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Humans. Not so special after all ! Intelligence in animals and evolution ?

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posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:09 PM
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Hi ATS.

After a couple of recent threads I got the feeling there are still a lot of people with misconceptions or even prejudice towards animal intelligence.
I’ve managed to find a lot of info on this subject and it isn’t even covering every aspect.
I decided to present an abundance of different signs of intelligence. So there is something that could grab the interest of everyone.

(Like this one by Wayne60. Are whales and dolphins smart enough to get special rights?)

I even dare to say : If anyone can not find a single article, video or theory which they think is fun or interesting. I would ( if I were you ) start thinking about the possibility of being an alien or even a robot of some kind.


I will mainly focus on animal intelligence because animal behavior is the best way to observe and proof animals are (far to often ) given less credit then they deserve.

Why Animal intelligence ? Because evolution can be explained through its effect on intelligence in animals.

Evolution of intelligence ? Yup


Humanity has felt superior to animals for as long as I can remember. The idea that we are special, more intelligent confronted me as if I got hit by a hammer.


The Arrogance !
Lets end it ! Right here and now !

I want to show you all that we are not as special as some people think we are. And offer the means to get a better understanding. I hope you will enjoy this thread.

(Please don’t hesitate to point out any error. I’m only human. ( pun intended ) No expert either, just love to learn new things.
)

I think human intelligence is a result of evolution ( and maybe a little alien genetic manipulation :@@
and animals are the key to understand where we got it from.

So, lets begin.

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Definition of intelligence :



1. The ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason. (the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience) or
( The ability to understand, a greater or lesser capacity to know or learn.)

2. The ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria.

3.A group of all the functions whose objective is knowledge (sensation, association, memory, imagination, understanding, reason, conscience.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Animal intelligence





One of the most common misconceptions about brain evolution is that it represents a linear process culminating in the amazing cognitive powers of humans, with the brains of other modern species representing previous stages. Such ideas have even influenced the thinking of neuroscientists and psychologists who compare the brains of different species used in biomedical research. Over the past 30 years, however, research in comparative neuroanatomy clearly has shown that complex brains—and sophisticated cognition—have evolved from simpler brains multiple times independently in separate lineages, or evolutionarily related groups: in mollusks such as octopuses, squid and cuttlefish; in bony fishes such as goldfish and, separately again, in cartilaginous fishes such as sharks and manta rays; and in reptiles and birds. Nonmammals have demonstrated advanced abilities such as learning by copying the behavior of others, finding their way in complicated spatial environments, manufacturing and using tools, and even conducting mental time travel (remembering specific past episodes or anticipating unique future events). Collectively, these findings are helping scientists to understand how intelligence can arise—and to appreciate the many forms it can take.


Source : One world many minds : Intelligence in the animal kingdom.

I’ve noticed there people who just think and/or believe, animals are just plane dumb, a sort of robot which is programmed to do what they do. In a way they are right. We call this programming, instinct.
However, the truth is that it’s just a part of the package. As you will learn in this thread.

What is thinking ? An example regarding the use of tools:

( Instinct. Not thinking )

A Sea otter using a stone for a hammer is instinct every single sea otter knows and does it. Even when they have never learned it before.

(Thinking)

Using a tool in different ways to adjust to the situation at hand. When a stick does not work replacing the stick with another or alter it for a better use.

A sheepdog at work, though, is a different story. One of the dog's jobs is to single out one sheep from a flock. The dog knows how to do that because it was trained.
The dog will keep changing its strategy until the sheep is out smarted. ( Gets you thinking… How smart are sheep ? )

Source :Do animals think? Sometimes they seem to, Is there a way to tell for sure?


Categorisation – the ability to discriminate between different categories of stimuli.



1. Reasoning and Problem Solving – the ability to solve a range of problems, using
abstract reasoning and supplying spontaneous solutions to problems without training

2. Memory – the use of spatial memory for food catching and the possibility of
short- term memory similar to that in humans.

3. Consciousness – a hotly debated area, regarding whether animals have a concept of
self and can display self-awareness.

4. Attention - the ability to distribute attention between different aspects of a stimulus.

5. Language – another controversial area, this involves the attempt to teach language or
language-like behaviour to certain species.

6. Emotion – perhaps the most controversial of all, this involves research into whether
animals have emotions or “feelings” which can be qualified in the same way as human
feelings.

