15 dead, flotilla fired upon by Israel

Originally posted by onequestion
Hey check it out.

Heh, "world condemns Israel"..

No that is not the world, that is the angry masses, just like on ATS.
I havn't seen ONE serious figure that speaks coherently about the situation YET.

I'm sure there will be, but it will be put on for 'show' just to please these angry masses.

On the long run nothing will change, so I kindly suggest not to hope any world-wide anti-Israeli reaction that will fulfill your fantasies.

Originally posted by XenoStuffz

They DEFENDED their ship from a hostile takeover in international waters.

Exactly.

If a US Cruise Ship in International waters were attacked and boarded by North Korean Commandos, and the passengers, armed only with knives, fought back, would they be criticised for doing so and the Koreans be defended for their actions?

Or would people be calling for a nuclear attack on Pyongjang?

Different values?

When talking with a lebanese canadian boss during lunch one day, the topic of war with Israel came up. His eyes got this glaze that I had never witnessed before. Being a canadian I guess we're pretty sheltered from the conflicts that take place elsewhere. Anyways, he shared a few very disturbing stories, one included watching hezbollah members drag a so called isreali collaborator out into the street and riddled his body with nearly 100 AK bullets in front of his screaming, distraught, family.

I asked a few more questions and he simply stated that both sides are morons. I respected that man plenty, even more after hearing that from him.

Or maybe all these people on the boats, armed with only knives, were planning on landing at Gaza and then staging a full blown invasion of Israel?

700 men with knives against the Israeli army?

Originally posted by XenoStuffz

Originally posted by SparKzzz

Several suggestions were offered to them on a silver plate to have this examination done PEACEFULLY.

Please elaborate!

I've done so numerous times in this thread, but I'll do it again, with pleasure.

1. The Israeli government has offered the flotilla's captains to disembark in Ashdod's port to have the cargo examined. The flotilla refused.

2. The IDF has warned the flotilla that they will not let them break the naval blockade and kept suggesting them to dock at Ashdod and from there continue to Gaza with all the aid they carry as long as there will not be any weapons transferred. The flotilla refused.

3. The IDF navy ships have warned the flotilla several kilometers before they reach Israeli waters that they will not let them pass, and issued CLEAR and OBVIOUS warnings to either stop or turn around. The flotilla refused.

4. The IDF planned to land several soldiers inside the ships not to take over, but to force the ship to navigate to Ashdod instead of heading straight to Gaza with the cargo unexamined. The flotilla agreed, or more exactly 5 ships agreed, one of the ships had a foreign hostile organization in it that disturbed the peace and attacked the soldiers from the moment they set foot on the ship.


This is when it turned violent as soldiers almost lost their lives, some were even thrown off the ship's top hall.

Here's my elaboration, hope you enjoyed.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Originally posted by redblue

I asked a few more questions and he simply stated that both sides are morons. I respected that man plenty, even more after hearing that from him.

I think he's right

Originally posted by Essan
Or maybe all these people on the boats, armed with only knives, were planning on landing at Gaza and then staging a full blown invasion of Israel?

700 men with knives against the Israeli army?

Don't be retarded. Nobody was scared this pitiful bunch of people are going to INVADE Israel.

The fears were due to past events where ships have unloaded weapons (short-medium range rockets) onto Gaza that reached the hands of Hamas, a world-widely known terror organization.

It's getting pathetic, this whole effort of making it look innocent.

Just admit it. There is a way to get aid into Gaza in a normal accepted way, if they TRULY wanted to.

I think it's obvious even to the most avid Israeli-basher in here that this whole flotilla was nothing besides intentions of making Israel look bad.

They were looking for such conflict to happen, and they got it.
It's up to average joes now to take the decision on to themselves whether to buy this junk propaganda or to get real for a change.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

reply to post by XenoStuffz


Point your AAA north and shoot anything coming from that direction. The point is the Turkish Navy vowed to protect the next shipment, giving Israel the air option with little or no fighter coverage over the Navy. After a few hundred miles how much loiter time does a Turkish jet aircraft have, refueling would be dangerous too, those ships are sitting ducks if the Israels wish to wipe them out!

