Reports: Israeli ships attack aid flotilla

The demonstrators were prepared for this happen. The only thing they weren't prepared for was video evidence.

www.youtube.com...

It is clear from the circumstances that peace wasn't wanted by the flotilla.

-They were warned not to enter Israeli waters. They were told they could dock and have the aid go through proper channels.
-They continued anyways and when they were intercepted it is pretty dang clear they started beating Israeli soldiers with some pretty fierce force. Force enough that the lives of the soldiers were at stake and they were granted permission to fire.

I agree the blockade should be broken. I can understand both sides, however. I can see the Israeli fears of weapons smuggling and so forth. However, I believe medical aid and food should be something Israel encourages and aids with. However, I do not agree with this type of demonstration against the blockade. Violence never solves anything and only begets more violence. It is a continuous cycle that will never end until one side truly forgives the other.

From the video evidence released so far I think Israel will be absolved of blame in this situation. However, I think rightly this will bring attention to the blockade and hopefully Israel will be forced to seriously change it or break it completely.

Originally posted by Bugman82
The demonstrators were prepared for this happen. The only thing they weren't prepared for was video evidence.

www.youtube.com...

It is clear from the circumstances that peace wasn't wanted by the flotilla.

-They were warned not to enter Israeli waters. They were told they could dock and have the aid go through proper channels.
-They continued anyways and when they were intercepted it is pretty dang clear they started beating Israeli soldiers with some pretty fierce force. Force enough that the lives of the soldiers were at stake and they were granted permission to fire.

I agree the blockade should be broken. I can understand both sides, however. I can see the Israeli fears of weapons smuggling and so forth. However, I believe medical aid and food should be something Israel encourages and aids with. However, I do not agree with this type of demonstration against the blockade. Violence never solves anything and only begets more violence. It is a continuous cycle that will never end until one side truly forgives the other.

From the video evidence released so far I think Israel will be absolved of blame in this situation. However, I think rightly this will bring attention to the blockade and hopefully Israel will be forced to seriously change it or break it completely.

I agree with most of your post, however regarding "violence never solves anything" we are to blame for that as a species. We have been a race at war for 6,000 years. If you think that will stop now, think again.

Sad but true.



[edit on 31-5-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by jam321

Your review lacks merit. You yourself answered about Egypt. Guess that wasn't straying in your eyes.

Off topic questions are a control element and I will entertain them only to the extent I believe are topical.

At the point it becomes clear someone wishes to deflect away from the topic of the thread then I purposefully steer back to the topic once that trend identifies itself.

If I answer one question about Anna Nicole Smith it doesn’t mean I want to spend the night talking about her, when it’s a Led Zeppelin thread!

With a military background, i would have never advertised the whole thing and made a big publicity out of it knowing how past incidents have played out.

So clearly they were not thinking in military style confrontation forms then were they.

Yep, which leads to my point. Where is the world? If it were me leading the charge, I would sneak in. If I got caught then I would surrender the boat. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't go back to the drawing board and try to sneak in again.

But to advertise that you are coming?

The reality is if you are about to embark on something that is dangerous and you know you are likely going to be over your head, yes you broadcast the fact that you are, so at the very least you have that little bit of leverage in being able to tell your potential captors, “Look people know I am here, should I just disappear…”.

That is why a non-military person would disclose the fact they were going to undertake a potentially dangerous mission, so they have some little bit of security out of knowing that other people know where they are and what they were doing and who would likely be responsible for their disappearance as a result.

Personally if it were me, I would have sent the aide flotilla in and used it as a diversion to draw off the blockading forces and then waded ashore for a real Douglas Macarthur “I have returned” photo op, after threading the needle the diversionary fleet was meant to open the hole of for me.

Excuses again. Surely, leaders of the world and all their assistants can handle more than one task at a time.

They handle every task that the Pope, the Queens of the United States and the Netherlands, and the Banking Oligarchs and Industrial Titans and Oil Giants give them.

Watch out, we are starting to agree. You see this is the pattern. World gets upset at Israel and worries about the area and then world forgets about the area.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread the incident is designed to draw attention away from the Gulf Oil Spill.

This whole thing has been staged by Israel to create a scandalous loss of life to capture media attention.

I haven't seen such a comical boarding attempt since Pirates of the Caribbean.

IMO, if enough sustained world pressure was put on the US and Israel, the US would have to get in. The only reason that pressure is not there is because many other governments, including our own, are more interested in other things than the lives in that area.

Actually no they can't. The Chinese military can't run without Western Controlled Oil.

The Russian Military has limited force projection. It's transport fleet of air-craft is old and could never put boots on the ground rapidly enough, and they too would be hard pressed for fuel with their main stock piles back in Russia.

The U.S. has boots on almost every major source of Middle East Oil and the world needs it to run industrialized highly populated cities.

We have that leverage and we have the best force projection for Gun Boat diplomacy.

