Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

BTW, if a person has no real definition on what spirituality is how can they learn from their own experiences?...

For example, in today's for the most part secular society, where if a person has any sort of spiritual experience, such as visions, that person is immediately labeled as being "psychotic", or having some sort of mental illness, or chemical imbalance.

I have had visions and OBEs since birth. I told no one when I was a child. I understood I lived in a "fake" world. I played the game and bided my time until I could be in charge of myself.

Originally posted by Annee
Logic prevails is my answer. When you can weigh logic against logic there will be peace.

To me there is no logic in fighting over "my god is better then your god" - - and setting yourself up to be a political "group pawn".

I read parts - - will go read again.

Yet that logic can, and has been used to impose ideas on others...such as atheism by force...

Logic can, and has been used to start wars, committ genocides, and committ the worse attrocities ever done by mankind....

It has happened before, and will happen again. Yet i see you trying to claim differently...

Originally posted by chaosinorder


Well man. I'll talk in your method.What proves God?

Well I don't know about you but when i am researching Evolution or physics i can't help but see a beautiful order to it. To me it makes more sense that this order was the result of a deliberate and purposeful action from a concious being of some sort, a god if you will. That coupled with my own personal experiences with what i believe was jesus christ/YhWh Jehova/yeshuah hamaschiach . This has lead me to believe that there is a god or at least a force of some sort that has the characteristics of what we could define as a god. Although i am not certain of the veracity of these convictions and beliefs. To quote carl sagan " Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists…."

The most i can suggest you do is to research evidence for and against the existence of god, to try your hardest to approach information without negativity or confirmation biases. Trust me, i know It is hard to do, especially when you have convinced yourself that your current understanding and convictions are factual and based on logistic merit. For every minute you spend on EvilBible.com or RichardDawkins.com you should spend an equal amount on Deism.com or Answersincreation.com

It is only through YOUR OWN RESEARCH. Not the op-ed articles and manifestos that are the product of other peoples Biases and personal experiences that you will even find a sliver of truth.

I research this subject CONSTANTLY and i have yet to find solid evidence that can independently verify my beliefs for either position.

How does one believe that hasnt been proved?

How has god been disproved?


That's what i would like to know. How can one believe in something that has not been proven? Neither claim has been empirically proven in a controlled enviroment. There is no serious effort being put into investigating either claim. There is much evidence for the existence of god, or at least something that we could define as god. And there is much evidence (allbeit philosophical in nature, much like the evidence for ) that suggests there may be no god.

Here is what i Believe

Billions of people over thousands of years have believed for one reason or another, that means SOMETHING. It's too complex of an issue to definitively prove one way or the other. To claim disbelief without providing evidence to me is antithetical to the whole notion that atheism are somehow magically more rational and logical. Agnostic-atheism is reasonable in that they will make the claim that they are not sure of the existence of a god but due to personal experience and research they have not found a reason to believe in a given theology. Agnostic-Theism ( or better yet, deism) is reasonable in that they claim that they have had personal experiences coupled with personal research that lead them to their belief, yet they maintain that they could be wrong because. They maintain faith yet they do not maintain certainty.

Therfore Gnostic claims such as " god does exist" and "god does not exist" would first require a solid body of work that substantiates these claims.


An absence of evidence does not equate to an evidence of absence.





My dear brother, this issue is not something we can simply dismiss or accept with russels teapots or pictures of jesus in the wood-grain of a door. If we have any hope of finding truth we must both make a concerted effort to humble ourselves and work towards a common goal.

but i guess that is just too wild of a fantasy now isn't it? The hope that one day atheists and theists will attempt to show mutual respect and to try to lend support to each others theories and hypotheses.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Likewise these days freedom of speech is being used by certain groups to try to restrict the freedom of speech of others, and including to destroy the Republic and make it into something it was never meant to be.

what are you talking about?

BTW, I have seen what atheists are trying to do, and it has nothing to do with freedom to choose your religion...it has everything to do with making the entire nation secular/atheist.

although i admit i would enjoy a world with no more religion, im an athiest and im not trying to do anything except live and avoid the various bible thumpers and jehovas witnesses, you know the basic athiest life

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ashanu90]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Atheism gave us Communism. Communism is an atheist, and a materialistic point of view of the world, in which humans are seen as robots without a soul/spirit.

