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Origins of the illuminati

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posted on May, 30 2010 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Resentedhalo08


There are many sources, but due to a lot of the research I have conducted throughout the past few years I have not kept a record of links etc.

I should have been clearer and cited some some sources, an error I will shortly sort out.


Look I really don't want to give you a hard time here. But first of all as you may have noticed the illuminati is a rather hot issue; the signal/noise ratio is just so tilted to noise that most people don't have any clue about the real, historic Illuminati.

As smarter people than me above have commented it seems your are dealing with the fictional illuminati, not the historic ones. There's plenty of posters on here with extensive knowledge of the hisotric illuminati and they will be ticked off by a thread that basically consists of the usual pseudo-historical BS that is picked up on any obscure blog.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just trying to explain the reactions. Most people who have actually done real research, like learning german and reading the original documents and literature will be ticked off when you call randomly googling unsourced stuff and then providing that as a source... A mash up of different blogs and such that basically restates the pseudohistory of your video will probably not be accepted by too many people.

As an above post explain, nowadays Terry's Book, Perfictibilitsts, is the benchmark against or upon which objective, reproducable investigations are made. And given that benchmark your thread basically fails to even be historic - you're confounding myth with history.

This really is meant in a cooperative sense. I remember the times before I realized that most of those claims are really unfounded or lack serious evidence. With the illuminati subject you will get these kind of reactions, I have to say these kind of threads even provoke me - and I wouldn't even consider myself as knowledgeable on the subject as some of the above posters are.




posted on May, 30 2010 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by Gaussq
Most of the Illuminati families are former jesuits gone undercover. They even took nazism into Germany(SS general Himmler was a jesuit sorcerer) and Stalin was a jesuit priest.... Always on both sides of every war controlling their puppets...


So you are asserting that the concept of Ariosophy, a split from the Theosophical Society, was somehow all a Jesuit plot to make the Germans into an esoteric collection of Aryan Supermen?



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by And Why

So you are asserting that the concept of Ariosophy, a split from the Theosophical Society, was somehow all a Jesuit plot to make the Germans into an esoteric collection of Aryan Supermen?



Funny how they know so much about Himmler's true beliefs when that is one of history's true unsolved mysteries, isn't it?

It's always a Babuschka-kind of situation with pseudohistory like this - if the illuminati theory doesn't work then it's the jesuits and they of course were founded by some obscure, never identifid babylon mystery religion. ...

my 2 cents, completely pointless. This thread just fascinates me, somehow.



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by Resentedhalo08

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
You produce unfounded speculation, I countered with highly relevant, soundly researched web pages on the subject. Produce some evidence to back up your contentions please, otherwise at best it is baseless conjecture. Worst, complete fantasy.


unfounded speculation, baseless conjecture, and complete fantasy? I don't think so... Ok I shall state some of the things that I said in my video.


Yes it is until you cite some sources for your grand conspiracy narrative here. The Burden of proof is on you. The following individual points that you do have correct don't amount to proving your overarching theory of a single, unified Illuminist order existing from the time you claim and moving through epochs as per Dan Brown novels.



Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Date of the foundation of the illuminati being founded being highly disputed and argued about. FACT


Which Illuminati excactly? You seem to slip slide between the mythical conspiracy Illuminati and the Bavarian Illuminati, conflating them both. The Bavarian Illuminati was indisputably founded on May 1st, 1776. Page 17 of Terry Melanson's definitive account of the order, Perfectibilists: The 18th Century Bavarian Order of the Illuminati:



"1776 - May 1.
Weishaupt founds the Order of the Illuminati with an original membership of five."


Some Google results also here.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
The Crusades, securing of pilgrimage routes and aqquiring of new knowledge from the east, Esoteric and occult knowledge. FACT


The acquisition of esoteric lore by certain camps in the Crusades during this time, yes. Almost certainly. How does this prove your grand theory though exactly?