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The most intelligent animals on Earth :



1.Great apes (including Humans) and Human

2. New World monkeys

3. Dolphin & Whales and Whale

4.Dogs

5.Octopi

6. Birds, specifically Ravens and Crows. and Raven and [/Crow.

7.Horses.

I'll focus on some of them further on.
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Surprised yet ?



The EQ ranking of animals.



I’ve found a calculation for measuring brain / body size.


Humans come out on top of the EQ ranking, followed by dolphins, chimps and gorillas. Here is our list according to EQ:

Human 7.6Dolphin 5.3 Chimpanzee 2.4Monkey 2.1
Gorilla 1.6 Elephant 1.3 Dog 1.2 Cat 1.0
Horse 0.9 Mouse 0.5 Rat 0.4 Opossum 0.2

We can use relative EQ to correct for the effect of body size by normalizing against the human EQ. The complexity equation then becomes:
C = log(N*EQa/EQh) * (1 + 2logZ), where EQa is the animal EQ and EQh is the human EQ, taken to be 7.6.

Normalized complexity compared to the consensus list.

Human 70 Human
Dolphin 67 Chimpanzee
Chimp 65 Dolphin
Elephant 64 Gorilla
Gorilla 63 Elephant
Monkey/Horse 57 (tied) Horse
Cat 53 Dog
Dog 52 Cat
Opossum/rat 41 (tied) Rat
Mouse 38 Opossum
Mouse

Source : Link.

To be continued below





[edit on 5/29/2010 by Sinter Klaas]




posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


S & F



Nice thread

and I agree with you


Humans are not special at all, imo

In fact, it would be great for the planet (and animals) if humans, collectively, were placed in padded cells for the duration



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:17 PM
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S&F for you, nice thread!!



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:18 PM
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Let me put my third cent in as well. I agree with OP!



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:19 PM
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Continuation of the thread above !





Animal cognition

Recent studies show that even singular cell creatures like the Amoeba posses a form of intelligence.
Primitive intelligence and evolution.

Temple Grandin says animals think like autistic humans. She should know, she is autistic herself.
A compelling article that explains the likeness of an autistic and an animal. ( In this case cows )
Source :Whacase cows )

An article about prairie dogs that show evidence they use actual language to describe a ( possible ) predator.
[url=http://discovermagazine.com/1992/jun/uglyhumanattwooc72]Ugly Human at Two O'Clock


These and a lot more articles on animal intelligence are part of 1/100 list which can be found here.
Source : Link.


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I will now focus on the different animals or animal groups on top of the intelligence list.


Birds




Birds (and humans), live a long time in complex societies. And like primates, these birds must keep track of the dynamics of changing relationships and environments.
"They need to be able to distinguish colors to know when a fruit is ripe or unripe," Pepperberg noted. "They need to categorize things—what's edible, what isn't—and to know the shapes of predators. And it helps to have a concept of numbers if you need to keep track of your flock, and to know who's single and who's paired up. For a long-lived bird, you can't do all of this with instinct; cognition must be involved."
Being able mentally to divide the world into simple abstract categories would seem a valuable skill for many organisms. Is that ability, then, part of the evolutionary drive that led to human intelligence?


My thought was that this actually makes a lot of sense



Alex the talking parrot.

Certain skills are considered key signs of higher mental abilities: good memory, a grasp of grammar and symbols, self-awareness, understanding others' motives, imitating others, and being creative. Bit by bit, in ingenious experiments, researchers have documented these talents in other species, gradually chipping away at what we thought made human beings distinctive while offering a glimpse of where our own abilities came from. Scrub jays know that other jays are thieves and that stashed food can spoil; sheep can recognize faces; chimpanzees use a variety of tools to probe termite mounds and even use weapons to hunt small mammals; dolphins can imitate human postures; the archerfish, which stuns insects with a sudden blast of water, can learn how to aim its squirt simply by watching an experienced fish perform the task. And Alex the parrot turned out to be a surprisingly good talker.
Many of Alex's cognitive skills, such as his ability to understand the concepts of same and different, are generally ascribed only to higher mammals, particularly primates. But parrots, like great apes


Alex was a Grey Parrot that was trained by a scientist. Alex showed remarkable and complex ways of intelligence. Here is a video that was made to show Alex his skills.

Source : Animal minds.



Who You Callin' "Bird Brain"?


