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God and Satan.. Who is the good guy?

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posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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It's impossible for God to be evil.


Numerous examples (in his own book) would beg to differ.
Let's take Lot for example. God visits unspeakable horrors upon this man, killing his family, infesting him, etc. just to win a bet with Satan? Makes Ted Bundy look like a Saint!



God can't murder. He made life and takes it away. Nobody complains of murder from the old man dying.


The mothers of Egypt, whose firstborn babes were taken before the Exodus, would beg to differ on your definition of murder...



It's lack of understanding inside humans that rebel.


I've often wondered exactly how a "perfect" being makes such an "imperfect" creation... Anytime something seems to contradict itself in the Bible, it's always put on the shoulders of man's own inadequacy... Perhaps our absentee father figure should carry some of the blame, hmm?



life is a gift, not something we deserve. he can take it at his pleasing.


So your belief is that we're all here only on the whim of some divine being who demands our worship, but could otherwise snuff us out if he felt the mood take him? No thanks.




posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Considering God created us not Satan and placed the ability to love in our hearts means ofcourse Gods the good one.

Even the concept of (good) is from God since he placed that emotion in our heart.

which means common sense says, for Satan to be good yet the one who made him not good is ridiculous and impossible. Why would God make love in the first place.

goodness starts with God.


[edit on 30-5-2010 by JesusisTruth]



This is one argument I always seem to have people of faith end up not wanting to face, which can God be evil. Christians say we cannot be moral without God. This is ridiculous. (no insult intended)Some of the most immoral people in history have been Christian.

Both theists and atheists commit atrocities. Per definition, something that causes evil has to be evil itself. No good, moral person would purposefully cause evil acts to be committed. The God of the bible causes so many evil atrocities it is amazing to me that anyone could worship him. The most blatant example of this is hell.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Sorry man, but a person cannot create their own version of God and shoot down that version as illogical that they created to begin with.


Why not? You Christians do it all the time. Throughout history the Bible has been changed, rewritten, and edited to fit the wants and needs of a corrupt church. For instance, the word Witch was placed in the bible instead of the original word so that the church could persecute anybody they deemed a 'Witch' mainly women and children.

The Bible has come to be a means of escaping punishment rather than facing up to the crimes one has committed, Catholics in particular. Look at the number of priest that a known to have molested young boys but are protected by the church.

The Bible has become a corrupted book of lies and half-truths. It is now, and for centuries has been a work of the Devil.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:34 PM
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Gazrok

" makes ted bundy look like a saint "

What? Are you talking about Job? That was a test of faith. Something your human mind doesn't understand so you rebel ofcourse, and not just rebel but with terrible wit.





" the mothers of egypt "

Well those kids belong to God. All the mothers see is death as the ending. Maybee God was saving the kids from their country or themselves. Again what does the human do?

don't understand. rebel. God did that for a reason. When we die he will show you and your mind will change.


" I've often wondered exactly how a "perfect" being makes such an "imperfect" creation "


No that's humans who make things imperfect. God can't force us to be good. Grace is earned and rebellion is a choice.





" So your belief is that we're all here only on the whim of some divine being who demands our worship, but could otherwise snuff us out if he felt the mood take him? No thanks.
"


That's not what i meant and you know it. God doesn't demand our worship. He wants a communual relationship as he himself said if you would read the context of the bible.

again lack of understanding destroys souls. He wants us to chose to love him as friends.

and ofcourse I already know your reply. the usual hell reference.

Gods telling the truth. If you do not believe in him you shall die in your sins. Because he enters the soul and gives it grace. it's a statement of truth.


God can't murder. He made life, he made love. For God to put love in Gazrok and yet not have it himself is impossible and not logical.


peace.





[edit on 2-6-2010 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 2-6-2010 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:44 PM
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Both theists and atheists commit atrocities. Per definition, something that causes evil has to be evil itself. No good, moral person would purposefully cause evil acts to be committed. The God of the bible causes so many evil atrocities it is amazing to me that anyone could worship him. The most blatant example of this is hell. "



" some of the most immoral people in history have been christian "

No some of the biggest hypocrites have been immoral not christian. A pile of crap can call itself christian, doesn't make it christian.

Grace is put in souls by God. We can't be good without him. because he supplies love and grace to our souls.

If we think not we are running on pride which most people do blocking their ability to recognize grace.


I had two friends growing up. They both had dogs. One beat his dog for fun and punched it in the face for a luagh (not jokin). The other took good care of it.



The latter had grace. Since I see your understanding is little on grace, that's the simplest way i can put it.

Grace is love. God puts it there.

For God to not have what he put in us is ridiculous.