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
The illuminati being the complete opposite of what they are today, a secret society of intellectuals who were driven underground for fear of persecuition by the Christian Church. FACT


"What they are today?" Sorry, sounds like fiction to me. Please produce evidence of an order today calling themselves the "Illuminati." Sounds more like the plot from Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons" to me.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Alchemists of the dark ages 11th, 12th 13th centuries and beyond practicing this occult knowledge for various uses. FACT


Mind bogglingly obvious. And this proves which part of your conjecture on the origins of the "Illuminati"?


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
The Knights Templar gaining a vast amount of wealth quickly and subsequently being hunted down by the Christian Church for crimes of heresy, occult rituals etc. FACT


Hunted down by Philip le Bel for their immense wealth and power would be more like it, with the Catholic Church a more unwilling participant.
Ye olde trick of this time was to tarnish the reputation of an enemy with accusations of heresy and sexual impropriety. Tried and tested tactic. My mind is open to possible heterodox belief systems held by the Knights of the Temple but contrary to popular belief, conspiracy lore, and fascinating books written by Freemasons it's not an out and out fact.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08

Remaining Knights Templar and other individuals who held the same belief systems holding positions of power, pollitically and religiously due to their high standing and wealth being untouchable. FACT


Sounds like more Holy Blood, Holy Grail stuff to me. Is that book your chief source BTW?
It's more profitable to look at their effective merger upon dissolution with the Knights Hospitaller. To all intents and purposes they took everything the Templars had left.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Sinister occult ritual practice and beliefs which are today considered "satanic" being practiced by these induviduals. FACT


Myth and legend generated as the result of a royal psy-op is probably more like it.
Mentioned previously.
But this is where I get confused with you, one of many times. The Illuminist underground stream of yours (that has a major link in the chain in the Templars) has the order as both practising occult Satanists invoking dark powers and employing Lucifer as the emblem of enlightenment and the powers associated with the Age of Reason. The latter absolutely abjures the former.
Which one is it?


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Original teachings of christ being that of the gnostics and subsequently the gnostic books being banned by the church for their "opposing" and "contradictory" message. FACT


No. Not fact. Contemporary scholarship on this subject currently identifies the Gnostic stream as a later reaction to orthodox Christianity.

See here for copied quotes from the esteemed Themelios journal from leading Gnostic scholars.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Christ going to Egypt for a number of years. FACT


Source please.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Various Holy Grail legends in the Langduoc region of France. FACT


A myth is not a historical fact. In that such a motif doesn't provide a sound source to prove anything in historical terms.


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Merovignion (sp?) kings of France and their Bloodline. FACT


Again, this proves your grand Illuminist contention in what way exactly?


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
The gnostic beliefs of the Cathars and their subsequent persecution by the Christain Church. FACT


See above.

Continued in following post


[edit on 31/5/10 by Extant Taxon]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Luciferianism being an antithesis of enlightenment? You really show your ignorance here, do you even know what Luciferian beliefs are? They believe in aqquiring further knowledge and enlightenment, now that's hardly at odds with it is it?!?


As I mentioned previously, there is massive incongruence between the use of Lucifer as a symbol of the enlightened, rational mind that abhors superstition, conjuration, and all such medieval practices and the use of occult ritual in the spritual and demonic magic sense. According to you they seem to do both.
Either they practise one or the other, there is no in between here.
You can of course see my confusion now perhaps.

I haven't come across the notion of a rational Satanist before.

Besides, if we stick to just to the Bavarian Illumanati my answer is well served. Though the icon of Lucifer was fully in the mix in the Enlightenment I believe I recall that they never employed it as a particular symbol of the order. The Owl of Minerva was their chief symbol. They also certainly would not have employed occult rites and magical invocations that would have been anathema to their hightened sense of their own reason. Weishaupt despised mysticism and such "superstitions."


Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
All I have done is researched into some things and connected some dots and the picture that it paints is blindingly obvious.


The only thing blindingly obvious here is your inability to back up your wild speculation with any proof.


