15 dead, flotilla fired upon by Israel

Originally posted by SparKzzz

Yeah, take it easy.
Just show me the little bit of proof needed to convince me that what you say is true. I don't demand specific details like you try to put it.

All I'm asking is a proof that will show me that there was a casualty before Israeli troops landed. Or anything else that will say Israelies shot at the ships from a-far.

I have so far provided proof for my claim. The soldiers didn't shoot a single bullet before landing on the ship and meeting heavy hostility and violence. One got thrown off of the top floor of the ship to it's bottom.

When you are hitting an armed force expect the armed force to retaliate. Soldiers went aboard the other ships aswell, was there any casualty in ANY of them? No, there wasn't. Why? Because there was not a violent uproar in any of them.

Don't try to make things complicated and say I'm asking for difficult things. You guys said you KNOW people have died before the IDF has landed on top of the ships, so please support the proof.

I present the videos once again and STILL demand proof for the lies you spread:

Please privode the damned proof and get it over with.
...I'm assuming you'll avoid it once again and claim I'm asking for too much.

Anyway this was indeed a succesful flotila that has achieved what it wanted - A headline.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Since you claim I am avoiding something or the other, can you please point out 1 instance on this or any other board where I said that there was a casualty BEFORE the troops landed?
You are trying to obfuscate the discussion, a tactic used when your narrative isn't supported by the facts.
While some may applaud your subtle deceptive rhetoric, please refrain from spreading untruths about anything I have posted.

reply to post by area6


So pirates don't actually attack ships, they only block them until a ransom is paid?

Originally posted by Counttrarian

Originally posted by SparKzzz

Yeah, take it easy.
Just show me the little bit of proof needed to convince me that what you say is true. I don't demand specific details like you try to put it.

All I'm asking is a proof that will show me that there was a casualty before Israeli troops landed. Or anything else that will say Israelies shot at the ships from a-far.

I have so far provided proof for my claim. The soldiers didn't shoot a single bullet before landing on the ship and meeting heavy hostility and violence. One got thrown off of the top floor of the ship to it's bottom.

When you are hitting an armed force expect the armed force to retaliate. Soldiers went aboard the other ships aswell, was there any casualty in ANY of them? No, there wasn't. Why? Because there was not a violent uproar in any of them.

Don't try to make things complicated and say I'm asking for difficult things. You guys said you KNOW people have died before the IDF has landed on top of the ships, so please support the proof.

I present the videos once again and STILL demand proof for the lies you spread:

Please privode the damned proof and get it over with.
...I'm assuming you'll avoid it once again and claim I'm asking for too much.

Anyway this was indeed a succesful flotila that has achieved what it wanted - A headline.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Since you claim I am avoiding something or the other, can you please point out 1 instance on this or any other board where I said that there was a casualty BEFORE the troops landed?
You are trying to obfuscate the discussion, a tactic used when your narrative isn't supported by the facts.
While some may applaud your subtle deceptive rhetoric, please refrain from spreading untruths about anything I have posted.

Not accusing you of anything actually. I was replying to that other dude, Ken10 I believe his name was.
It was you that interrupted our discussion so I had to reply to you aswell.

This is the exact post I'm talking about.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm not out to get you so stop your hysteria.

BTW, Everything I said is supported by facts and video proofs. I'm not the one talking out of my ass due to being angry like 95% of this thread so don't misjudge.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

reply to post by SparKzzz


No in that perspective it's not hard to comprehend. But I don't think it's as simple as that.

They had to do something to aid those people. No matter what, they would still be blocked by a blockade on the sea or a dock. They would not have let any cargo through. If that's all they needed to do than they would have took the order to let them check for suspicious cargo. I don't think that there that ignorant and at the same time are trying to help people.

Keep in mind that these people do more for others then for themselves. Risk taking is part of trying to change a situation with good intentions.

Now if israel was scared because maybe they wanted to bring weapons to fight for "freedom" in Gaza than that's something else.



[edit on 31-5-2010 by AquaTim84]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by AquaTim84]

reply to post by icepack


They would not have less legal rights to do that, if they asked them to enter port in Hobyo, Somalia.

They committed piracy and killed someone in the act.

reply to post by AquaTim84


They ordered them to enter an Israeli Port. That is not a security check, that is a de-facto confiscation of the goods. It is a calculated act of political piracy to enforce an illegal siege.

