Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

Originally posted by chaosinorder
Just reading through the thread one can see the hatred of religious people for atheists, whereas i dont see the hatred for religious among atheists.

Odd, I don't see that at all. Mostly what I see is people who see a distorted reflection of themselves when they are looking at their opposite number.

There is a sad propensity for atheists to believe that the religious are easily led and refuse to lead a rational life. There is also a lack of recognition amongst the religious that atheists can lead a moral and 'good' life.

Of course, those are blanket statements and should be taken as such and understood as verbal shorthand. I've known many intelligent, reasonable and friendly people on both sides of the debate.

Eric

reply to post by KrazyJethro


Thanks for your reasoned, polite response to my post. I know not all atheists are "tortured souls". You, obiviously were not. It has just been my personal experience that many of the "zelots of atheism" I have encountered seem to have been opressed as such, as I said.

Originally posted by randyvs
It certainly isn't a surprise to me that you wouldn't see narcisism as a
sociological problem.

It most certainly is. And it should be readily apparent that many religions in America breed a narcissistic attitude in their followers. Many of the people in my area, the "bible belt", wear their religion on their sleeves and measure each other by their level of devotion to their religions.

reply to post by EricD

Of course, those are blanket statements and should be taken as such and understood as verbal shorthand. I've known many intelligent, reasonable and friendly people on both sides of the debate

A sharp intelligent post. Of which I do concur.

Drummer

It most certainly is. And it should be readily apparent that many religions in America breed a narcissistic attitude in their followers. Many of the people in my area, the "bible belt", wear their religion on their sleeves and measure each other by their level of devotion to their religions

A very legitmate point.
Can't disagree.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by joeroxor
I dislike when people force belief unto others. Atheism has the ability to turn into organized religion. Be mindful of that.

I can't see that even though many people say this. I don't even see how it is possible. The worst aspect of atheism is the zealot atheist. You know, the ones who sue to get phrases removed from money and so forth. Otherwise there is no central belief system, no messiahs, no fables and no instructions/commandments with which to organize a religion.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by randyvs
It certainly isn't a surprise to me that you wouldn't see narcisism as a
sociological problem.

It most certainly is. And it should be readily apparent that many religions in America breed a narcissistic attitude in their followers. Many of the people in my area, the "bible belt", wear their religion on their sleeves and measure each other by their level of devotion to their religions.

Have you considered that the converse is true as well? I live in New York, outside of NYC and if you are openly religious (especially Christian) you are often looked upon as being intellectually suspect to say the least.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
Have you considered that the converse is true as well? I live in New York, outside of NYC and if you are openly religious (especially Christian) you are often looked upon as being intellectually suspect to say the least.

Eric

Yes, I do understand this is a problem not only in America but in other places as well. Xenophobic attitudes create divisions that contribute to the tribalism that causes problems in society. I agree, it works both ways.

reply to post by randyvs

For someone, anyone to say he does not exist, would require full knowledge of the universe. Anyone who had full knowledge of the universe
would be a God. Atheists only hope their is no God because they would rather think of themselves as God. They want a clear conscience to do what they will. Guilt free. To claim God does not exist is to claim you have full knowledge of the universe. That you are God.=Narcisism.

Nothing said here is true. "Full knowledge of the universe" is not required to make a decision based on whether or not you believe in God, and making the imaginary link between atheism and thinking you are a 'god' is pseudo-logic at it's best.

Reading your post reminds me of a, I believe quite appropriate, quote:

Never Judge a Man Until You Have Walked a Mile In His Shoes

You will also find the majority of atheists do openly admit that there IS a possibility of God, they just don't believe the possibility is high enough to make the conclusion that there is, therefore they choose to not believe.

And where in the world did you get the idea that without God, there is lack of conscience? Morals were formed by society and through childhood learning what's wrong, like stealing and killing, than just magically instilled in us. You will find, should you choose to try seeing things from another's view, that just because you are atheist, does not mean a lack of conscience, as secular humanists are by far the most conscience heavy people I have ever met.





[edit on 5/31/2010 by bigbert81]

reply to post by EricD

Have you considered that the converse is true as well? I live in New York, outside of NYC and if you are openly religious (especially Christian) you are often looked upon as being intellectually suspect to say the least.