Anyway, to be quite honest I may have been somewhat harsh in tone, though I rescind none of the points I've made here. Facts remain facts and actually can construct meaningful narratives that may illuminate the past, present, and future. Speculation; though entertaining, merely shoots the breeze.
I've been to the exact same areas of research as you and unfortunately these days I can be quite uppity when I see complete bull***t being promulgated. But then this is just ATS conspiratainment here. Maybe I shouldn't take this too seriously.


Or should I?


Take a look at the following links some sound research along the lines you are following. I have read them and can recommend them.

Qadosh: The Johannite Tradition

Scribd.com: The Secret History of Freemasonry: Its Origins and Connection to the Knights Templar - Paul Naudon

Look into anything by Malcolm Berber on the Knights of the Temple.

Do have a look at Terry Melanson's book on the Bavarian Illuminati that I mentioned in previous posts.

I think that The Templar Revelation: Secret Guardians of the True Identity of Christ by Picknett & Prince is a book that would be right up your alley. Very well researched speculation it is.




[edit on 30/5/10 by Extant Taxon]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by Resentedhalo08
Remaining Knights Templar and other individuals who held the same belief systems holding positions of power, pollitically and religiously due to their high standing and wealth being untouchable. FACT
I'll call BS on this one. You're going to have to name names... Who exactly were these "high power" Templar sympathizers who went untouched by King Philip's and Pope Clement's witch-hunt?



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by And Why
 


I can not say I understand all of your words there.

In this type of large forum there is bound to be alot of "professional people" of course, and I respect all of you anyway, each one must make a living.

However, speaking of facts we know the jesuits are the oldest and largest secret society active today and still with a black sorcerer "superior general" pope leading their troops around the world. How many of you know ofthe back pope, Hans Peter Kolvenbach etc?

Take a look at pictures of these "people"......

The jesuits were a global force several hundred years ago and they managed to infiltrate most countries around the world. Just take a look at the current US, EU government politicians, many are bound to be jesuits, ie Joe Biden and Barroso. At MIT, Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge etc, you will find professors who are jesuits everywhere.

A jesuit can put on any dress he wants to, that is the age-old trick they use.

However, I do believe the last German emperor(The Kaiser's Memoirs) and General Ludendorff were honest(being in opposition to the sorcerer jesuits) and right when he pointed to Asia saying the jesuits are now controlled by Asian sorcerer priests.

In fact after WW2 there were lots of dead Buddhist monks found in Berlin.

Nazism and Marxism were both inventions of the same controlling force. You can easily discern the scheme by looking closely at the leading people of Nazi Germany(Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, Göbbels, Hess etc) and then Lenin(free mason) and Stalin(jesuit priest), Rasputin etc in Russia.

Remember Karl Marx said he was controlled by Satan when he was 18 years old. Later he was trained by jesuits at the London library for 30 years. He was just their puppet like Hitler and Stalin(at the beginning).

Is the controlling force human today? I don´t believe so.

Is their time soon up? Yes, very soon!

So the important thing for each person is finding the solution before too late.



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by Gaussq
 


Gaussq,

Respectfully, I've never seen any "meat" in the continuing promotion of the idea that the Jesuits are the major controlling interest on the world scene. All those who invest heavily into this paradigm ever seem to do is point to photos of well known geo-political figures with high ranking elements of the Society of Jesus as uncontestable evidence of being "temporal coadjutors." This strikes me as the theory having no foundation whatsoever.

The Jesuits certainly are an important study in the evolution of secret societies and the Old World Order power base of the Renaissance, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation eras but I don't believe they hold any real sway today.



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 04:22 AM
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How can you say there is "no meat" when your senate and house of representatives are full of jesuits and your vice president is a jesuit too?

The current EU president is a jesuit too....

Excuse me but your comment does not hold ground based on statistics of current politicians. Why do you think the jesuits would ever have given away any of their former power? Obama is under total control as we all can see.

Read the quotes from the famous people on them. History does not lie, the winner might be able to cover up a little bit in the schoolbook only.