Originally posted by AquaTim84
reply to post by SparKzzz

 

No in that perspective it's not hard to comprehend. But I don't think it's as simple as that.

They had to do something to aid those people. No matter what, they would still be blocked by a blockade on the sea or a dock. They would not have let any cargo through. If that's all they needed to do than they would have took the order to let them check for suspicious cargo. I don't think that there that ignorant and at the same time are trying to help people.

Keep in mind that these people do more for others then for themselves. Risk taking is part of trying to change a situation with good intentions.

Now if israel was scared because maybe they wanted to bring weapons to fight for "freedom" in Gaza than that's something else.

There is nothing wrong with aiding the people of Gaza. In-fact, there is a known way to do so and it is to join in with the UNRWA and donate with food, money or anything you'd like.

Other than that, you can try to gain publicity by declaring you are about to break a naval blockade (pfft yeah right) and storm your way into aiding the people of Gaza.

Seriously, if they wanted to help them so much, they would've answered the request to dock at Ashdod and have the ship's examined. Why didn't they do it? Because they WANTED a conflict. These "peace keepers" wanted to get to the headlines and bring shame to the Israelies via the global media.

They are actually the winners of this conflict because this is exactly what they had in mind, even better.

OFCOURSE Israel was afraid of weapons going into Gaza, why else would it prevent it from going there? Does it prevent the UN delegations from entering Gaza? NOPE!

You think Israel didn't know the whole world is following the events of the flotilla? It sure have! You think it serves ANY purpose to Israel to shoot these people dead? No it doesn't.
The soldiers shot ONLY after being attacked and thrown off the top of the ship, and yes, they HAD to inspect the ship and go on it because the flotilla DIDN'T listen to the requests and ORDERS to halt or to dock at Ashdod.

I'll bring the video once again to show the hostility the soldiers met, and even that wasn't enough for them to use their EMERGENCY PISTOLS.

Did I mention they brought paint guns to DETER them, and that was the original purpose? Yes I have. Is anyone listening? Apperantly not.


So please be rational.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Originally posted by rationaluser
Are you telling me that the "superior" Israeli offense force couldn't draw up a plan to land on the ship and controll the situation i didn't see any riot shields on that ship i didn't see any flashbangs or cs gas to disperse crowds and i see the fail that is dropping commando's in BY CHOPPER who was the strategic retard that drew up this plan.

In all fairness, when I was watching the live feed, I saw the the commandos storm in equipped with sub-machine guns (contrary to the pistol/paintball gun disinformation in a previous post) and grenade launchers loaded with CS gas which they did employ.

[edit on 5/31/2010 by clay2 baraka]

For all the Israel apologists

The Gaza blockade is illegal, I repeat ILLEGAL

The ships were in international waters

Palestine may not be a sovereign state but its waters are RECOGNIZED

The peace activists specifically chose not to use Israel's channels for the reasons stated above. I will repeat it once again, the blockade is ILLEGAL.

And it is clear that:

The convoy contained no weapons for Hamas
Commandos have plenty of non lethal ways to stop the activists
(rubber bullets, cs gas, tasers, flashbangs ...) But no they had to KILL peaceful people.


There is not a single argument to defend Israel.

Originally posted by TheOracle
For all the Israel apologists

The Gaza blockade is illegal, I repeat ILLEGAL

The ships were in international waters

Palestine may not be a sovereign state but its waters are RECOGNIZED

The peace activists specifically chose not to use Israel's channels for the reasons stated above. I will repeat it once again, the blockade is ILLEGAL.

And it is clear that:

The convoy contained no weapons for Hamas
Commandos have plenty of non lethal ways to stop the activists
(rubber bullets, cs gas, tasers, flashbangs ...) But no they had to KILL peaceful people.


There is not a single argument to defend Israel.

Blockade Shmockade. Want to aid certain people? Join in with the UNRWA or the UN delegations that go in Gaza MONTHLY to bring TONS of aid material (some of it is used to make altered weapons but meh..)

Want to be a clown and risk yourself? Go ahead and try to block the Israeli naval blockade.

That's all there is to say to people that think like you.

are you kidding me ? you really want to image the seizing of the ship like a bunch of monsters, bloodthirsty, just entered the ships to kill people and that because they have fun doing it.
you are painting a picture that cant be real.

Originally posted by icepack
are you kidding me ? you really want to image the seizing of the ship like a bunch of monsters, bloodthirsty, just entered the ships to kill people and that because they have fun doing it.
you are painting a picture that cant be real.

