Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

reply to post by sandwiches


Did you even bother to read my posts?... IMO, and I have said this before the God of the bible, and in fact it should be the Gods of the bible are/were other biological beings, the Elohim. But just because some other biological entities helped man evolve, or they might even have brought some of us to Earth does not immediately mean that there is not an all encompassing entity which is part of everything. Think of it as planets being electrons, and the Sun/Suns being neutron and the nucleus, and each atom/Solar System could be part of several Solar systems making up a living cell/galaxy, and each living cell/galaxy being part of an organ of some other biological being. As above, so below. It could be even more complex than that for all we know.

Anyway, perhaps you should read what people write instead of just posting without knowing what the person you are responding to has written.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


With regards to what you have just said... i will use the words of Admiral Akbar (from Return of the Jedi)


"ITS A TRAP"



The reason i say that is because i am guessing that you know i am not going to bother reading it...

Now you may think of me as ignorant for this... and it may mean that i have also fallen into the trap... but allow me to explain...

There are hundreds of long winded studies about the evil of religion... they are two a penny... and for every two a penny study on the evil of religion i can find you another on the pro's of religion and the evil of atheism!!

I have read many such documents and often all these "experts" do is over complicate that which is simple, in a conceited attempt to elevate themselves and their agenda.

Until we learn to stop bashing each other over the head with our own personal ideology (regardless of what that may be) we will always have violence and hatred.

Saying that the word would be less violent if everyone was an atheist if no different to saying the word would be less violent if everyone was a Muslim, or a Christian, or even a Jedi for that matter...

I don’t need to read a 44 page document to reach that conclusion!


[edit on 31-5-2010 by Muckster]

Originally posted by tylermbell
so to conclude; religion is our most ancient form of ethics.

I agree with much of what you say although I'd have to disagree here. Religion has laid claim to ethics and molded them to arbitrary cultural standards, but to believe we could have survived as a species without religiously inspired codes of ethics is a problematic notion. Ethics predate the religions that claimed them.

Originally posted by Muckster

Until we learn to stop bashing each other over the head with our own personal ideology (regardless of what that may be) we will always have violence and hatred.

True science is not driven by personal ideologies or predetermined conclusions. Conclusions are derived from assimilation of data. I have no motive to bash religion and neither do the studies. These studies tell us a lot about the world around us and it's a shame you'd rather operate on assumptions about them rather than taking a few moments to review them. But, I respect your opinion to do as you please.

reply to post by bigbert81


Yes, why do you not tell me of a flourishing communist atheist utopia?

I will be waiting til the end of time.

Sorry, but I know several people that have lived in a couple of the Communist Atheistic societies. I did not need EU's example, I was just stating that I would believe someone that lived under the jackboot of such a system before I listened to some QUASI intellectual that has read Marx.

Hell, even Marx stated that persecution would be required to implement the system. I guess you missed that part of his ramblings?

reply to post by tylermbell

but in all honesty, atheism i feel, isn't something everyone can take. -- while my beliefs are optimistic on certain subjects, atheism in its most real form can be rather cold; that is, without falling into other religious ideological theories like reincarnation and the like.

It doesn't have to be religious. I was a cold atheist. At first I denounced religion and I certainly rejected anyone trying to "save me" or pressure me. I thought "the end is the end", as atheists tend to, for many years. After investigating the history of religion, unified theory, sacred geometry, quantum physics, seeing real evidence of the existence of a soul and finally discovering the fallacy of evolution, my mind has changed completely. Now, I meditate and connect to my spirituality more than ever before and am highly confident that death is not the end. I can recommend a short list of documentaries if you're interested.

Originally posted by romanmel

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by romanmel
Atheists are tortured souls, to be pitied. They have lashed out against the Creator

...It appears that your post and assessment wreaks of the very bigotry and xenophobic attitudes that create the sociological problems referenced in the studies in the OP.

How "peaceful" of you to accuse me (who you do not know) of:

1. Bigotry
2. Xenophobic attitudes

Again, how very "peaceful" of you.

If you act like a bigot/xenophobe, people are going to call you out on that. If you don't want to be called/treated like a bigot/xenophobic, then don't act like one. That's like an ignorant person saying with absolute certainity that the moon is made out of cheese, and then complains when everyone calls him ignorant. Besides, what does this have to do with being peaceful (assuming you aren't a troll)?

reply to post by randyvs


Fair enough.

I have to get going right now, but I would still love to hear where I did make the mistake.

Does "guilt free" not also mean a lack of guilt, resulting in a lack of conscience in regards to:

do what they will

With, as you put it, a "clear conscience"?

