Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

Considering many animals (who have never read the bible or any other God book of morals) have very highly evolved societies of a high moral nature (probably more sophisticated then humans) - - I hardly find the argument "we need god or religion" to have/understand ethics & morals ridiculous.

The two I find interesting are Elephants and Timber Wolves (a specific wolf - but I can't right now remember which one)

The idea that religion is the issue is just not something that makes sense....it is on the same scale as comparing races. After all x amount of White people and x amount of black people fit into comparable situations.....because there are so many religions (same as races) and so many obscure accusations (just as with races).


So why not ask the race question to? lets get genocidal!

Originally posted by Annee
Considering many animals (who have never read the bible or any other God book of morals) have very highly evolved societies of a high moral nature (probably more sophisticated then humans) - - I hardly find the argument "we need god or religion" to have/understand ethics & morals ridiculous.

The two I find interesting are Elephants and Timber Wolves (a specific wolf - but I can't right now remember which one)

So you don't mind if I beat up all the males around me so I can be the alpha male and get all the women?

Originally posted by Xtrozero

So you don't mind if I beat up all the males around me so I can be the alpha male and get all the women?

Oh - that is a different subject and somewhere you do not want to go with me on this thread. I tend to revere the Elephant society. However - I don't support male monogamy.

Next question . . . .

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Yet Communism, an atheist belief, has caused more death in the 19th and 20th century than all world wars, and other conflicts from around the world put together.


[edit on 30-5-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Yet before communism most of the death was attributed to some kind of god or religion either through holy wars or sacrifice. here is a site that lists the major conflicts based on religion there is one statement made in the article which i would like to share with you it is As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: "The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified."

Now I'm not defending communism but you really need to do is some research before you go making wild accusations like that. I mean we have been in a religious war for almost ten years now. Religious wars have been going on since the first religious person said my god is better than yours. even the religions that preach peace and love for mankind are responsible for some of the most bloodiest and brutal battles.


www.theskepticalreview.com...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I personally find when religion is mixed with moderation it is very good force in the world and much of religion is that way. When religion is mixed with extremism it can be a very bad force, but then as said before any form of extremism is bad.

So maybe the true direction to look at is what causes extremism in the world and whether the good outweighs the bad when we look at religion.

Religions can often be quite charitable. However, many secular organizations are equally or more charitable.

Moderation in religion is presumably a good goal as it works well in other areas of life. However, the religious moderate paves the streets for the religious extremist.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
many secular organizations are equally or more charitable.

Dear reader, you will see almost every atheist preoccupied with "my * is bigger than your *" in many variations.

I quoted this to point out yet another variation. In the end what does it matter who is "more charitable" as if charity were an ego-aggrandization. This is why many religious communities give charity anonymously - to avoid the ego-trips that stem from deepest insecurity.

As you read the atheists posts in the future, notice the recurring pattern.

Originally posted by lucid eyes

Dear reader, you will see almost every atheist preoccupied with "my * is bigger than your *" in many variations.

I'm aware that this seems to be your interpretation of anything atheist. However, this is not an ego competition and the above statement was a prelude to another point. Please remain topical as this thread is not about your personal feelings regarding atheism. Feel free to start another thread detailing the many ways that you feel atheism presents an existential threat to you and present your personal feelings towards atheists.

Thanks and have a great day!

[edit on 2-6-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Astyanax
Actually, Communism is a religion, and its vices are all religious vices.

Lol ok, so then is capitalism (money=god), hell might as well put all systems in the pot too.

Capitalism (and those other systems) are philosophies, not religions. There is a difference between the two, subtle but real.

Socialism is a philosophy. Do you know what communism really is? It's socialism for uneducated people. It's a catechism invented by socialists who understood that the philosophy of socialism was too difficult and abstruse to be grasped by 'the workers' - the people who needed to be mobilized to put it into practice. So they dumbed socialism down to a few easily grasped 'truths' - good guys, bad guys, a simplified mythohistory of the world past, present and future, a list of truths to be internalized and another of commandments to follow. It's called The Communist Manifesto. I expect you've read it.

When Communism passed from the theorists to the practitioners - Lenin, Stalin, later others - it developed into a true cult or religion. In most cases the leader was deified. This has been taken to extremes in North Korea, where it is believed that Kim Il Sung, the late dictator, still lives and infuses his spirit into the country and its people.

Your response to Bigbert's question is evasive and unfair: his question makes sense and is legitimate as the dialectical antithesis of the undisputed thesis 'millions, at least, have been killed explicitly in the name of religion.' This includes all the Jews Hitler killed, by the way; they were put to death at least nominally because of their religion, not because the Nazis wanted to promote atheism. But I digress.

As theism is the opposite of atheism, it is fair to ask: how many have been killed in the name of atheism? Isn't that just the question religious people aim to answer when they speak of the millions slaughtered by Stalin and Mao and Hitler?

Or else, you might ask: how many people have been killed by others, but not been killed in the name of religion? Interesting question, isn't it? In addition to the tally of those slaughtered by Communist regimes and other political murders down the ages, we can set aside murders for gain, crimes of passion and all the other freelance stuff. Manslaughter, capital punishment and euthanasia can be subtracted too.