“I thought, ‘This is odd,’” she says. “I assumed birds would cache for a long time—days or months. But this was for minutes.” She theorized that the birds were moving their caches to avoid pilfering. When food was plentiful, they grabbed as much as possible and hid it, then hid it again when they could do so without being observed by potential thieves. That behavior implied that the scrub-jays might be thinking about other birds’ potential actions, a type of flexible thinking that was supposedly beyond the capabilities of a scrub-jay’s little brain.


Source : The amazing smarts of crows, jays, and other corvids are forcing scientists to rethink when and why intelligence evolved.

The birds learned to identify an aggressive researcher and ignore the others—and eventually they dive-bombed the malefactor.
This happens a lot. I think it’s pretty funny. Better watch your backs…

Source : Mockingbirds Know Who You Are... And They Hold a Grudge


Look for video in post below.
Pigeon intelligence


Cognitive ornithology: the evolution of avian intelligence.
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Octopi.




Cephalopods belong to the same lineage that produced snails, clams, and other mollusks. A typical mollusk might have 20,000 neurons arranged in a diffuse net. The octopus has half a billion neurons.* The neurons in its head are massed into complex lobes, much the way our own brains are. In comparison with their body weight, octopuses have the biggest brains of all invertebrates. They're even bigger than the brains of fish and amphibians, putting them on par with those of birds and mammals.


Octopus


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Dogs




Exactly How Smart Is Man's Best Friend? A new pooch IQ test shows that canines may be brainier than we think.


Rico. A border collie with a vocabulary.
Researchers at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig heard about Rico and arranged a meeting with him and his owners. That led to a scientific report revealing Rico's uncanny language ability: He could learn and remember words as quickly as a toddler. Other scientists had shown that two-year-old children—who acquire around ten new words a day—have an innate set of principles that guides this task. The ability is seen as one of the key building blocks in language acquisition. The Max Planck scientists suspect that the same principles guide Rico's word learning, and that the technique he uses for learning words is identical to that of humans.

Source : Link
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Primates




"People were surprised to discover that chimpanzees make tools," said Alex Kacelnik, a behavioral ecologist at Oxford University, referring to the straws and sticks chimpanzees shape to pull termites from their nests. "But people also thought, 'Well, they share our ancestry—of course they're smart.' Now we're finding these kinds of exceptional behaviors in some species of birds. But we don't have a recently shared ancestry with birds. Their evolutionary history is very different; our last common ancestor with all birds was a reptile that lived over 300 million years ago.

Source : Link.


The Battle for #2 in Primate IQ Who is our smartest relative?
The Hierarchy of Intelligence
#1. Human
#2. Orangutan
#3. Chimpanzee
#4. Spider monkey
#5. Gorilla
#6. Surili
#7. Macaque
#8. Mandrill
#9. Guenon
#10. Mangabey
#11. Capuchin


Source :Primate IQ hierarchy.


Evolution of human intelligence.



Without Darwin's evolutionary perspective, the greater cognitive skills of people did not make sense biologically.

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To be continued below.







[edit on 5/29/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:22 PM
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Continuation from thread above.


Video of the raven test.


I was planning to make another thread on the evolution and intelligence of dolphins etc.
I figured it would fit right in this one.

This is also the reason Killer whales are very well covered.



Cetacean



The order of Cetacean include marine mammals known as Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises.

The order of Cetacean include marine mammals known as Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises.


Porpoises are small cetaceans and are this name has been used to refer to any small Dolphin, especially by sailors and fishermen. ( I’m not going to talk about them but I felt it was
nesscesarry to give a little info. )

Cetaceans are the mammals best adapted to aquatic life. their body is fusiform ( spindle-shaped ). The forelimbs are modified into flippers their hind limbs are Vestigial and do not attach to the backbone and are hidden within the body. Some species are noted for their high intelligence.


The above was to give those interested an easy way to learn more about the origins of the family of Dolphindae / Oceanic Dolphin
where Dolphins and Killer whales are a member of.

Evolution of Cetaceans .



The Killer whale. ( Orcinus Orca) is the largest member of the oceanic dolphin family. (Dolphindae). There are currently several species of Killer whale around where I’ve created a thread about a little while ago.
Source :Link.

Social structure

Killer whales are known for their richly complex societies. Only elephants and higher primates, such as humans, live in similar complex social structures.



There are numerous examples of killer whales imitating behaviours of other killer whales, and examples in which killer whales seem to deliberately teach skills to their kin. This is most strikingly seen in the areas where killer whales deliberately beach themselves to catch seals. Off Península Valdés, adults sometimes pull seals off the shoreline and then release them again near juvenile whales, allowing the younger whales to practice the difficult capture technique on the now-weakened prey. Off the Crozet Islands, mothers have been seen pushing their calves onto the beach, waiting to pull the youngster back if needed.