As for hell. How many times do I gotta say this? We have human jail on Earth. God has to seperate evil from good and make a place to hold evil or else God doesn't care.

I don't want a God who allows evil to ruin life for others after death. Hell is like a jail for evil. People on Earth get life in prison because some are that evil.

What hell is according to saints is when the soul dies in rebellion, God removes all grace, the soul becomes loveless, a shell of nothing and hatred. They chose it themselves.

they are fixed in a state of evil. There is no grace left in that soul. They wont be able to run on pride anymore and say

" I can be good without God "

Because on earth humans run on pride, but after God says depart from me love will cease in that soul. This is UNEXPLAINable to a soul who God said

" feed with milk "

I can't explain what grace is to you. You will understand after death.


But again on hell. Evil HAS to be seperated from good. I'm glad you aint God Eight because that would suck for us after death.


peace.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:52 PM
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The Bible has become a corrupted book of lies and half-truths. It is now, and for centuries has been a work of the Devil. "


Eight.


That's not what notyourtypical was talking about Crowley. He's talking about how they see God according to their judgements, lack of understanding.


BUT, that statement in your qoute has truth. It's because Christ predicted the fall away from the faith.

Satan created the revolt from the Catholic church

" Unless the revolt come first and man of sin be revealed "

So in 1611 what happened was the text were re translated and the creation of the satanic, yes satanic KJV was created.

In the original 1611 KJV was found demon pictures and if I'm not mistaken satanic references since the devil created the revolt from the Church.


It's not a true translation and neither are probably just about every translation out there except Dhouy rheims.

Why was this allowed? A punishement for souls revolting from the Church. But, I used to be protestant. God can lead people to the truth through learning.


peace.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 07:54 PM
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wait eight is that uncle fester or crowley?

I knew uncle fester had wisdom.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
No some of the biggest hypocrites have been immoral not christian. A pile of crap can call itself christian, doesn't make it christian.


So what do you call all those good Christian folk that participated in and allowed slavery to dwell here in America? The same goes for the Salem witch hunts and the persecution of today's Homosexuals by the church. Aren't they God's children also?




Grace is put in souls by God. We can't be good without him. because he supplies love and grace to our souls.


What about the people in remote parts of the world that have no concept of God but live their lives as he would have them to. I don't believe in God but I have good in my heart so how do you explain this?




I had two friends growing up. They both had dogs. One beat his dog for fun and punched it in the face for a luagh (not jokin). The other took good care of it.


The latter had grace. Since I see your understanding is little on grace, that's the simplest way i can put it.


Don't assume my objections equates to having a lack of understanding. This is a false fallacy many religious folk base their syllogism on which is why it fail all the time.



Grace is love. God puts it there.

For God to not have what he put in us is ridiculous.


This is just your opinion,judging by some of his commandments I beg the differ.You have to ask yourself, if God were all good the way you're trained to believe,why would he sanction wrath and vengeance that can be found throughout the Bible?

In this "good book", why would an all good, all loving deity strike down entire civilizations? Or tell his followers to do so? Why would he instruct the Israelites to go into Jericho and " kill every man and all the livestock. Keep nothing for yourselves, yea even kill the children and beat the pregnant women until they abort their fetus' in the streets." Does that sound like a good god to you? Sounds more like your representation of the devil to me.



posted on Jun, 2 2010 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Eight

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Sorry man, but a person cannot create their own version of God and shoot down that version as illogical that they created to begin with.


Why not? You Christians do it all the time. Throughout history the Bible has been changed, rewritten, and edited to fit the wants and needs of a corrupt church. For instance, the word Witch was placed in the bible instead of the original word so that the church could persecute anybody they deemed a 'Witch' mainly women and children.

The Bible has come to be a means of escaping punishment rather than facing up to the crimes one has committed, Catholics in particular. Look at the number of priest that a known to have molested young boys but are protected by the church.

The Bible has become a corrupted book of lies and half-truths. It is now, and for centuries has been a work of the Devil.
Who cares if it has been done by Christians in times past?? What on Earth does that have to do with THIS debate, in THIS thread?? Nothing, and furthermore, 2 wrongs make a right is ANOTHER fallacy of logic. Fail X2.



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You really do need to calm down and it has everything to do with this thread,did you not read and understand the implications of such a title?

Now if God didn't appear in the bible or if Christians didn't use it to justify or condemn everything under the sun that didn't attune to their view,then you would have a point.

But since this is the case you don't have a point because the bible is the tool Christians use to control and sway public opinion and perception.

If you were looking for a voice of one then maybe the title should have been named something else because really, what believer in God and the Bible is going to say otherwise.

This thread is contradictory based on the title and your objection to my difference of opinion and with that said I'll leave yo to your fireside chat.