What is now interesting is the aliens taking over power during the 20th century, primarily using jesuits as their henchmen in the west.

Most of the leading jesuits look like "dead hearts".... Who are they really?.. Anyone thought about it?

We know from newspapers some(alot it seems) dark priests are gay and some even take interest in male kids.

If they are doing such things while being priests is it not likely they are also interested in arcane stuff? The black masses that Rivera told us about.... There is no limit to what these people can do.

PS: www.youtube.com...



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by Gaussq

What is now interesting is the aliens taking over power during the 20th century, primarily using jesuits as their henchmen in the west.



With that reply I'll take my leave.



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 04:53 AM
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this is where the 'Illuminati' meme got started --->> 1797, John Robison
John Robison, "Proofs of a Conspiracy against all the Religions and Governments of Europe"
(Americanist Classics 1967 [1797])



the tyranny of the masses under the invisible control of unknown superiors,
and a new era of ‘darkness over all'.
(1)= John Robison, "Proofs of a Conspiracy" p.131


www.realitysandwich.com...
Authored by: Mike Jay

++++++++++++=
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
-Frederic Bastiat


1797 is the birth of the modern idea of an 'Illuminati' at least as i understand things

which is quite different than the minds from the era called 'the Enlightenment'...which was after the Dark-Ages, brought about by the Papal Church



posted on May, 31 2010 @ 05:53 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio

this is where the 'Illuminati' meme got started --->> 1797, John Robison
John Robison, "Proofs of a Conspiracy against all the Religions and Governments of Europe"
(Americanist Classics 1967 [1797])



I think Barruel predates Robison by a decade or so. Barruel is the first of those christian "grand illuminati satanist plot" propagandists, Robison certainly built on Barruel's biases.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 01:36 PM
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Hi,
i saw this thread and was immidiately entrigued as i purely joined this site for that one purpose, the illuminati. i have been researching about the illuminati for two years now since i read the books by Dan Brown. i watched your video and agree with alot of your points. however i do have extensive research over this topic and if we could get in touch via email or messaging on this site i can tell you alot more on the subject. sorry for other people who have replied to this post but what he has said is all true, but if you are to very interested on the subject pleases message me or ask for my contact and im sure we can go much deeper into this conspiracy, if it is a conspiracy that is....

thesmileyman



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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Just for the record, Lenin was never a Freemason, Stalin was never a Jesuit nor a priest, and Marx never said anything about he being "controlled by Satan", a being he always considered mythological and silly (nor did he ever study with Jesuits).

Now, carry on....



posted on Jun, 8 2010 @ 06:14 PM
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Did they fund Germany during WWII?
And then fund America to fight Germany?
Why not.
If I were in an Illuminati think tank that would have set me up
for life in my own sphere of influence.
Think of all the Manhattan buildings that housed corporations
and see the only ones left since 1945.
I think the Illuminati moved out.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 05:37 AM
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The origins of freemasonry: Hope im not off topic havn't bothered reading the whole thread yet.

The discovery of the lost meanings of Masonic terms in medieval French gives vital support to the hypothesis of the birth of Masonry in the French-speaking Knights Templar, and provides a matching time frame. There remained no reasonable doubt that Freemasonry had originated in the plight and the flight of the Knights of the Temple, an organization uniquely equipped to form a secret society quickly, since so much of their own order had functioned in secrecy with codes, passwords, and its own spy system.

The Templar order was founded in Jerusalem in 1118, in the aftermath of the First Crusade. Its name came from the location of its first headquarters on the site of the ancient Temple of Solomon. Helping to fill a desperate need for a standing army in the Holy Land, the Knights of the Temple soon grew in numbers, in wealth, and in political power. They also grew in arrogance, and their Grand Master de Ridfort was a key figure in the mistakes that led to the fall of Jerusalem in 1187.