From people who have interacted closely with killer whales, there are numerous anecdotes demonstrating killer whales' curiosity, playfulness, and ability to solve problems. For example, killer whales in Alaska have not only learned how to steal fish from longlines, but have overcome a variety of techniques designed to dissuade them from the practice, such as the use of unbaited lines as decoys. Once, fishermen tried working together by placing their boats several miles apart and taking turns to retrieve small amounts of their catch, in the hope that killer whales would dash between boats not have enough time to steal any fish as it was being retrieved. A researcher described what happened next:

"It worked really well for a while. Then the whales split into two groups. It didn't even take them an hour to figure it out. They were so thrilled when they figured out what was going on, that we were playing games. They were breaching by the boats."

—Craig Matkin




In other anecdotes, researchers describe incidents in which wild killer whales playfully tease humans by repeatedly moving objects that the humans are trying to reach, or suddenly start to toss around a chunk of ice after a human throws a snowball.

The killer whale's use of dialects and the passing of other learned behaviours from generation to generation have been described as forms of culture. The paper Culture in Whales and Dolphins goes as far as to say, "The complex and stable vocal and behavioural cultures of sympatric groups of killer whales (Orcinus orca) appear to have no parallel outside humans and represent an independent evolution of cultural faculties

Source :Link.

Inside the mind of a killer whale.


Experts on marine mammals say that dolphins - including "killer whales," which are more properly called orcas - rank among the most intelligent species on the planet. So what was that orca thinking when he dragged his human trainer into the water and killed her?

Source :Link.

Scientist Has 'Snowball Fight' With a Killer Whale

Whale uses fish as bait to catch seagulls then shares strategy with fellow orcas


Cetacean intelligence.





Conclusion:
Evidence from various domains of research demonstrates that cetacean brains underwent elaboration and reorganization during their evolution with resulting expansion of the neocortex. Cortical evolution, however, proceeded along very different lines than in primates and other large mammals. Despite this divergence, many cetaceans evince some of the most sophisticated cognitive abilities among all mammals and exhibit striking cognitive convergences with primates, including humans. In many ways, it is because of the evolution of similar levels of cognitive complexity via an alternative neuroanatomical path that comparative studies of cetacean brains and primate brains are so interesting. They are examples of convergent evolution of function largely in response, it appears, to similar societal demands.
Returning to Manger, his controversial claim is reminiscent of the conclusion reached about bees by physicists and mathematicians in the 1930s—that the anatomical structure of bees and the known principles of flight indicate that bee flight is impossible [90]. Rightfully oblivious to Manger's contentions, cetaceans continue to provide an enormous body of empirical evidence for complex behavior, learning, sociality, and culture.

Source :Link.


Culture in Whales and Dolphins. ( Abstract )

Orca shares the waves with local surfer


Brains, Behaviour and Intelligence in Cetaceans (Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises) (Scientific study.)

Killer Whales Intelligent Hunters with Complex Social Lives


How smart are killer whales? Orcas have 2nd-biggest brains of all marine mammals
Killer whales, or orcas, have the second-biggest brains among all ocean mammals, weighing as much as 15 pounds. It's not clear whether they are as well-endowed with memory cells as humans, but scientists have found they are amazingly well-wired for sensing and analyzing their watery, three-dimensional environment.

Source :Link.

ORCA INTELLIGENCE How smart are killer whales – and can they decide to kill a person?






[edit on 5/29/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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Continuation from the thread above.



I will leave you all with some extra links you have got to check.


The staff had used a forklift and stretcher to hoist the 420-pound infant out of the main tank for emergency medical care. In a remarkable act of trust, the baby's parents, Orky and Corky, patiently watched the proceedings from the other side of the tank. The trouble began when the keepers tried to return the baby to the tank. The forklift operator, lacking a clear line of sight, halted the stretcher a few feet above the water, just beyond the grasp of the keepers who were waiting below. As the keepers struggled to reach and release the orca, it began throwing up—which, as trainer Gail Laule recalls, made for a desperate situation.

Orky, the father, then did something he'd never been trained to do. He swam beneath his baby, let a keeper stand on his head, and, using the awesome power of his flukes, held himself steady so the keeper could reach the latch on the stretcher and let the baby slip into the water. Not only did he seem to realize that the humans were trying to help; he appeared to understand that he could help them help.