Yet Communism, an atheist belief, has caused more death in the 19th and 20th century than all world wars, and other conflicts from around the world put together.

Actually, I believe that human perversion is in fact the true enemy, as Communism was meant for a more peaceful existence.

It's lack of morality and education which has the potential to pervert most anything.

And here, perhaps you could read up on this a bit:

Humanism

People aren't viewed as robots, rather as people...brothers and sisters.

Also, being atheist does not mean being a Communist, as many Libertarians are atheist as well.

Hitler murdered 6-10 million people, meanwhile Atheists have murdered over 110 million people.

The study is propaganda because atheism has murdered more people in the 19th and 20th century than what all religions, and even world wars and other conflicts combined have done.

Oh, Hitler murdered so many more. And this last statement is extraordinarily short sighted on your behalf, and not true in the least.


Bottom line is, you need to be blaming human perversion instead of whether or not someone believes in God or not.

Originally posted by Annee

I have had visions and OBEs since birth. I told no one when I was a child. I understood I lived in a "fake" world. I played the game and bided my time until I could be in charge of myself.

Yet in a nation and society where you could not inform yourself, because all sort of spiritual books are abolished, and destroyed... in a nation where all forms of spirituality are forbidden because of atheism, you would have never learned what you experienced is all about....

You would have believed the claims of materialistic physchologists who would claim those experiences were chemical imbalances, and or psychosis, or whatever other materialistic excuse they would want to make.

You think you would have been able to understand what those experiences you had were about if you lived in a nation that was atheist?...

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Annee

I have had visions and OBEs since birth. I told no one when I was a child. I understood I lived in a "fake" world. I played the game and bided my time until I could be in charge of myself.

Yet in a nation and society where you could not inform yourself, because all sort of spiritual books are abolished, and destroyed... in a nation where all forms of spirituality are forbidden because of atheism, you would have never learned what you experienced is all about....

I don't read books on this. Everything is internal. I meditate and listen to my own "guides".

I'm sorry you had a difficult time. But you are still confusing Communism with Atheism and vice versa. Communism is being the God and using Atheism as a tool.

Originally posted by bigbert81

Actually, I believe that human perversion is in fact the true enemy, as Communism was meant for a more peaceful existence.

Obviously you don't know much about Communism, since there is a belief that a "permanent revolution" must exist...

Communism is the oposite to a peaceful existence... There must ALWAYS be a struggle, and Communists must always fight against those who want a better way of life, or a different way of life from Communism...

Originally posted by bigbert81
It's lack of morality and education which has the potential to pervert most anything.

Yet education, through indoctrination can also pervert people into believing what a few want the mayority to believe.

When there is no spirituality there is a lack of morality since to such people we are just biological entities like any other.

Originally posted by bigbert81
And here, perhaps you could read up on this a bit:

People aren't viewed as robots, rather as people...brothers and sisters.

Yet even humanitarianism lacks spirituality.

Originally posted by bigbert81

Also, being atheist does not mean being a Communist, as many Libertarians are atheist as well.

No, but Communism is an atheist belief. It was formed by atheists, and it is meant to make nations completely secular, for individuals to lack any form of spirituality.

Originally posted by bigbert81
Oh, Hitler murdered so many more. And this last statement is extraordinarily short sighted on your behalf, and not true in the least.

... I posted evidence to back what I said...

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

www.hawaii.edu...

Originally posted by bigbert81
Bottom line is, you need to be blaming human perversion instead of whether or not someone believes in God or not.

That's part of what some of us have been trying to show the rest of the members who keep claiming spirituality, and or religion are the problem...




[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by Annee

I don't read books on this. Everything is internal. I meditate and listen to my own "guides".

You must have learnt somehow what your experiences mean. Either through your family, by reading books, or some other similar way.

A child seeing spiritual guides most often doesn't know what he/she is seeing.

I remember the first time I saw a being of light, and I was frightened as heck and didn't know what it was.

Originally posted by Annee

I'm sorry you had a difficult time. But you are still confusing Communism with Atheism and vice versa. Communism is being the God and using Atheism as a tool.

I never claimed that all atheists are Communists...what I said is that Communism is an atheist belief. After all it was made by atheists.

BTW, there is no God, none whatsoever, in Communist doctrine. At least in the original doctrines of Communism.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

I never claimed that all atheists are Communists...what I said is that Communism is an atheist belief. After all it was made by atheists.