They are painting a picture they WANT to paint.
They ENJOY thinking this way.

For all that matters, to them, the Israelies woke up today with a single thought in mind - to prevent aid going into Gaza and kill as many peace activist possible.

What they don't realise is that Israel has enough force to blow the entire pathetic flotilla to heavens and back if it wanted to, but no, it risked the lives of it's own soldiers by going in the ships.
And how do the "peace activists" welcome these attempts to make this whole event go through peacfuly? they start hitting the soldiers.

WELL GOOD MORNING VIETNAM, havn't you learned NOT to hit a man in an armed force? If you havn't than tough luck, that's what coming at you.

Originally posted by clay2 baraka

Originally posted by rationaluser
Are you telling me that the "superior" Israeli offense force couldn't draw up a plan to land on the ship and controll the situation i didn't see any riot shields on that ship i didn't see any flashbangs or cs gas to disperse crowds and i see the fail that is dropping commando's in BY CHOPPER who was the strategic retard that drew up this plan.

In all fairness, when I was watching the live feed, I saw the the commandos storm in equipped with sub-machine guns (contrary to the pistol/paintball gun disinformation in a previous post) and grenade launchers loaded with CS gas which they did employ.

[edit on 5/31/2010 by clay2 baraka]

I suppose you have got the eye to spot a pain gun version immitated to an exact M4A1 rifle with a 1/1 scale, through a #ty quality-low bandwith-live stream.

Don't make me LAUGH.

Originally posted by Gorman91
It's a blockade. You try to pass it, you get shot. This was stupid.

Also I love how everyone is like "BAH, ISRAEL TRUE COLORS", "BAH, ISRAEL WILL PAY".

No. No one will pay. If any of you had any training in international affairs, you would know exactly what is going to happen. Who ever sent the convoy is going to be pissed, bah humbugs back and forth, and then it will be forgotten about within a few weeks. And I guarantee most of you won't even recall this a year later.

Stop getting all up in arms. All this shows is that Israel is serious business and not bending to anyone trying to push it. Which for all intensive purposes, it's pretty cool.

In every war there have been blockades. And blockades do what blockades do. If you don't know what they do, then don't act like this is some kind of war crime or evil act.

This is Business as usual. No change. No war.

If you actually believe this is "Business as usual" I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken. This raises tensions in the Middle East by a LOT and it's not going to go away in a few weeks. If YOU had any training in international affairs you would realize this.

Originally posted by SparKzzz

UGH I'm sick and tired of the international waters arguement.

Sorry for your illness. Doesn't change the fact any, though...

What if they stormed the ships 5 minutes later on, in Israeli waters, would it be OK to you? No, don't be a hypocrite, you'd find something else to whine about.

In Israeli waters? Since they weren't, the point you are attempting to make is fallacious. Hypocrite? Really? Point out where, sir... You'll find, if you bother to look, which I doubt...being easier to call names, that I'm one of the more vocal supporters of Israel. Just not blind to the fact that they screwed this up six ways from Sunday...

International waters or not, they were headed to Gaza shores, a place that not so long ago ships were unloading missiles and rockets at. I'm repeating myself so much and people aren't getting anything.

International waters are open to everyone. Not just those we deem to be harmless. Wars have been fought over this. War of 1812 was largely over this issue. The US went to war with Great Britain over the issue of freedom of commerce, part of which hinged on freedom of movement over the seas. Had that ship been in Israeli waters they could have, by international standards, made the stop. It's their right. Had weapons been found, then all bets are off...they'd have the right to intern the vessel and throw the crew into the hoosegow...no argument from me. But it wasn't in Israeli waters, people died who didn't need to. That's my issue, sir. If that makes me a hypocrite so be it.

Who in their sane minds is going to let a ship dock in it's shoreline? WHO? Name one country that will allow an unrecognized ship to dock wherever it wants without going onboard to inspect it, and I'LL HEAD THERE RIGHT NOW.

You track the vessel. You wait until it's in waters you, or an ally, control by international standards, then, and only then, do you board. That's the way it's supposed to work. You don't just arbitrarily, willy nilly, board it. That is, again, by the strict definition of the term, piracy...

IDF didn't wake up today and said YEAH LET'S GO GET SOME PEACE ACTIVISTS!

No. Probably not. Their timing was, at the least, suspect however... Had they just waited until the boat/flotilla was in their own waters, half this outrage wouldn't be voiced.