I forgot one little thing. You reacted like most religious zealots react when they can't defeat logic, and that is get mad.



[edit on 3-6-2010 by Eight]



posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by Eight
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You really do need to calm down and it has everything to do with this thread,did you not read and understand the implications of such a title?

Now if God didn't appear in the bible or if Christians didn't use it to justify or condemn everything under the sun that didn't attune to their view,then you would have a point.

But since this is the case you don't have a point because the bible is the tool Christians use to control and sway public opinion and perception.

If you were looking for a voice of one then maybe the title should have been named something else because really, what believer in God and the Bible is going to say otherwise.

This thread is contradictory based on the title and your objection to my difference of opinion and with that said I'll leave yo to your fireside chat.

I forgot one little thing. You reacted like most religious zealots react when they can't defeat logic, and that is get mad.


What logic? You quoted my attempt to stop straw man arguments from being used in this thread. How in God's green Earth, pun intended, is that my failed attempt at defeating logic? Or are you referring to me pointing out that using 2 wrongs to make a right is ALSO a fallacy of logic??

I'm at a loss for words on that charge. You haven't presented a sound counter-point yet, until you do so and stop using fallacies then there is no way I could have 'failed' at defeating logic. Straw man arguments are worthless, they are not valid arguments.




[edit on 3-6-2010 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 03:08 PM
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I forgot one little thing. You reacted like most religious zealots react when they can't defeat logic, and that is get mad.

(eight)

I didn't see one ounce of anger in notyourtypicals response. Getting mad is a human reaction, it's not off limits to christians. I see atheist and satanist acting hateful for fun let alone because of an attack.

everything is typical in the agenda driven mindsets.


Now for these.


"
So what do you call all those good Christian folk that participated in and allowed slavery to dwell here in America? The same goes for the Salem witch hunts and the persecution of today's Homosexuals by the church. Aren't they God's children also? "

(eight)


Well if they allowed that then they aren't good are they? I wouldn't slave. So either me and those slave owners are reading different scriputres or they are hypocrites. Homosexuals are children of God, but their sins are evil.

Hell, I myself do evil sometimes. If I commit sin, I'll call myself doing evil.

But hunting them down killing them is ridiculous and those people will pay by God. God specifically said pray for those people only.





" What about the people in remote parts of the world that have no concept of God but live their lives as he would have them to. I don't believe in God but I have good in my heart so how do you explain this? "

(eight)

This is a tricky one. Grace is earned by some things only God knows, dilligence, good acts. And BTW love is a choice. So my friend might of had grace in other areas, but he chose to show no compassion to his dog.

That feeling that enters the human soul, like the grinch this tingly feeling. Some people hate that crap and don't want love.

But again. the point was I was talking about grace in general. Some have it some don't. It's put there by God for reasons I don't know.

And for souls in remote parts of the world. I have heard of a story of a woman in I think Africa who never grew up with any concept of God, BUT, she knew that a God existed in her heart.

So we don't know that everyone who doesn't know about christ is Godless in their minds. And btw even saints I think say grace isn't off limits to atheist especially baptised ones. It's put their by our daily routines, he distributes through their dilligence and so on, but it won't grow into true sainthood because God is not fully living in those souls. They have signal graces. Not sanctifying grace which caused saints to go into excstacy, but this is unexplainable. It's not the signal graces like kissing the kids goodnight, helping a nieghbor out doing yard work. I'm talking about the grace specifically from communion without which the soul cannot enter into perfection and sainthood or ecstacy where saints seen God. There are two types of grace. Signal graces which exist in non christians and christians. And sanctifying which is directly from the new sacrafice which creates saints and caused them to have excstacies, see God, and have God living in them fully.




" Don't assume my objections equates to having a lack of understanding. This is a false fallacy many religious folk base their syllogism on which is why it fail all the time "

(eight)

Well considering what grace is, It's unex-plainable, so I apologize and will say that after death God will show you how understanding works.




" This is just your opinion,judging by some of his commandments I beg the differ.You have to ask yourself, if God were all good the way you're trained to believe,why would he sanction wrath and vengeance that can be found throughout the Bible?

In this "good book", why would an all good, all loving deity strike down entire civilizations? Or tell his followers to do so? Why would he instruct the Israelites to go into Jericho and " kill every man and all the livestock. Keep nothing for yourselves, yea even kill the children and beat the pregnant women until they abort their fetus' in the streets." Does that sound like a good god to you? Sounds more like your representation of the devil to me. "

(eight)

And why would this all loving God teach this in the same book?

