Separate Studies Conclude: Atheism = Peace, Religiosity = Higher Sociological Problems

reply to post by Xtrozero

Your question doesn't make sense because atheism is not a thought, belief or actions, it is the lack of.

I believe you might be confusing agnosticism vs atheism. Not that you don't know the difference, but being agnostic is the lack of belief, while atheism is the belief that there is no deity.

I have notice that atheist tend to rely on simple logic loops as their primary tool when they debate this issue, but things are not so simple.

You are generalizing, sir, as this might be YOUR experience, but it is certainly not mine.

The better question is, how does the lack of religion affect human behavior?

Yes, that is a better question, and one that is certainly debatable, as both sides can make strong arguments. Without religion, would there be less bloodshed? Don't statistics show that religious people give more to charity than their counterparts? Would donations be more equivalent if it were easier to give such as atheists making gatherings in institutions to hear of suffering in the world and had a plate passed around for donations? What if we throw in the factor of being judged to enter eternal glory or suffering...the fear or the hope? And what of differing religions/secular beliefs?

I myself am a humanist, and I feel that I am compassionate towards others, despite whether there is God or not. Does this make me better than an evangelist and his/her compassion because religion becomes a factor?

With so many factors to consider, I look back to the OP and what it was asking: Is atheism more PEACEFUL than theism? In my opinion, if we are referring to secular humanism, than I have to say YES, I do believe that religion is not as peaceful as this secular belief, but I cannot speak for all people/beliefs of course.






[edit on 6/1/2010 by bigbert81]

I do not consider myself a religious person by any stretch of the imagination. I do have my own personal spiritual beliefs and theories, and my own private practices of those beliefs within my own home, but that's about it. I regard myself as an agnostic skeptic more than anything else. Nevertheless, these studies have given rise to an interesting (to me at least) thought and question in my mind.

Could it be that "religiosity" or "zealotry" of any kind are associated, at least through correlation if not provable causality, with increased conflict and sociological issues? What I mean to say is, is it possible that even an atheist could be "zealous" or - virtually - "religious" in their application of atheism, giving rise to the same problems?

I ask this because it has been my personal experience that rigid adherence to one doctrine while dismissing or seeking to invalidate others which seem subjectively contrary to them, whether they be religious, scientific, psychological, philosophical, spiritual, theoretical, or political, seem to give rise to conflict and even violence in some instances. Perhaps this "zealotry" for lack of a better term is the problem, wherever it arises, not simply adherence to a religion.

Religious people can be peaceful, tolerant, and open-minded. Atheists can as well. Yet I have observed "zealotry" and even outright hate among both groups, as well as in every political group, philosophical school of thought, etc. that I have observed at one time or another. Perhaps that is the common denominator, not merely religion versus atheism.

Just a thought worth considering in my opinion.

...stats on the religions or lack thereof of usofa prison inmates convicted of violent crimes would seem to validate that christians are more apt to be violent than anyone else... atheists are usually on the bottom of the stack and some justify that via percentages (there are more christians in the usofa than atheists) - but - maybe theres more to that than just the numbers...

...research into the strict (and often psychotic) fundamentalist christian upbringing of most serial killers (world wide) is also very telling... perhaps that is more about violence begats violence (or insanity begats insanity) than the religion itself - but - its a hard point to prove considering all the violence committed by christians... when you add the historical violence of the parent religion (judaism), both christians and muslims have many thousands of years of justification (in their eyes) for committing violence...

...many doctors and scientists are now of the opinion that the predisposition for psychopathy is congenital - but - many people believe that all of our ancestors had to be violent to survive... i dont agree with the latter premise and the interpretations of the ancient civilization at caral seems to validate that...

Originally posted by AceWombat04 Perhaps [zealotry] is the common denominator, not merely religion versus atheism.

It's almost certainly an enormous part of a lot of problems. But which side of the aisle contains the most zealotry and fundamentalism? The religious I'd say.

Although I suppose there are zealous atheists I've never met any and really only seen a few online (and they were selling books). I've never met an atheist that was not a peaceful and tolerant individual.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


That I will agree with, on a purely statistical and probability-oriented basis. It saddens me that it appears to be the case. I think it is important to make clear that this is not a blanket statement applicable to all (possibly not even the majority) of any religion or religious affiliation, but rather an interpretation of statistical data suggesting a given probability for an outcome. My concern is not the avoidance of offending anyone, but simply to avoid, on the basis of my own ethics, making any blanket or stereotypical statements. (If at all possible lol.)

