevant because it's 2000 years old (and because the statements in it are SICK!), but the new testament, being a few hundred years younger is a lot more relevant to our modern society. ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

You are cherry picking whatever parts you like, nothing more, and nothing less. But if God wrote everything, and you don't agree with everything, you are not really following his/her/its teachings. And saying the old testament was written for the people living there in the desert is bull#, the new testament was also written for the same people living in the same area.

I think you may have missed the point

my argument is that religion as it's practiced is "missing the point" there maybor may not be a god, it doesn't matter because EVERY religious text is a copy, an analog if you will, of some original idea, an original intent for peace and love

very few people who "practice" religion are capable of understanding this, instead they seek to promote their philosophies as if they are THE answer and don't seem to be able to engage in real discussion

if the religious leaders and organizations of the world worked together they could rule the world

They are undoing themselves by disagreeing with each other on unimportant things like a cultural bias towards headgear (habits and hijabs) or other stuff

you could argue that the governments of the world might be against religion in order to preserve power

just think what would happen if they all got together and unified religion they would rule the world, yet they can't compromise

what I don't get is the things they won't compromise on are meaningless artifacts of cultural influence born of ages past, we need to adapt

men today have the Internet if they want to look at naked women hijabs dint make sense

nuns and priests who are forced into celibacy are more inclined to deviant behaviour

etc

anyways
getting better typing with my phone