" honour thy father and mother "
" LOVE your enemies "
" Lend your coat to people "
" Love is the fullfillment of the gospel "


Obviously God isn't stupid enough to contradict himself, so the only conlusion is that the town like that of Jericho tempted the Isrealites. In some cases they sent their woman to get them to sin to lead them from God and you eight don't know what was in the tribes hearts who ploted against the isrealites over a couple sentences in a book.

All i see in the bible is love except for a few instances of war in the OT.

And they didn't beat the mothers stomachs. I believe they killed the mother instantly and the babies goes with her.

Yes it sounds gross, but God is a father to those woman and children, and he takes them after death where their true home is. if that's where they went. To limbo.

He's a father. He made life and he takes it away. If not by old age by other factors.

if God is God and the creator of this universe, then it is impossible for him to be a murderer because he made life to begin with.

If God came to me and said. Son because of your lack of dilligence in this life and hidden ways, I'm stricking you down tommorrow.

I would say so be it.

Life is a gift, not a right.

and trust me, he loves each and every soul beyond measure since he made the concept of love in the first place.


But I respect the fact that you made those points without attacking.

peace.










[edit on 8-6-2010 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 8-6-2010 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by JesusisTruth
 


Basically all you just said is that god "owns" us.
It's impossible for him to be a murderer because he created us?
What if we managed to create an authentic intelligent machine and then brutally destroy it? We being the god/creator of the machine would have the right to destroy our created life form?

Sounds to me like you are cherry picking the parts you like out of the bible and ignoring any opposition.

Some more notes just off head:
-It is clear to me is that god and satan do not interfere with life in these modern days.
-If god exists, it is for man to reach out to god and not god to reach out to man (hence he doesn't interfere)
-Heaven must be an infinitely huge place because trillions of people and life forms have died over the years and that's only on this planet.
-I wonder how many religious texts the Catholics have locked away in their vaults?
-Too many religions to study, picking one is a gamble. Pick the wrong one, be condemned.
-The bible has many contradictions.
-If you believe one religion and claim it is true, have you looked at the hundreds of others?

We are all thankful for life, but what good is religion to us when we have greater purposes at hand? The earth most certainly has all the resources we need to live and leave this planet.. Why spend time filling heads with religious propaganda that can not be confirmed when we should all be working on discovering the true workings of the existence........... To further ourselves would definitely please god that we are not a race that sits around bowing to an invisible unknowable but a race that takes on the life at hand and works to become greater beings instead of living in a bubble
excuse me........



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by nightrun
 
I take person exception to your claim that the Bible has many contradictions in it. Your claim is true, yet also completely false. how is this so you ask?

The modern bible translations are riddled with errors, omissions, and contradictions, you're very much correct there. However, in the ONLY authorized version in English, the 1611 King James Version there are zero contradictions, errors, or omissions.

My advice is, stop reading modern PERversions.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by Intuitiveaptitude2009

Originally posted by nightrun
extraterrestrial / alien species)

Gods actions on earth ? What were those exactly ? What had he done to adam and eve that it was right for satan to tempt them ? Think about that. By the way who's to say adam and eve were dumb ? You ? Maybe if they had rejected satan. They would have had a higher knowledge.


Now why would a God allow a supernatural entity access to His brand new human prototypes.

Seems like a rather silly move on His part.

Can you enlighten us?

Regards
DL



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Intuitiveaptitude2009

Originally posted by nightrun
extraterrestrial / alien species)

Gods actions on earth ? What were those exactly ? What had he done to adam and eve that it was right for satan to tempt them ? Think about that. By the way who's to say adam and eve were dumb ? You ? Maybe if they had rejected satan. They would have had a higher knowledge.


Now why would a God allow a supernatural entity access to His brand new human prototypes.

Seems like a rather silly move on His part.

Can you enlighten us?

Regards
DL
It was part of His plan. God doesn't make mistakes, everything done is according to His plans.

He's God.



posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 10:39 PM
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Nightrun/ Well the machine doesn't have two lives does it?

When God takes a soul, the life continues. But he can't murder because he made it in the first place and can decide when to take it.

The machine doesn't have life. Our lives are not a right it's a gift.


Notyourtypical the 1611 KJV did have satanic images in it.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth

Nightrun/ Well the machine doesn't have two lives does it?

When God takes a soul, the life continues. But he can't murder because he made it in the first place and can decide when to take it.

The machine doesn't have life. Our lives are not a right it's a gift.


Notyourtypical the 1611 KJV did have satanic images in it.



LOL wuuuut? I know the NKJV has occultist symbols on the cover, but NEVER heard what you claim. I have also seen the blatant pro-Satan slant in the NIV verses though.

U need to elaborate beyond arbitrary statements on that one.



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