It's purpose in this operation was to lead the ships to Ashdod peacefully and have the cargos examined.

I'm as aware of that as you are. The essence of the plan was fine. It's the execution (pardon the pun) that leaves much to be desired...

How else was Israel supposed to convince them not to go DIRECTLY, UNEXAMINED into Gaza to unload unchecked materials? By just asking?

In a word? Yes. Then, you wait 'til they're in your waters to act. You most assuredly don't kill a bunch of folks. The IDF acted in haste, now they get to reap the rewards of that haste. Condemnation by non-Israelis, and some Israelis too, I shouldn't wonder...

Do yourself a favor.

And what favor would that be, pray?

Anyway,

STILL waiting for the proof. ATS credibility going downhill FAST.

ATS credibility isn't an issue. It's an opinion driven site. All are welcome. So long as they abide by a few simple rules.

In all honesty - how many of you have even HEARD about this incident:

en.wikipedia.org...

The french have sinked a greenpeace ship, yet there was not a mess as close as this one in the global media.

Don't go telling me people aren't LOOKING for something to blame Israel about.

Oh yeah btw, local news are broadcasting that any activist that was in prison has been released after interrogation as of this moment.
No verification on the net yet, but just sayin'...

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by SparKzzz

 

Unauthorized area? Since when are international waters an unauthorized area...?

sea, according to this article it was, but I am no expert,

A showdown with the Israeli navy appeared inevitable. Israel's deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, reiterated Saturday that the ships would be intercepted, denouncing the sea convoy as a provocation and violation of maritime laws. Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza after the Islamic militant Hamas seized the territory by force three years ago.

www.jpost.com...

[edit on 013131p://bMonday2010 by Stormdancer777]

In Israeli waters? Since they weren't, the point you are attempting to make is fallacious. Hypocrite? Really? Point out where, sir... You'll find, if you bother to look, which I doubt...being easier to call names, that I'm one of the more vocal supporters of Israel. Just not blind to the fact that they screwed this up six ways from Sunday...

Nice going ignoring my question. You know it, I know it, everyone else know it. If the storming took place several minutes afterwards, when the ship were in Israeli waters (the course set for Gaza goes through Israeli shoreline..) people were still finding other stuff to whine and complain about.

International waters are open to everyone. Not just those we deem to be harmless.

What does that have to do with anything? Why are you ignoring the facts?
Was the flotilla heading for Gaza through Israeli waters?
Hell, they admitted themselves they are intending to break the NAVAL BLOCKADE that is obviously inside Israeli waters. Stop trying to stir the pot.

You track the vessel. You wait until it's in waters you, or an ally, control by international standards, then, and only then, do you board. That's the way it's supposed to work. You don't just arbitrarily, willy nilly, board it. That is, again, by the strict definition of the term, piracy...

Yeah and I admitted that the fact that they stormed the ship 5 minutes earlier, in international waters is problematic. Yet it is problematic only for those that seek on errors 'on paper'. In reality, no differance would've been made if the storming of the ships would've taken place some minutes later.

No. Probably not. Their timing was, at the least, suspect however... Had they just waited until the boat/flotilla was in their own waters, half this outrage wouldn't be voiced.

Don't think so.

I'm as aware of that as you are. The essence of the plan was fine. It's the execution (pardon the pun) that leaves much to be desired...

I've shown the clip several times already, and the execution was fine. It was the bandits INSIDE the ships that attacked first, and you don't go and attack an armed force without getting hit.


Your entire response revolves around the tiny fact that the event happened in international waters. Can you even find any other thing to discuss about other than that fact?
Seems like you can't, and seems like this is your only hope in this arguement - the fact that this happened NOT in Israeli waters.

Answer is simple, they were heading there. It's obvious to everyone including yourself. Resorting to such pitiful reasonings such as the international waters arguement is just logically errorneus.

With that being said, I'd be more than happy to discuss with you anything OTHER the fact that this has happened in intl- waters.

Yeah, I also think Israel screwed this up. If I was the chief-of-arms of Israel I'd go up a helicopter myself, broadcast live to the entire world how I warn the ships to dock at Ashdod or turn back, then after they cross the line between International waters and Israeli waters, I'd bomb the hell out of them.

I guess that would've ended more peacfully.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by SparKzzz]

Am I reading this correctly?


Source: www.waketheflockup.com...
Source: twitter.com...

This is unbelievable, but then again Israel is unbelievable with a lot of things they say and do.


--airspoon