[edit on 6/1/2010 by AceWombat04]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
And what would you call your incessant trolling attempts? A desperate cry for attention?

perhaps you could make a worthwhile contribution to the thread besides trolling and insults.

Im sorry for the misunderstanding, I didnt mean to offend you. I was not actually addressing you but the readership so that they may understand the psychological causes of the dozens of "atheists more intelligent then others" threads, the cry of the insecure inner child in a "big godless universe" and the rebellion of the atheist against the father figure.

In no way was it directed at you, so again my respectful well wishes

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by AceWombat04 Perhaps [zealotry] is the common denominator, not merely religion versus atheism.

It's almost certainly an enormous part of a lot of problems. But which side of the aisle contains the most zealotry and fundamentalism? The religious I'd say.

Although I suppose there are zealous atheists I've never met any and really only seen a few online (and they were selling books). I've never met an atheist that was not a peaceful and tolerant individual.

Really, never met an atheist that wasn't a peaceful and tolerant individual??

Check the prison system out sometime.... lol

I guess what I was getting at is that while, yes, the emergence of zealotry does seem more common place among the zealously religious (perhaps due in large part because many religious institutions are dogmatic and absolutist by nature; that is to say that they are predicated often on the very notion that only their truth is applicable,) where this preponderance of dogma and zealotry is most pronounced can shift and change over the course of history. It has the potential to exist everywhere, and anywhere, not just among the religious. Currently - and historically, according to what I know at least, which is far from anything approaching "everything" naturally lol - religion appears to be where this factor or "force" emerges with the most frequency and publicity. Yet I would suggest that it is a fundamental element of our profoundly flawed human nature, capable of emerging and causing harm in many different forms, and in many different facets of our society.

I do not deny that the data suggests or implies that it is more common among the religious. However the other institutions/groups I have seen it rear its head have similar features: rigid dogma, intense emotional/psychological propaganda, clearly defined distinctions between social groups defined by the leaders of those institutions/groups, and adherence to belief structures contrary to objective evidence. So perhaps these factors, perhaps most common currently among the world's religions, are the issue, and not the adherence to a religious belief system itself.

Just one person's thoughts/opinions. I do not deny the data or its implications.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
which side of the aisle contains the most zealotry and fundamentalism? The religious I'd say.

At times this world may seem overwhelming and confusing and it may appear as if there are a lot of "religious zealots" out to get one, but rest assured that someday, when one gets outside and into the world, buy ones own busfare, opens a bank account, gets to meet people, one finds that 99% of religious folk are nice people minding their own business.

And the 1% bad apples? Well, you find them everywhere.

Those books may have tried to convince people that the 1% = the 99% but once they get out a little they`ll just experience and see for themselves and might even make some christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist friends!

[edit on 1-6-2010 by lucid eyes]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Check the prison system out sometime.... lol

I have expanded the figures to provide a % of the total respondents, and I have ranked them (they were presented to me alphabetically). These stats were obtained from their computer on 5 March 1997.

Dear Mr. Swift:

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category: Response Number % ---------------------------- -------- Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Muslim 5435 7.273% American Indian 2408 3.222% Nation 1734 2.320% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Moorish 1066 1.426% Buddhist 882 1.180% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Scientology 190 0.254% Atheist 156 0.209% Hindu 119 0.159% Santeria 117 0.157% Sikh 14 0.019% Bahai 9 0.012% Krishna 7 0.009% ---------------------------- -------- Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)

Unknown/No Answer 18381 ---------------------------- Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.

Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody) ---------------------------- Total In Prisons 96968 I hope that this information is helpful to you. Sincerely, Denise Golumbaski Research Analyst Federal Bureau of Prisons Now, let's just deal with the nasty Christian types, no? Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Judeo-Christian Total 62594 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses) Total Known Responses 74731

Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).

SRC: www.holysmoke.org...







[edit on 6/1/2010 by bigbert81]

reply to post by bigbert81
hey nice lists there buddy..

I WORK for the Department of Corrections, get into religious debates with men every day, I'd say 1 in 10 are religious. LOL

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, well, I will still continue to take ACTUAL STATISTICAL data over an individual opinion.

Trust me, more studies and recent stats are plenty easy to find.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Really, never met an atheist that wasn't a peaceful and tolerant individual??

Check the prison system out sometime.... lol

I'm sorry, I haven't met prison bound atheists so my experience is different than yours apparently. I imagine that regardless of belief few people in that situation are peaceful and tolerant

Originally posted by lucid eyes
so that they may understand the psychological causes of the dozens of "atheists more intelligent then others" threads

Ahh I see. This isn't one of those threads.