[edit on 9-6-2010 by Serizawa]



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 05:43 AM
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The Old Charges of ancient Masonry defined a secret society of mutual protecpon. What the "lodge" was doing was assisting brothers in hiding from the wrath of church and state, providing them with money, vouching for them with the authorities, even providing the "lodging" that gave Freemasonry the unique term for its chapters and their meeting rooms. Freemasonry had been born as a society of mutual protection among fugitive Templars and their associates in Britain, men who had gone underground to escape the imprisonment and torture that had been ordered for them by Pope Clement V. Their antagonism toward the,Church was rendered more powerful by its total secrecy.

More than six hundred years have passed since the suppression of the Knights Templars but their heritage lives on in the largest fraternal organization ever known. And so the story of those tortured crusading knights, of the-savagery ofthe Peasants' Revolt, and of the. lost secrets of Freemasonry becomes the story of the most successful secret society in the history of the world.

The end!



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:55 AM
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Some videos have interesting tales on the Templars as they
seemed to have gone into banking and finance.
However after the French suppression much of the fleets for commerce
fled to other ports.

I have a clip on the accepted origin and the update for control
of the Tesla Foo/saucer/Triangle UFOs of today:

Origin:

In his original foundations for the Bavarian Illuminati, officially instituted by Adam Weishaupt on May 1,1776, his stated purposes were good: “Princes and nations will disappear... Reason will be the only code of man. “ Weishaupt recognized no divine power outside of Man, and often referred to “...Nature and Nature’s God”.



Update WWII:

Their purpose was the control of the world through religion. To this end, a new religion, called “OSTARA “—‘designed’ by Georg Lanz von Liebenfels—was promoted through the S.S. and the Thule Society. This new Nazi religion used ancient religious mythology as its basis, falsely depicting the ‘gods’ as “aliens”. For example, the Egyptian God of Darkness, Apepi (Apophis), a serpent, was claimed to be a “reptilian alien god” which lived under the Great Pyramid at Giza. In the mass-psychology experiment, the Nazi alien religion was used to stretch the credulity of the German people, so they would believe whatever Big Lies their government told them. It was decided in 1923 that Adolf Hitler was to lead the German people in this experiment, to culminate in a mass suicide of the German people, in a “Wagnerian tragedy”, then to fake his own suicide and make his secret exit. After the fall of Germany, and “destruction of the weak”, the Illuminati “New World Order” was to come into being in 1945, as the United Nations. Hitler handed over the flying saucer secrets to his benefactors in the Trilateral Commission, in a secret deal cut between the World Bankers and Industrialists, Trilateralists, CFR, Rockefellers and the Nazis, with the U. S. government acting as “security guard.” The Nazi alien religion has since been promoted covertly by the U. S. government to conceal the flying saucer secrets, so that “UFOs” can be depicted as “alien technology”, and kept from the people.


Present day:

The exact same Nazi alien religion is being promoted covertly today by the U. S. government and the Illuminati, through fancy, well-financed TV productions, books, movies, UFOlogy and New Age groups, which spread the lie that flying saucers are “extraterrestrial”, to serve the dual purpose of concealing flying saucer technology and hypnotizing the American masses. We have an InterNazi government.


Link:



Nowhere to take that: no bank, no mass media, no president
as it is not to be exposed or decomposed.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by Serizawa


The discovery of the lost meanings of Masonic terms in medieval French gives vital support to the hypothesis of the birth of Masonry in the French-speaking Knights Templar, and provides a matching time frame. There remained no reasonable doubt that Freemasonry had originated in the plight and the flight of the Knights of the Temple


I would argue that this is not the case. The Regius Manuscript describes a Masonic gathering at York, England in the 9th century. If the story is correct, it would mean that Freemasonry predates the Knights Templar by at least a century, and quite probably a lot more.



posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 


Officially the Knights Templar was created after the recovery of Jerusalem from the Moslems after the first Christian Crusade in 1099 AD. But in truth the Knights existed from the first Century AD to defend the faithful and the Pope. Although not called Templars until 1099 AD, they existed to smuggle the saints and the most important relics of the Church out of the Holy Land and into Europe from just before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD until 1099 AD.




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