I'm still confused, I suppose, as to what you were saying here:

They want a clear conscience to do what they will. Guilt free.

If not that atheists want a lack of guilt (conscience in my mind) to freely "do what they will".

Thank you.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Yes, I must have mis-read or mis-judged. I've been trolling furiously and haphazardly. Sounds like you and I have very similar thoughts.

Originally posted by bigbert81
And here it is, the typical ATS etiquette, one person defending their position by talking down to the other, completely shut off to any other thinking than their own. Blinded with cynicism.

Saying the truth is not "talking down to others"

Originally posted by bigbert81
Not true. A quote by Karl Marx:

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism

Not true? really?... and tell us what does it mean that "peace is the ABSENCE OF OPPOSITION to Socialism"?.... Anyone, and everyone who opposes Socialism must be fought... In case you didn't know LOTS of people don't want Socialism... But again apparently what MArx meant seems to escape you for some reason... I wonder who really wants to IMPOSE their thinking on others....

Originally posted by bigbert81
Spoken like a true moral absolutist.

..... I see, so writing/speaking against INDOCTRINATION is being a moral absolutist.... riiiiight......

Originally posted by bigbert81
Really...

I would LOVE to see where you got this from. Who says is has to be 'spirituality' that bonds people together or gives them empathy? (as it would seem you're implying).

I'll give you a hint on your own lack of morality... You seem to think that forcing people to accept Socialism is a good thing... It was you yourself who gave Karl Marx quote of, and I quote....

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism


Since it seems that you agree with Marx of being a warmonger and making people accept Socialism by force is the only way to have peace, it seems obvious that you lack some morality....

Originally posted by bigbert81
You don't need it.

By your own admission, and responses, yes YOU do....

Originally posted by bigbert81
Being atheist doesn't make you Communist, nor vice-versa. Please stop referencing them like it does.

....Marx was an atheist, Engels, was an atheist, Lenin, Stalin, and every Communist dictator, and or philosopher has been an atheist...

Originally posted by bigbert81
No, not lack of spiritualism either, which you are using to link the two as well, but empathy.

Yes it has, when people don't believe they have eternal souls/spirits they think they can get away with anything in this life, as long as the law doesn't catch them. I am not saying every atheist is like that, but they are more prone to think this way.



[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Yes it has, when people don't believe they have eternal souls/spirits they think they can get away with anything in this life, as long as the law doesn't catch them.

Just as you make the mistake of attributing the evils of totalitarian regimes with atheism, so do you make another mistake of associating atheism with nihilism.

I am sorry to say that many of your arguments so far have been based on extremely faulty premises.

i have just a few thoughts on this topic i'd like to express. i have only read a few pages here but i think the general point is obvious.

coming from a generally agnostic view point influenced by Darwin and natural selection i think i can see both sides of the argument as coming from one basic idea. Selfish self preservation.

most if not all of the genocidal maniacs in history have been driven be ideology which ultimately leads to their own personal struggle for power. religion, belief in gods, atheism, materialism etc. have only been tools and excuses for pushing ahead their own agendas which ultimately is their personal benefit and only theirs. for them the more people on your side, no matter how you convince them(through fear or rationale) the better chances you assume you have to continue on. safety in numbers they say.

but it doesnt end at genocidal maniacs. it goes all the way down to your neighbor, loved ones, the guy on the internet and even you. how far you take is up to you but the general idea is usually to cultivate whatever makes you feel safe and warm as well as what makes you think that the comfort of the moment will be there tomorrow and the next day. for some that even extends to an afterlife.

and as for morality coming from religion ill say what i said to a girl who asked me what stops me from doing anything i want. it all comes down to weighing risk vs. benefit. the idea of consequence and how i emotionally react to it plays a huge part. the thought of seeing a loved one in tears over a lie is simply enough to make me rethink a decision. the idea of retribution from those hurt by me also makes me think if my actions are worth the risk.

to me,ultimately its about how we navigate this life and how we survive. some decide to take risks to the extreme(i.e. genocidal maniacs, murderers etc.) and some like to play it safe. personally, i choose to tread lightly through this life.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

I am sorry to say that many of your arguments so far have been based on extremely faulty premises.

Well I am sorry to say that history has proven you to be wrong. Mankind uses any and every excuse to fight wars, and when they don't have a spiritual moral compass they are even more prone to cause oppression, and suffering upon others to impose their views, and their desires.

BTW, I guess you missed the atheist member who seems to agree with Marx to force Socialism upon people and when there is no opposition against Socialism only then there would be peace... He/she is a prime example of what happens when people don't believe they have an immortal soul/spirit.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Thanks...