That's a lot, isn't it? What is left? What is left, my friend, is war, the leading sunderer of putative souls from undeniable bodies. Now, consider this: until the twentieth century, every war, down to the smallest tribal conflict, was always prosecuted and defended 'with god on our side'. A great many still are. In some cases it's our god against theirs, in others it's 'god is on our side because we are righteous'. One way or the other, those killed in the war are killed in the name of God. This was frequently true even of the imperial experiment - the conquista espiritual as the Portuguese used to call it was one example, and the Statutes of Batavia forbade the practice of the Roman Catholic faith in all Dutch East Indian colonies.

Looked at in this way, the number of those who, throughout history, have been killed in the name of some tribal, ethnic, national or imperial faith bids fair to exceed by orders of magnitude those who have been killed for any reason at all.

That is how bad religion is. Those who cannot see it are, in my opinion, simply refusing to look.

Originally posted by bigbert81
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, well, I will still continue to take ACTUAL STATISTICAL data over an individual opinion.

Well said, sir.

By the way, there are surely more - many, many more - atheists in America than there are Scientologists (the immediately more numerous category of prison inmate on the list you quote) and Hindus (the next most numerous). I say your prison data bear out the claim that, per capita, atheists are less likely to be criminals than the religious.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Moderation in religion is presumably a good goal as it works well in other areas of life. However, the religious moderate paves the streets for the religious extremist.

I disagree, and I think those who are extremist would still be extreme with or without religion.

One thing to think about is extremist modify their religion to support their extremist views and actions, and these views and actions come from personal non-religious agendas. Religion is constantly used as the scapegoat for many situations where the actual motivators are very non-religious.


I guess my point is if people actually followed the fundamentals of their religion they would not be extremist.


[edit on 2-6-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Looked at in this way, the number of those who, throughout history, have been killed in the name of some tribal, ethnic, national or imperial faith bids fair to exceed by orders of magnitude those who have been killed for any reason at all.

That is how bad religion is. Those who cannot see it are, in my opinion, simply refusing to look.

Well that is my problem with your logic for you want to broad-brush everything that has led to negative consequences as religion base, but I say that man in general uses many forms of motivators with religion just being one of them. If you want to label nationalism as a religion too then have at, but then we might as well just put every motivator in to the religious bucket and change the definition to something more general.

As I debate you guys I keep losing the concept of just what you think religion is.

To say that Nazi Germany was motivated by religion that led to WWII is where I really start to lose interest in this discussion. Does politics have any part to this in any way or is politics just another form of religion. Was Japan driven by religion during WWII, was Russia driven by religion as 40 million died, was China religious in letting 100 million starve to death as they put all their recourses into their industrial age, does religion drive the desires of the warlords in Darfur as the starve, kill, rape their way towards greed and power, was Pol Pot driven by religion as he killed all religious and educated people, plus 2 million others in a few short years, is North Korea driven by religion, was Ghingus Khan driven by religion? Even the Christian Crusades was driven more by politics than religion.

I guess it seems that you want to categorized everyone into two groups those who do not believe in a god and those who do, and for those who do then all their actions are religious base, and I find that thought preposterous to say the least.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I disagree, and I think those who are extremist would still be extreme with or without religion.

I don't know if I agree with this entirely. I've witnessed too many of my friends who were relatively moderate in all aspects of life get into one religion or another, then once struck with the god bug went totally off the deep end. Luckily most of them came back down to earth after a year or two.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
To say that Nazi Germany was motivated by religion that led to WWII is where I really start to lose interest in this discussion.

I do not believe that Nazi Germany was motivated by religion which lead to WW2 either.

This brings up a good point though which needs addressing since it's come up many times.

WAS ADOLPH HITLER AN ATHEIST?

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

I could keep going with this but...

IT APPEARS NOT

I'll make ,my own assesment I've know 4 people who have killed themselves 3 were atheists other a jack christian,so my study says that is false,so who do you think I side for?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I keep having a hard time in categorizing "Atheists".

...i can see that... so, heres my suggestion...

...start with the definition of atheist... then, proceed with listing the variations - these can be your primary categories... as you discover previously uncategorized variations, either make them a primary category or a sub-category... expect a very long list...

...if you want an accurate as possible accounting, you have to actually meet atheists and have discussions before you can put their version of atheism on your list... that being said, even if you did that, your list will still just be your opinion, not fact or proof of anything other than you made a list of your perceptions...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Ok BS here my friend since most serial killers are that way because they are psychopaths and that comes from their brain physically operating very differently.

...thats just an opinion too - in some cases, its a highly educated one but its still just an opinion, not fact...

...it might be helpful for you to spend some time learning about how qualifiers (or the lack of) in sentence structure or speech patterns determine whether the statement is emphatic (fact or presented as fact) or an opinion... qualifiers are words such as "most", "perhaps", "might", "possibly", "maybe"...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
You guys

...i'm not a guy...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
just want to basically label everything bad as religion or some other factor that true Atheist would never be a part of, and so I do not see a very convincing argument.