Perhaps you should go visit one and dispense your psychological knowledge there where it would be pertinent.

Have a great day

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Check the prison system out sometime.... lol

Wouldn't violent prisoners by classified under "extremism"?

There are individual extremists in ever facet of life.

I hardly support this direction as a valid argument.

Wow this thread looks like it got a little out of hand. But on a side note, I did find this.

users.erols.com...

Look at it however you want, has everything to deal with religion being "peaceful" (I chuckle at using religion and peace in the same sentence)

edit to add: shortnews.com... - and a big ol' L O L

[edit on 1-6-2010 by itsmethegoat]

reply to post by bigbert81


Hard question to answer I do say. When we talk about giving and helping most churches do this rather well within their local community and that is not factored in. They also create the biggest private international charity too, but then we have this whole Middle East thing…

I personally find when religion is mixed with moderation it is very good force in the world and much of religion is that way. When religion is mixed with extremism it can be a very bad force, but then as said before any form of extremism is bad.

So maybe the true direction to look at is what causes extremism in the world and whether the good outweighs the bad when we look at religion.


Also where do people stand who might say they believe in a god, but don't care and do what they want without religious influence? I’m sure this is actually a larger number of people than the number of true Atheist.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Xtrozero

Hard question to answer I do say

Indeed, as there most certainly can be no definitive answer upon such a generalized topic.

So maybe the true direction to look at is what causes extremism in the world and whether the good outweighs the bad when we look at religion.

A good question to ask, although I do not believe extremism the only culprit, it is definitely in the mix. Hmmm, just off the top...maybe a combination of extreme passion and indoctrination?

Also where do people stand who might say they believe in a god, but don't care and do what they want without religious influence? I’m sure this is actually a larger number of people than the number of true Atheist.

Yet another thing to ponder, however would the answer be any different from what we've already discussed in regards to atheism? Would there be any difference in how they act (morals and such). In general, I do not believe so, but I'm once again, just taking a guess.

BTW, an adult conversation has been rather nice, where it doesn't resort to talking down to others, insults, or extreme cynical arrogance. Thanks.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...stats on the religions or lack thereof of usofa prison inmates convicted of violent crimes would seem to validate that christians are more apt to be violent than anyone else... atheists are usually on the bottom of the stack and some justify that via percentages (there are more christians in the usofa than atheists) - but - maybe theres more to that than just the numbers...

I keep having a hard time in categorizing "Atheists". When a person is in jail and who has lived their who life doing bad things and then asked if they believe in god, and they say “maybe but I don’t give e a crap about who ever or whatever god may be, and so I do what I want, when I want, to whomever I want”

Would you call this person religious?

...research into the strict (and often psychotic) fundamentalist christian upbringing of most serial killers (world wide) is also very telling... perhaps that is more about violence begats violence (or insanity begats insanity) than the religion itself - but - its a hard point to prove considering all the violence committed by christians...

Ok BS here my friend since most serial killers are that way because they are psychopaths and that comes from their brain physically operating very differently.

when you add the historical violence of the parent religion (judaism), both christians and muslims have many thousands of years of justification (in their eyes) for committing violence...

You guys just want to basically label everything bad as religion or some other factor that true Atheist would never be a part of, and so I do not see a very convincing argument. True atheism is a very small percentage of the population and so to say there are less atheist in prison than Christians I need to say, No #… But to say that is proof that atheist are better I need to wonder if you really belief that yourself.

I’m still trying to categorize people who do not live a religious life in anyway but do not call themselves a true Atheist. Would not a person need to follow their religious beliefs to be truly categorized religious?

As example: A person who kills a man in the name of Allah, compared to a person who kills a man to get his wallet, or maybe was just bored.





[edit on 1-6-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by bigbert81
A good question to ask, although I do not believe extremism the only culprit, it is definitely in the mix. Hmmm, just off the top...maybe a combination of extreme passion and indoctrination?

There is a very large percentage of religious people who just live a good life and do what they can asking nothing in return, and don't force their views on anyone, so extremism to me is more of the issue.

Also the vast majority of religions come from a foundation of good ethics so indoctrination can be used for many influences and is not a bad thing. Even you got your views from something/somewhere….

BTW, an adult conversation has been rather nice, where it doesn't resort to talking down to others, insults, or extreme cynical arrogance. Thanks.

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Xtrozero]