I have to post this as this always describes the situation in it's truest form:

Originally posted by icepack
i have to say something to advocate for israel, israeli authorities offered the flotilla to go to an israeli port and get the cargo checked (for weapons i suppose). the flotilla denied and carried on their journey towards gaza.
i think this info gives you a better perspective of the situation.

In international waters nobody is obligated to accept any port offers. And when they refused, nobody should be killed just because they don't want to go to a certain port. What kind of backward logic is that? Oh yeah, Khazar logic. I warned the world about Khazars and their uneducated fans.

Originally posted by TSawyer

Originally posted by icepack
i have to say something to advocate for israel, israeli authorities offered the flotilla to go to an israeli port and get the cargo checked (for weapons i suppose). the flotilla denied and carried on their journey towards gaza.
i think this info gives you a better perspective of the situation.

In international waters nobody is obligated to accept any port offers. And when they refused, nobody should be killed just because they don't want to go to a certain port. What kind of backward logic is that? Oh yeah, Khazar logic. I warned the world about Khazars and their uneducated fans.

Oh the Khazars thing again. Shut up.

I'll tell you what logic it is.

You don't want to dock in the port I've offered? Fine, then turn away 'cause you ain't getting into my waters.
Don't want to turn away? I'll make you turn away, 'cause this ship with this unexamined cargo ain't getting in. CLEAR?

Hope this message is better.

TO END THIS INTERNATIONAL WATERS DISPUTE ONCE AND FOR ALL

www.icrc.org...

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.


www.lawofwar.org...

7.7.4 Breach and Attempted Breach of Blockade. Breach of blockade is the passage of a vessel or aircraft through a blockade without special entry or exit authorization from the blockading belligerent. Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade, and for vessels exiting the blockaded area, continues until the voyage is completed. Knowledge of the existence of the blockade is essential to the offenses of breach of blockade and attempted breach of blockade. Knowledge may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification provided to affected governments. It is immaterial that the vessel or aircraft is at the time of interception bound for neutral territory, if its ultimate destination is the blockaded area. There is a presumption of attempted breach of blockade where vessels or aircraft are bound for a neutral port or airfield serving as a point of transit to the blockaded area. Capture of such vessels is discussed in paragraph 7.10.

Now really, SHUT UP about it.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

The point is the flotilla should not have been forced to go through "regular channels" to get aid in Gaza. Israel is not Gaza 's master, and continuing to blockade Gaza will only serve to legitimize Hama's hold over the people there (giving them reason to keep them in power) and their hate towards Israel. Besides, if Hamas really wanted aid in the form of weapons, I'm sure they could figure out a smarter way than having them shipped on a very public flotilla humanitarian mission.

reply to post by SparKzzz


Well done!

wait. . one small problem with your logic:

UN rights chief: Israel's blockade of Gaza illegal

GENEVA (AP) — United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay today accused Israel of violating the rules of warfare with its blockade stopping people and goods from moving in or out of the Gaza Strip.

Pillay said the Gaza blockade amounts to collective punishment of civilians, which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.

She cited the conventions' requirement that "no protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."

The convention also bans reprisals against civilians under occupation and their property.

Pillay urged Israel to ease restrictions immediately "with a view to the complete lifting of the blockade and other restrictions."

www.philstar.com...

Originally posted by bigbomb456
The point is the flotilla should not have been forced to go through "regular channels" to get aid in Gaza. Israel is not Gaza 's master, and continuing to blockade Gaza will only serve to legitimize Hama's hold over the people there (giving them reason to keep them in power) and their hate towards Israel. Besides, if Hamas really wanted aid in the form of weapons, I'm sure they could figure out a smarter way than having them shipped on a very public flotilla humanitarian mission.