So should we see this as just a counter balance of the fragile human condition? Or a sociological problem that can be eradicated through
education? It seems more likely that narcisism is a chemical inbalance in the brain that exists randomly in the genetic code.

Bigbert81

And where in the world did you get the idea that without God, there is lack of conscience?

These are not my words and they never will be. That isn't even a nice try at putting words in my mouth.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by randyvs]

I respect your opinion OP I do agree a lot of countries/ people who claim to be religious are quite violent and barbaric, but that's the thing they just say they are a part of the religion (speaking of Christianity) . They don't really live it though.

Like according to a statistic I just read on about.com it says that the U.S. consists of 85% Christians, but in all actuality that number is quite shady. Because that number is comprised of.

Christians (people who say they follow Christ but there life doesn't reflect the word of god which probably makes 50-60% of that number)

Catholicism (which in my opinion is one of the world biggest cults. It Says right in the bible don't pray to symbols. I could go on and on with their crazy stuff)

Christian based cults (Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, 7 day Adventist, etc.)

Christ followers (which make up probably about 2-3% of the actual population, we are the ones who actually read the bible and don't twist it to our will. which means we don't believe in killing anyone for any reason even if they break into your house you can't do it (it says it right in there). we are also not supposed to participate in government, sue people, and on and on.)

So as you can see people really abuse the meaning of Christian.

Now Muslims on the other hand I would agree are very violent people and quite scary I wouldn't want to live in an Islamic country.
I should also retract my statement about saying Catholicism is the biggest Christian cult too, because in all actuality Islam would take that place which was started by Muhammad, and his whole religion was based off of Christianity, and previous Arabic pagan religions.

I don't agree with your statement saying that atheist are peace loving either though some of the most evil men on earth have been atheist or have held atheistic views.

The Nazi's were atheists, and used Darwin's Idea of natural selection to justify the killing of the Jews.

Quotes from Hitler himself

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....

"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

The Soviet Union an atheistic society lead by Joseph Stalin

There are estimates stating that he killed anywhere from 5- 60 million people in the name of eradicating any opposition.

MAO ZEDONG one of the previous leaders of china.

It has been estimated that he is responsible for killing over 70 million people.

There are countless other individuals/ countries that have been atheists that have been very violent throughout history. So to say atheists are on a different evolutionary plain mentally and are peace loving individuals is quite a stretch.

Originally posted by randyvs

So should we see this as just a counter balance of the fragile human condition? Or a sociological problem that can be eradicated through
education? It seems more likely that narcisism is a chemical inbalance in the brain that exists randomly in the genetic code.

Believe it or not, Dan Dennett (a noted atheist) argues the case that a complete religious education is the key to eradicating xenophobia and promoting respect of cultures. A lengthy video but quite compelling:

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Here are a few quotes I love:

“There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking.”
---Korzybski

I contend we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F. Roberts

Opinions result from perceptions, and perceptions reinforce Opinions, which then further control perceptions, in a repeating loop that logic can never penetrate. (Only a shocking new perception, too strong to get edited out by Opinion, can break this self-hypnotic loop.)
---Korzybski

Believe it or not, Dan Dennett (a noted atheist) argues the case that a complete religious education is the key to eradicating xenophobia and promoting respect of cultures. A lengthy video but quite compelling:

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


What the hell. I'm getting warm fuzzy feelings.
Must be time for an exit.

I have a lot of respect for you drummer. You're a tough fish to hook even
with my best bait. Thank you for sharing the vid.

Over the years i have watched as people, including myself, laugh at these sort of studies... we are bombarded with them daily...

Recent study shows that butter is bad for your heart
Recent study shows that butter is good for you heart

Etc...

We all laugh at them and moan about them... "i'm fed up with these, so called, experts telling me how to live my life" we proclaim in a defiant tone!

That is until its "recent study shows that” i was right all along about my thoughts on particular subject...

Then, suddenly, its... "Hey everyone, you seen this? Even the experts agree"

These days it is so hard to distinguish between good honest research and agenda driven nonsense, designed to keep an ideology afloat, that i just ignore most of it.