Unless the world wants to come up with a million ship oar powered viking fleet, militaries are dependent on a plentiful supply of gasoline and oil, and we controll the supply of gasoline and oil practically world wide.

Problem is that the aid workers weren't thinking military. They advertised their intentions rather than sneaking in.

Seriously, would you tell your enemy the time and date and manner in which you are coming over?

First once again, you are admitting that no, they really weren’t thinking in military confrontational terms.

Yet besides the safety factor of advertising where they would be and doing what, the fact of the matter is yes, they do want and need publicity, and to highlight that the blockade of Gaza is still going on.

Most people have a 72 hour retention span of things that are not kept directly in their face.

You have to put things directly in people’s faces from time to time. It’s called the squeaky wheel gets the oil strategy, and Israel uses itself often through the Zionist Israeli Internet Defense Forces, where if you just complain loud enough, often enough, you can use emotional domination to get what you want, or to keep people from at least doing what you don’t want them too.

Yes I would have told them I was coming, and in a manner I wanted them to believe I was coming, as a ruse and as a feint to draw some of their forces off to provide me a real avenue of egress and regress.

I wouldn’t have taken that route myself, but I would have made it look like I was taking that route for those strategic purposes.

What’s the old saying, the best intentions of mice and men often add up to naught?

reply to post by Bugman82


Committing international piracy and having your a$$ handed to you is not grounds for diminishing the original crime -- committing piracy. But I don't believe the Israelis had their a$$ handed to them, after all they killed 20 humanitarians (they wanted more blood but their victims defended themselves). The Khazars are simply seeking victim hood as usual. They messed with uncle (NATO) and hope daddy US can tell uncle not to whip their a$$ for screwing up like the klutz they are.




[edit on 31-5-2010 by TSawyer]

They NEVER entered israeli waters.....why lie??

2nd line

reply to post by Bugman82


Two things, first the ship was not in Israeli Waters. So the Israelis had no authority to board the vessel.

The second thing of course is boarding a vessel uninvited is an act of War or attack.

So it is absolutely not even remotely possible for Israel to claim self defense.

Go down to the nearest marina and start walking on to people's boats without first saying "Permission to come aboard" and see how long it is until you end up with a crow bar upside your head.

Boarding someone's vessel with out their permission is an agressive act, the self defense was on the part of those defending the vessel, not those attacking it.

Laws of the Sea are very straight forward and cut and dry.

Israel broke multiple laws of the sea, and did so at a time when no Israeli Laws or territory had been compromised.

Originally posted by muse7
This has the possibility to escalate into a major conflict, Turkey is no Lebanon..and if Turkey decides to retaliate with military action then this might be World War III unfolding before our eyes.

Oh yea its ok for the turks to cross over into Iraq for some Kurdish target practice. They are on such moral high ground here.

But anyway Israle pulled off a justified security operation. Humanitarian aid....yea right. Maybe this time....sort of a test run. Why oh why pray tell would idiots attact armed soilders and expect some other outcome?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Bugman82

 

Two things, first the ship was not in Israeli Waters. So the Israelis had no authority to board the vessel.

The second thing of course is boarding a vessel uninvited is an act of War or attack.

So it is absolutely not even remotely possible for Israel to claim self defense.

Go down to the nearest marina and start walking on to people's boats without first saying "Permission to come aboard" and see how long it is until you end up with a crow bar upside your head.

Boarding someone's vessel with out their permission is an agressive act, the self defense was on the part of those defending the vessel, not those attacking it.

Laws of the Sea are very straight forward and cut and dry.

Israel broke multiple laws of the sea, and did so at a time when no Israeli Laws or territory had been compromised.

I have alot of respect and admiration for your work on here Proto and will therefore agree to disagree on this issue.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by muse7
This has the possibility to escalate into a major conflict, Turkey is no Lebanon..and if Turkey decides to retaliate with military action then this might be World War III unfolding before our eyes.

Oh yea its ok for the turks to cross over into Iraq for some Kurdish target practice. They are on such moral high ground here.

But anyway Israle pulled off a justified security operation. Humanitarian aid....yea right. Maybe this time....sort of a test run. Why oh why pray tell would idiots attact armed soilders and expect some other outcome?

Committing international piracy in international waters is not a justified security operation. It is a rogue act of terrorism and, well, piracy. If you don't know what piracy means then the least you can do is respect the 20 victims murdered by these terrorists in international waters. Until you learn maritime laws you, nor the Khazars, should condone or practice piracy. You owe it to yourselves to not comment on things you don't understand. Piracy laws are quite clear. International law overrides "Jewish" (Khazar) supremacy and complex.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by TSawyer]

Rahm Emanuel was in Israel last week and met with leaders on Wednesday. He was mainly there to celebrate his son's bar mitzvah.
I wonder if he reminded Netanyahu "You never let a serious crisis go to waste." Example, all eyes of the world are on the Gulf oil mess, so you could probably get away with anything at this point.