BTW, there is no God, none whatsoever, in Communist doctrine. At least in the original doctrines of Communism.

OK - got that. Basically - anything can be used in a corrupted way.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

And Atheism not only tries to destroy religions, but any sense of spirituality within individuals. An atheist world would be a world of robots, where people are not spiritual beings, but are only biological and materialistic.

I suppose I would be considered athiest since I don't practice religion.

Since learning about unified field theory, the inifinite fractal nature of reality, quantum physics, etc. I am strongly doubting a God above our Universe. There may perhaps be a "God force", as our bodies impose "God force" on the universes inside us, but I strongly doubt a being outside of our Universe can interact with everything within, "watching us", etc.

A God within our universe - that is, alien creators, seems very likely, but they would not be THE "all-mighty" God but rather simply life forms more advanced than us also bound within this universe.

If an omnipotent God is real then He made all religions and athiests. If that angers you, take it up with Him so you can figure out how to find peace again. (Oh ye of little faith)

To speak frankly, I believe religion is made by man (and/or ETs) and it is essentially mind control so they can predict how masses of people will react to things, play them off of each other for personal power, etc.

That's not to say I avoid religion like the plague. On the contrary - I explore many different religious books, as they often contain historical fact and even advanced hidden scientific knowledge. There is no doubt, however, that these facts have been manipulated time and time again for whatever reason, probably for influence/power when there were two strong priests in the same area . Also, entire religions were created at the same time, with a specific purpose (Christianity,Judaism,Islam)... this is historical fact you will uncover if you look deeply enough.

I can respect practitioners completely as long as they respect me and are truly faith-full... (ie. as long as they are not in constant fear for my soul, which seems to make people constantly urge others to know/accept/love/worship Jesus)

I think to place a book made by man higher than God is a grave mistake. By processing billions of bits of information subconsciously in our brains and by making the choice to observe, I believe we are all quantum creators. Personally, I'd rather not live a life of fear of going to "hell". (Note that I am a very good, generous and compassionate person) Life is a balance between good and bad. If you try to be good all the time, and continually suppress negative emotion, you will snap back to bad. It's just the way it works.

Who needs religion when you can use science to prove we exist in a balancing duality of negative and positive?

Who needs to choose one religion, when a greater truth encompassing them all can be realized?

Do you not find meditation, astral projection, chi, sacred geometry, physics, etc. spiritual? Why can't I be spiritual because I'm not religious?

Thanks

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Obviously you don't know much about Communism, since there is a belief that a "permanent revolution" must exist...

And here it is, the typical ATS etiquette, one person defending their position by talking down to the other, completely shut off to any other thinking than their own. Blinded with cynicism.

Communism is the oposite to a peaceful existence... There must ALWAYS be a struggle, and Communists must always fight against those who want a better way of life, or a different way of life from Communism...

Not true. A quote by Karl Marx:

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism

Marx was intent on peace, and the ideal of a 'permanent revolution' was later warped by Leon Trotsky into what you're trying to express. Marx used this term to express ambition, and Trotsky was the one who believed in an ACTUAL revolution going on somewhere in the world.

Yet education, through indoctrination can also pervert people into believing what a few want the mayority to believe.

Spoken like a true moral absolutist.

When there is no spirituality there is a lack of morality since to such people we are just biological entities like any other.

Really...

I would LOVE to see where you got this from. Who says is has to be 'spirituality' that bonds people together or gives them empathy? (as it would seem you're implying).

Yet even humanitarianism lacks spirituality.

You don't need it.

No, but Communism is an atheist belief. It was formed by atheists, and it is meant to make nations completely secular, for individuals to lack any form of spirituality.

Being atheist doesn't make you Communist, nor vice-versa. Please stop referencing them like it does.

I posted evidence to back what I said...

In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.

www.hawaii.edu...

Yes, it's an easy PDF to find on Google, but you misunderstood my point. How many people have been murdered in the name of atheism? And how many the opposite?

I'm not a Communist, and I do not want to defend Communism, but linking the two, atheism and Communism, does NOT equate to:

atheism has murdered more people in the 19th and 20th century than what all religions, and even world wars and other conflicts combined have done.