I try to use my own common sense and what i have learnt from history, personal experience and self education to formulate my opinions... however, like most people, i do sometimes get caught out by a "recent study show" every now and then!!! LOL


Using my common sense on this topic... Yeah, Atheism does equal peace... just look at Russia and China... their atheist ideologies and the measures they took to violently stamp out religion and persecute all those, who worshiped God instead of state, really did help keep the peace!! And as for Tibet and its religious monks... well they simply provoked China into aggression with their "love of peace" and "spiritual harmony" didn’t they!!! **Sarcasm**

Originally posted by randyvs
I have a lot of respect for you drummer. You're a tough fish to hook even
with my best bait. Thank you for sharing the vid.

Likewise, sir. You always contribute to interesting conversation and can at times be a formidable foe. I always enjoy your participation and I do thank you for your viewpoints.

reply to post by randyvs

These are not my words and they never will be. That isn't even a nice try at putting words in my mouth.

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying here:

They want a clear conscience to do what they will. Guilt free.

But I believed the two (clear conscience/guilt free, and therefore resulting in the lack of) were clearly related enough to make a comment.

And please do refrain from the malicious accusations implying that I am purposefully twisting things around to make them stronger on my behalf.

Feel free to elaborate the differences and where I might have gone wrong, and in a decent way.

Originally posted by Muckster
These days it is so hard to distinguish between good honest research and agenda driven nonsense, designed to keep an ideology afloat, that i just ignore most of it.

You shouldn't ignore it anymore than you should accept the rhetoric you mentioned about experts agreeing.

I posted a study that was published for peer review. You are a peer and should review it. Point out anything you see as flawed, please. I encourage it.

reply to post by bigcountry08

Oh, come on man you're painting and judging as if you were God Himself! Why can't you love and respect all of His creation?

Don't spend so much time labeling and comparing, feeling proud and self-righteous. There are many ways to God, who has no religion. Find a way to accept and love all of His creation, even the would-be enemy. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? Isn't that the way to slay the demon (which is really a demon inside you not them)? With love?

Truth is my religion and science is to the point where we can actually determine the structure of the "God force" that "creates" us. It's like every metaphor in every religious text all coming together into one. Finally, man is able to comprehend the meaning of it all. I find this very exciting!

Thanks to the internet, we can uncover the actual source of all of the various religions around the world. Have you looked for the source of yours? What did you find? (Not attacking, I'm actually curious)

Edit: Rant in response to labeling atheists - I don't know if you're religious or not. My bad.

[edit on 2010-5-31 by sandwiches]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


as me and some of my family are atheists, we find religion to be obviously much more harsh on a person than good. i agree that atheism can equal peace, because it opens up discussion which is far more broader, interesting, and true intelligent debate (philosophy, singularity, science, or even pseudoscience's).

but in all honesty, atheism i feel, isn't something everyone can take. there is little hope in atheism about fear of death, and while false hope on such a large scale as religion is terribly sad; its still hope that helps people get over sickness and smile on their death bed. and while my beliefs are optimistic on certain subjects, atheism in its most real form can be rather cold; that is, without falling into other religious ideological theories like reincarnation and the like.

adding on things like futurist ideology makes things even more grim; but in almost all forms of this combination, one thing that stands out is that for furturistic ideas to come together, religion must weaken; because we are close to things that will test our ethics. so to conclude; religion is our most ancient form of ethics. its holds us down in a stalemate to not try to transcend to a form much like god, which is a powerful and much needed thing in many peoples belief of how we will end ourselves.

all in all, i hope i see a decline in religion in my lifetime, but only because it will happen no matter what; it mainly just depends when, and without any apocalyptic happenings that could happen to strengthen the idea that our path of science and technology is the path of destruction; which based on religion; it pretty much is.

science > mythology

Originally posted by bigbert81
reply to post by randyvs

 

These are not my words and they never will be. That isn't even a nice try at putting words in my mouth.

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying here:

They want a clear conscience to do what they will. Guilt free.

But I believed the two (clear conscience/guilt free, and therefore resulting in the lack of) were clearly related enough to make a comment.

And please do refrain from the malicious accusations implying that I am purposefully twisting things around to make them stronger on my behalf.

Feel free to elaborate the differences and where I might have gone wrong, and in a decent way.

No need to apologise now that I understand that we merely misunderstood
each other.

I'll make a note.