Nobody wanted to force them through regular channels because he thinks he's their master. But because there has to be some precautions while dealing with smuggling of weapons.

Nobody asked anyone to bow down and show appreciation so you can stop with the unneeded drama.. the only think Israel asked is to dock at ashdod.

Guess what, Gaza boarders with Israel and it is extremely easy for Hamas to shoot almost anywhere in central Israel with their missiles which are easy to smuggle.

Nobody is trying to play boss or king, but only trying to protect itself.

If you think that's too much then tough luck mate.

reply to post by SparKzzz



Would the flotilla count as a merchant vessel, if the cargo it carried was not meant for trade of any sort, but rather as donated aid?

Originally posted by clay2 baraka
reply to post by SparKzzz

 

Well done!

wait. . one small problem with your logic:

That article does not disapprove anything of the ROE's I've attached.
That article simply says there is a blockade in Gaza, and the UN suggests it is illegal.

Guess what, the UN have also said the attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor is illegal. The UN isn't an allmighty source of justice, and there's a reason why it is considered a joke in the eyes of many countries.

What I've attached are simple ROE's that belong to an agreement Israel isn't even signed on, yet they still followed it.

It doesn't matter if the UN thinks the blockade is illegal or not, the law premits anyone entering a blockade and refusing to turn around - to take over it's ship.
Fact.

Originally posted by bigbomb456
reply to post by SparKzzz

 

Would the flotilla count as a merchant vessel, if the cargo it carried was not meant for trade of any sort, but rather as donated aid?

Yes.
And even if it doesn't count as a merchant vessel, the second paragraph speaks of a vessel, and a vessel only.
No loophole for you in here.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Originally posted by SparKzzz
I have to post this as this always describes the situation in it's truest form:

I agree entirely with your post. Except. . . Both sides are doing the poking while screaming at the rest of the world how they are being bullied.

Both sides are idiots!

That being said, that does not forgive the illegal boarding of an aid vessel with an international contingent. Perhaps the European lawmakers helped stash the rockets, or the holocaust survivor. . ?

Give me a break.

Ther Israeli propaganda on here is shocking. They seriously get EVERYWHERE don't they?

None of us can trust a single word any person says in defence of Israel. They lost the ability of denial for anything when they claimed they were not using White Phosphorous to attack Gaza.

They repeat the same old BS every time. Their method is the same constantly, attack, deny, discredit, attack, deny, discredit, attack, deny...

After seeing Israel in the way I have over the last couple of years, I truly believe it is one of the most dangerous and dispicable governments on Earth.
I actually used to defend their right to prevent attacks from Hamas.

It's a sick government, and I really hope my UK government actually makes a stand here and kicks them out.

Well done Israel, you've successfully made a few more million people hate you.

So we all know by now the story behind the attack.
I would like to present this clip, from the thermal cameras aboard a boat filming the attack on the boat.



The thing is, humanitarian activists can't fight like that.
Under many international resolution and the Geneva convention "humanitarian aid cannot be delivered using violence". This is a paradoxical situation where the people on this boat used a disguised humanitarian effort in order to inflict violence upon Israel.

There were 6 ships, carrying 10 thousand tons of aid if I'm not mistaken.
5 of the ships were approached and told they could hand over their aid and after security clearing it would reach Gaza.
5 ships complied, they are now peacefully on their way home with their humanitarian mission accomplished.

Then boat 6, that before approaching Israel had a rally on board saying that they are willing to die a myrtle death (typical).
When Israeli commandos dropped in to a peaceful, humanitarian love cruise it was not expecting a resistance like the one they were greeted with, in the clip you can see how these soldiers keep drooping in from the helicopter.
Anyone, Anywhere must admit that that was a brave feat.

In conclusion, the terrorists aboard were not there to help Gaza, they were there for more violence, they love it.



Humanitarian mission my #


[edit on 31-5-2010 by NoamC]