...theres probably some ying-yang out there somewhere proclaiming they're a true atheist but, imo, there is no such thing...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
True atheism is a very small percentage of the population

...lmao, there is no such thing as "true atheism"...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
and so to say there are less atheist in prison than Christians I need to say, No s##t… But to say that is proof that atheist are better I need to wonder if you really belief that yourself.

...we're back to "qualifiers" and how the failure to recognize them can alter one's perception of someone else's post...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I’m still trying to categorize people who do not live a religious life in anyway but do not call themselves a true Atheist. Would not a person need to follow their religious beliefs to be truly categorized religious?

...#1 - one cannot successfully categorize a concept until they define the concept...

...#2 - after defining the concept, then proceed with listing the variations of perceptions of that concept...

...#3 - even if you met every person on the planet and took the time to understand their way of being before you put them in the category you think they belong in, its still just your perspective...

...hope that helps...

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

I don't know if I agree with this entirely. I've witnessed too many of my friends who were relatively moderate in all aspects of life get into one religion or another, then once struck with the god bug went totally off the deep end. Luckily most of them came back down to earth after a year or two.

What is going off the deep end? I just don't see it throughout my life. My worst religious experience in the US is someone knocking on my door wanting to pass me reading material, but then I have friends who like to argue their Atheist stance rather aggressively, so I just see people motivated by whatever ideals they have religious or non-religious.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

What is going off the deep end?

I've had a few friends turn into rabid christian apologists and one even went street preacher route. I had one find Jesus, decide that my rock music was serving satan, then stole all of my equipment in the name of the lord. I had some others turn to satanism and began some, err, odd behavior as you could imagine. And yes, here in the bible belt I constantly have religious solicitors banging on the door. They feel entitled to ignore the no soliciting sign I have posted on all my doors.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The ones that came up with those ideas were worshipers of Gaea. Not Atheists or even Pagans.

Those who worship Gaea think that they need to control every aspect of human existence to achieve their goals.

I will only say this once...a pagan does not worship the earth. We honor it, and thank it for the gifts it gives us. You may be shocked to hear this, but we believe that the earth can take care of itself.

And as far as proselytizing: We are not so vain as to believe that our religion is right for everyone. We all travel our own paths in life. Those paths converge and diverge but we all end up in the same place at the end.

Unless asked, you will never hear me speaking of my own religion again.

Originally posted by lucid eyes

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
And what would you call your incessant trolling attempts? A desperate cry for attention?

perhaps you could make a worthwhile contribution to the thread besides trolling and insults.

Im sorry for the misunderstanding, I didnt mean to offend you. I was not actually addressing you but the readership so that they may understand the psychological causes of the dozens of "atheists more intelligent then others" threads, the cry of the insecure inner child in a "big godless universe" and the rebellion of the atheist against the father figure.

In no way was it directed at you, so again my respectful well wishes

I get the impression you just hate atheists. Let them live in their "big godless universe", as long as they're happy there and not hurting anyone. Because they are. Your posts are a great example of religious intolerance. It seems like you just don't understand and can't handle the fact that there are atheists in the world, so you feel the desire to call them out and condemn them. Insecurity. You must be rather confused at how an atheist could possibly be happy with themselves.

Let me spell it out for you. First of all you must try to accept the fact that atheists don't think of themselves as "rebelling against the father figure". They don't feel like they're "supposed to be" religious, or that they "should be", and just aren't, or anything like that. God and religion has not been proven true, so maybe start by not automatically and blindly accepting it as fact. Accept the fact that not everyone does, and that's completely logical. It's not the other side that believes something that's not based in facts.

Read my post on page 13.. here, I'll quote the relevant part for you.

Originally posted by elocin
I refuse to accept the ideology that I need constant guidance from a "God", when I know I have it in me already to know right from wrong. And knowing I have it in me already to know right from wrong is not thinking I'm on the same level as "God" or being "all-knowing". I think that knowing right from wrong is something that we are innately born with; something "God" gave us. But society decided to distort our views of ourselves so that we don't believe ourselves to be conscious enough to make decisions for ourselves, because that way we're easier to control. And when you believe you constantly do things that are wrong, it's easy to believe you need guidance. Interesting coincidence that it's the bible and organized religion that makes people believe that they're constantly doing things wrong ("sinning"). So if you refuse to go by what the bible and religion tries to tell you, then you refuse to believe that you are "sinning". If religious people believe in the bible and what they are preached, then they believe that they are sinning, constantly and daily.


It must be Hell to think so lowly of yourself that you don't know right from wrong to the point where you need serious "guidance" daily, only to find that you do nothing but continue to "sin" anyway.

An atheist would believe that they're not sinning in the first place. As long as an atheist does what they believe in their heart is right, what's the point in them asking for "guidance" that will make them suddenly believe that they're doing wrong?

Get it yet? Atheists don't believe they sin, and so therefore don't believe they need to be forgiven for anything. Hence, their happiness. Don't you WISH you felt that way??