Although the research was carried out by Evolutionists... Now, contradictory as it may seem, i am an evolutionist Christian... Everyday i see a constant battle between evolutionist and Christians in America... and while that battle is raging... how can any studies from either side be seen as un-biased when said studies are not promoting their own beliefs so much as trying to undermine their rivals?

Regarding this comment...

It most certainly is. And it should be readily apparent that many religions in America breed a narcissistic attitude in their followers. Many of the people in my area, the "bible belt", wear their religion on their sleeves and measure each other by their level of devotion to their religions.

I must say, even as a Christian myself, i agree with you...

Although I think you will find that it is not the religion per se that cause this problem but the attitude/culture of the people in the first place.

That is why you find that there are many breeds of Christians...

Some judgemental some non judgemental... some rude, some helpful ect...

Just like Atheists, Jews, Muslims etc...

Unfortunately, religion (and other beliefs and ideologies) is so open to interpretation that it can be easily warped to suit one’s own agenda...

But for one group of people to point their finger at the other and say... "many of your people are bad" Reminds me of the old adage regarding stones and glass houses!

Good and bad in everyone my friend


[edit on 31-5-2010 by Muckster]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Mankind uses any and every excuse to fight wars, and when they don't have a spiritual moral compass they are even more prone to cause oppression, and suffering upon others to impose their views, and their desires.

you should really read the hate mail people like Richard Dawkins gets from so called religious people. it'll make you wonder what direction their moral compass is pointed.

Originally posted by homeskillet

and as for morality coming from religion ill say what i said to a girl who asked me what stops me from doing anything i want. it all comes down to weighing risk vs. benefit. the idea of consequence and how i emotionally react to it plays a huge part. the thought of seeing a loved one in tears over a lie is simply enough to make me rethink a decision. the idea of retribution from those hurt by me also makes me think if my actions are worth the risk.

Indeed. Morals are derived as a matter of social contract, not from the invisible cosmic tyrants with a list of behavioral demands. Sadly enough though, there are some people of low intellect that have admitted on this very site that they definitely would behave immorally without the fear of religious accountability. Luckily, those types are extremely rare.

This clearly shows that the "Atheist Agenda" is designed to cultivate a pacified population that is easy to subjugate and control. One reason that radical Islam and La Raza (Latino Catholics) are promoted is to cultivate a disdain for "Religion" as the enemy of the state. People with an inclination towards the spiritual have (varied) inclination towards truth and justice. The RAP effort has some roots in fundamental Christianity but does not restrict itself to such practices. Cultivating a population that tolerates it's subjugation is an important NWO adenda. This will eventually mean the NWO fabrication of yet another pseudo religion but with a total buy in to the state authority.

reply to post by endisnighe


The quote was brought up to illustrate the entire following paragraph I wrote, if you did not understand it, please do stay out of the conversation, as your not-so-clever insults are boring and a perfect negative reflection of the members here at ATS.

I will not get drawn into the same childish put-down match that you are trying to brandish.

I am not defending Communism, just having a debate as to the OP, and saying that the INTENT of Communism when first created was meant as to be a fair and peaceful way, but has been corrupted through human perversion, and has turned into the atrocity we have today, like so many other things. But I don't need to tell you that of course, since you are probably rereading my posts as I asked.



[edit on 5/31/2010 by bigbert81]

reply to post by bigbert81

And where in the world did you get the idea that without God, there is lack of conscience?

Well I guess persistance pays off. If that's how you want to look at it.

A clear conscience in no way suggests a lack of conscience, please thank you. Sorry for my lack of agility in response.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Well I am sorry to say that history has proven you to be wrong. Mankind uses any and every excuse to fight wars, and when they don't have a spiritual moral compass they are even more prone to cause oppression, and suffering upon others to impose their views, and their desires.

No, history indicates precisely the opposite: that religiosity is the source of far more deaths than atheism. Also, you are intellectually dishonest in your claims about totalitarian regimes. Those regimes did not kill with the motivation of atheism, they killed because of statism. Your logic amounts to: "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians with power cause innumerable deaths".

The "spiritual moral compass" is the source of more death than anything else. Right now in theocracies such as Iran and Saudi Arabia death is rampant for violations based on religious codes. America's "spiritual moral compass" dropped nuclear bombs on people. Africa's "spiritual moral compass" results in people still being burnt at the stake for witchcraft amongst other atrocities.

Your premises are not only faulty but your approach to history seems highly selective and based on the exclusion of heaps of historical data.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]