I'm mostly kidding

Originally posted by primus2012
Rahm Emanuel was in Israel last week and met with leaders on Wednesday. He was mainly there to celebrate his son's bar mitzvah.
I wonder if he reminded Netanyahu "You never let a serious crisis go to waste." Example, all eyes of the world are on the Gulf oil mess, so you could probably get away with anything at this point.

I'm mostly kidding

There is truth in your post though, atleast logic.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I think any terrorists would be hard pressed to paint such a frightening picture of themselves.

And just what kind of picture does the knife wielding terrorist who slices off the head of his brother paint of himself?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Bugman82

 

Two things, first the ship was not in Israeli Waters. So the Israelis had no authority to board the vessel.

The second thing of course is boarding a vessel uninvited is an act of War or attack.

So it is absolutely not even remotely possible for Israel to claim self defense.

Go down to the nearest marina and start walking on to people's boats without first saying "Permission to come aboard" and see how long it is until you end up with a crow bar upside your head.

Boarding someone's vessel with out their permission is an agressive act, the self defense was on the part of those defending the vessel, not those attacking it.

Laws of the Sea are very straight forward and cut and dry.

Israel broke multiple laws of the sea, and did so at a time when no Israeli Laws or territory had been compromised.

As always PT, thank you for putting it so succintly

I've been arguing much the same thing on several posts within this thread, and people STILL keep making excuses for the Israeli action... Fact is you can't justify the unjustifiable, or defend the indefensible.

This was an act of piracy in International waters... nothing more and nothing less.

Interesting speech

UK Jewish MP stating that Israel are acting like Nazis

"Israel was born out of Jewish Terrorism" Tzipi Livnis Father was a Terrorist" Astonishing claims in the House of Parliament. SIR Gerald Kaufman, the veteran Labour MP, yesterday compared the actions of Israeli troops in Gaza to the Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

During a Commons debate on the fighting in Gaza, he urged the government to impose an arms embargo on Israel.

Sir Gerald, who was brought up as an orthodox Jew and Zionist, said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town a German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

He said the claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants "was the reply of the Nazi" and added: "I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."

He accused the Israeli government of seeking "conquest" and added: "

They are not simply war criminals, they are fools."

Seems history will repeat itself especially if the Jews have turned into the very thing that tried to destroy them in the first place. Which will only cause nations of the world to want to destroy all traces of them from the earth.

Sad state of affairs.

but interesting speech from UK Jewish MP

[edit on 5/31/2010 by Cito]

this is so much more than piracy , what the somalis do is piracy this is a bona fide international incident , up there with cuban missiles , ton king ,hms amethyst etc

This may be the incident that forces the international community to intervene , however i cannot see either side permitting that


That is a fantastic speech above ... very moving

[edit on 31-5-2010 by gambon]

reply to post by Skellon

I have alot of respect and admiration for your work on here Proto and will therefore agree to disagree on this issue.

Well thanks, but what are we disagreeing about?

If you really know my work here on ATS then you know that I worry the good Jews of the world are being set up humpty dumpty like by the Zionists and the Romans that they serve, to basically have Israel function as the Hill that an apocalyptic style war of King of the Hill will be played over to mimic Biblical Prophecy to drive the world to a one world government.

There is no doubt in my mind that many of these events are being manipulated to slowly turn the bulk of the world against the Jews as prophecy states they will be, and to set the stage for a massive battle between Islam and Christianity over Israel itself.

No one will win in that battle, not the Muslims, Christians or Jews anyway.

Curtailing Zionist excesses is essential to stop this plan.

Defending the Zionists is not the same thing as defending the Jews in my humble and considered opinion for that reason. The Jews in fact need defended from the Zionists.

You might want to consider that further.

If you disagree I can respect that, but the truth is 9 civilians are dead tonight at the hands of the Israeli military not their own.

reply to post by Gorman91


Then why is the world sanctioning North Korea? There are rules, and when Israel breaks them, it should also be sanctioned.

I am so sick of Israel getting thrown to the wolves when something happens. The so called "Palestinians" blow up buses, markets etc, and that's just fine. But Israel takes a stand , and everyone starts the "down with Israel" crap.

reply to post by luckrunsout77


You are correct to a point, but Israel committed acts of terrorism 60 years ago. They are now in the present-day thumbing their noses at the international community. Do they deserve to be attacked? No, absolutely not, but there should be something done by the UN.

There seams to be a conflict in where the ships were attacked.

The reports i get is the Israelis boarded the ships 8 miles off the coast in a published military exclusion zone.

Other reports are that it was 8 miles off the coast in international waters.

Most countries in the world now set international waters as 12 miles.
and the anti Israeli people are saying international waters are 3 miles.

And it has long been international rights to set a military exclusion zone off a coast where military hostilities are under way as long as its published in international notice to mariners.
The US did it in Vietnam, Iraq and Cuba.

This means that you enter at your own risk.

I see the UN doing nothing because the UN has a system in place to bring in aid to Gaza.
Plus the military exclusion zone has been on going for years.