No, not lack of spiritualism either, which you are using to link the two as well, but empathy.

your relegion numbers for germany are crap, as in 2007 germany was 63% christian, with 32.3 prostestant 31% catholic and 29.6% atheist.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

After all it was made by atheists

in reference to Communism


Things made by Christians...

reply to post by bigbert81


You know, I think I will take the word of someone that has lived under communism then someone that quotes Marx.

Defending communism? Really? Wow.

Anyway OP, I have this study that shows that atheists are more dangerous than religious folks. It is only about 40,000 pages, care to read?

reply to post by endisnighe


The odd thing is that Communism does not automatically require atheism, the two are not necessarily hand in hand. Also, comparing a place that outlaws faith and religion to countries where a majority of the population HAVE CHOSEN not to have religion doesn't prove the point.

I doubt anyone would sign on to have a government that forces one religion or no religion, everybody wants religious freedom BUT the studies show that in nations where there are a higher percentage of people CHOOSING to be atheist there is actually more peace. This makes sense because in a society dominated by differing religious views there is contention amongst groups but in a more secular society (one in which people choose to be secular) there is more group cohesion.

In conclusion: I'm sure that living in a place where religion is outlawed is just as bad if not worse than living in a place where you are forced to follow one religion BUT that does not prove the point that atheism leads to anything bad. What is shows is that we need an open market place of ideas and if atheism comes out on the top of the ideas in that open market it can lead to less societal issues.

Would someone puhleaze tell Elian Gonzalez to shut up?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


This is where I find those that espouse this group cohesion get it wrong.

I am a VERY religious person. I do not attempt to force my religious views on anyone. You could scan some of my comments in the the latest thread I have been arguing the freedom of choice and speech.

This is the aspect that I believe the study is missing. In a society that does not force ANY view you would find things to be favorable. Maybe it is not that the society is MORE atheist, but more freedom of thought, instead of a totalitarianistic type society, where your ideas are forced to comply with the collective. Be it a religious or secular.

Freedom of _____, whatever your beliefs are, is my sticht.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


There are Atheists who do believe in Spirits and Souls, they are called Spiritual Atheist, look it up.

The definition of an Atheist is someone who does not believe in God or Gods, it says nothing about souls and spirits.

(except for certain theist who may consider all souls to be Gods, which maybe considered blasphemy by some other theists)

Communism does not represent Atheism as a whole, like Islam does not represent Theism as a whole.

Make sure to include all the religions and faiths on this planet to represent the number of people killed by theists, from the past to the present, and include it's ratio to the global population at those times, to be fair.

By the way Communism is a failed idea and may not be around much longer, unlike all the other faiths and religions out there that has or will continue to kill that is of great concern in the future when they cannot get along with themselves and anyone not like them.

[edit on 31-5-2010 by ixiy]

My understanding of this study means that the OP title is misleading and a little sensationalist.

I believe that these studies are talking about the role religion has on society and, importantly, the government of that society.

It should say "Religious Societies=Higher Sociological Problems"

And I have a problem with the use of "Atheism" ... Is any country populated with a majority of people that are Atheists? I would argue that most people in the more peaceful societies have a an understanding of what a "god" is and probably have their own spiritual philosophy ... they just don't see the need to involve it in their day to day life. Or, if they do, they involve it in their own day to day life and no one else's.

I just don't think that "Atheism" is appropriate in this case ... unless I am missing something ... how about "Secular" ... I dunno ... I am open to suggestions ...

For instance - The first video says that Sweden is 85% Atheist. It is my understanding that Sweden is considered to be majority Lutheran. Although it has been declining steadily over the years, over 70% of Swedes still belong to the church. They just don't let it get in the way of running a country. So yes the government could be called "Atheist" but really it should be described as secular.

The real crux of this whole thread is that these study's show is that the more religious a society is, the more unhealthy it is.

The most violent and unhealthy societies on that list are the most influenced by religion and the most peaceful and healthy societies are the least influenced by religion.

And that is 100% correct.

There are always exceptions in life, like communism in this case, but the facts are the facts.

Edit:
reply to post by endisnighe

Yes! ... That's what I am getting at ... I agree 100%

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

In conclusion: I'm sure that living in a place where religion is outlawed is just as bad if not worse than living in a place where you are forced to follow one religion

And yes! ... I agree 100% with this as well


[edit on 31/5/10 by Horza]