Source :Inside the minds of animals.



I like the story about the elderly widow whose beloved little dog died after fifteen faithful years. Distraught, she went to her pastor.
"Parson," she said, tears streaming down her cheeks, "the vicar said animals have no souls. My darling little dog Fluffy has died. Does that mean I won’t see her again in heaven?"
"Madam," said the old priest, "God, in his great love and wisdom has created heaven to be a place of perfect happiness. I am sure that if you need your little dog to complete your happiness, you will find her there."


This site is about animals in the bible. I was actually surprised after reading it and I urge anyone to read it. It does not happen a lot I can relate with a religious perspective anymore. However, this was an interesting read.
Do animals have souls ?

This site offers a few amazing stories. A good read for those in to the vaguely world of the paranormal Animal intelligence and telepathy.

A site that offers specific definitions and philosophies by index : ( Molwickpedia )
Global cognitive theory.


The end...
... Really.

After reading this thread and watching the videos. I'm certain you will have an altered state of mind on animal intelligence and its evolution. ( Unless you knew already.)


I hope you will all enjoy this thread just like I did making it.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on animal intelligence and evolution. I yhink I've posted enough info to have an opinion about.

Kind Regards.

~ SK



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:42 PM
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Humans and animals have biological similarities, but the similarities end once we begin to examine the dimensions of the cognitive engine.

The only argument against humans being special that I can identify with is that animals may not necessarily see the need to go as far as we have with technology; even though they might have the capacity to mimic and understand a great deal.

------

With that in mind, I don't care as much for intelligence as I do for kind nature. There are animals in the world that are more courageous and morally sensitive than we are. To those animals, I tip my hat and bow.

But of course, we also have a whole world of really capable beings; entities that for whatever reason, take it upon themselves to spread ill-notion and tomfoolery. Selfishness and acting solely on primal instincts. To those, I scoff.

------

The same goes for humans. We have some thoughtful, earnest individuals. And then we have people that only do for themselves and couldn't care less about the livelihood of others.





This is why I believe there are Humans, and then there are animals dressed in human flesh.

But that example compares one-dimensional people to one-dimensional creatures.

If we are to believe that animals ALSO have their share of considerate thinkers ... then I suppose I would have to change my analogy to something more respectful of that.

~~~~

My girlfriend knows I would love to be best-friends with a fully grown male grizzly bear. Like ... amazingly close and awesome friends that always hang out and go wandering about together.


Unfortunately, I think a misunderstanding would lead to my inevitable dismemberment and death.



But it's nice to dream.


[edit on 29-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign
 



This is why I believe there are Humans, and then there are animals dressed in human flesh.


I think I totally agree with you.
However I wouldn't deny the idea there are animals that have( maybe )
The same sentience as humans do.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 07:19 PM
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Hummm... I would never presume to argue that some animals are smart. Or, that some animals are intelligent. Or, that some humans are just plain stupid. What I would argue with is the statement that humans are nothing special.

No, I'm not saying that because I believe in some divine creator who made humans in "his" image. I make the argument that humans *are* special because we are the only earthly creatures that can contemplate ourselves. We are the only earthly creatures that can contemplate the invisible. We are the only earthly creatures that can contemplate the universe... and our place within it.

We are the only earthly creatures that practices non-equal trade; not even another ape species will trade an apple in hand for a banana - because they are both food - even if it happens to like bananas more than apples, but likes them both: there is no measure of "liking more" - whereas a human understands that an apple is *different* from a banana. Matt Ridley's Rational Optimist expounds on this with far greater eloquence than I.

Although there are many animals that are intelligent, not one other species has built a city, created a piece of genuine art [slapping paint on a canvas aside], written a book, changed habitat just for the sheer heck of it, climbed Mt. Everest "just because it was there," etc.

Of course human beings are special. But I would also argue that so are dolphins, elephants, apes, monkeys, whales, dogs, cats, horses, etc, each in their own unique and wonderful ways. I just draw the line at equivalency.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 

It is not an issue of intelligence but soveriegnty.

Of course animals have different and arguably superior intelligences...
...but none other than man has radah dominion or rule...
...an awesome responsibility we routinely abuse for commerce and amusement.




posted on May, 29 2010 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Geeky_Bubbe
 



We are the only earthly creatures that can contemplate the invisible.


Yeah right...
You can read animal minds I presume ?
The 'invisible' could very well be an illusion.

The use of technology relies on the anatomy of man. I would love to see flipper use a tool but that's probably not gonna happen.

I don't really think it's special to be ( as a species ) single handed resposible for the destruction and pollution of the environment and the extinction of countless other lifeforms.

So it depends on the definition of special.

Killer whales actually do understand what they eat and kill to get their delicacy.
Try and feed a cat something it doesn't like.

PS.
Althoug it may look like it. My reply to you is not intended to offend you in any way.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.



[edit on 5/29/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 

It is not an issue of intelligence but soveriegnty.

Of course animals have different and arguably superior intelligences...
...but none other than man has radah dominion or rule...
...an awesome responsibility we routinely abuse for commerce and amusement.



Responsibility ?

Who told you this nonsense ? Without man Nature will do much better.

The majority does not even know what responsibility means.

What does Radah mean ?



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Sinter Klaas

Originally posted by troubleshooter
reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 

It is not an issue of intelligence but soveriegnty.

Of course animals have different and arguably superior intelligences...
...but none other than man has radah dominion or rule...
...an awesome responsibility we routinely abuse for commerce and amusement.



Responsibility ?

Who told you this nonsense ? Without man Nature will do much better.

The majority does not even know what responsibility means.

What does Radah mean ?

So you don't regard man as part of nature?
What is man then?




posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


Rest assured, I'm not in the least offended.

Would you care to point me to any other earthly creature that can imagine that matter is made of atoms, which in turn, are made of up of smaller "bits". Would you point me to another that can grasp gravity. Light waves. Oxygen. Carbon dioxide. Zero.

Sure, we have fouled our environment. But, we have also cleaned it up. I remember gray snow, burning rivers, dead lakes, harbors so toxic that it boggles the 2010 mind. Today, the snow is white again, rivers no longer catch on fire, lakes have been rehabilitated, and harbors now allow for marine life to exist.

So, I suppose, not only do I believe that human beings are "special" as discussed within the scope of this thread, I also do not believe human beings are a disease the earth would be better off without.

Human beings, whether a popular thought or not, are a *part* of nature. A valid part of the "web of life", every bit as much as the eagle, the dolphin, or the lowly snail. We are every bit a "child of Gaia" as the lion on the Serengeti or the great white shark in the ocean; yes, I chose predators with deliberateness.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 


I do consider man to be part of nature.
My comments were pointed at sovereignty and responsibility.

What does Radah mean ?

[edit on 5/29/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by Geeky_Bubbe
 


I'd like to point you to the anatomical limits that prevents animals from making a telescope. There are also animals that use the invisible like sonar and infra red light.
We simply do not know what animals think.

I'd like to add that I agree with you.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by troubleshooter
 

I do consider man to be part of nature.
My comments were pointed at sovereignty and responsibility.

Either we have some moral responsibility to use our natural abilities in the service of nature or we are just a natural force...
...and our actions whether to protect or destroy have no moral meaning at all.


What does Radah mean ?

It is a Hebrew word meaning soveriegnty, dominion or rule...
...it is the word used in the Genesis manuscript.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

It carries the sense of being in charge, to manage as a gardener would.

As I said, humans are either a natural force beyond moral responsibility or we have the responsibility to 'manage' nature...
...I can't think of a third option...can you?



[edit on 30/5/10 by troubleshooter]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by troubleshooter
 



Either we have some moral responsibility to use our natural abilities in the service of nature or we are just a natural force...
...and our actions whether to protect or destroy have no moral meaning at all.

As I said, humans are either a natural force beyond moral responsibility or we have the responsibility to 'manage' nature...
...I can't think of a third option...can you?


Thank you for your explanation


A third option...?

What about our natural drive to reproduce and spread our genes. The responsibility our offspring can spread our genes in the future.

IMO. We don't have to be a ruling class to do so. Our meddling is responsible for almost all the problems around today.

That's why I say that we are not special. This special feeling makes us feel better and behave as idiots, destroying the world we live in. If we came to a point where we would consider our selves part of nature. Maybe... just maybe, we will start acting like it.



posted on Jun, 1 2010 @ 06:01 AM
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No animal on this planet poisons it's own habitat, I always felt humanity lost its roots with nature.

Our technological breakthroughs made us smarter, but certainly not wiser or more responsible toward the mess we create.

Human evolution, 1 step forward, 2 steps back.




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