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Martinism, eh?

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posted on Jun, 8 2004 @ 09:42 PM
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Hello. I was wondering if anyone out there knows anything about those Martinists folks? Is there a big difference between their teachings and some of the other western mystery traditions? It seems that they are mainly teachers of esoteric christianity..Just curious..

Thanks,
Heather




posted on Jun, 8 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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There is a Martinist Masonic order called Rite of Strict Observance, Knights Beneficent of the Holy City (CBCS). The Order is based upon Christian mysticism, with rich Alchemical symbolism.
There are other non-Masonic Martinist groups, but I don’t know much about them.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Jun, 8 2004 @ 10:10 PM
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Good to see you on the board again once more. You were missed



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 08:51 AM
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Martinism orginated with Louis Claude de Saint-Martin (pronounced 'san martan') in the late eighteenth century. Saint-Martin was a student of Martinez de Pasquale, and was a member of the Elu Cohen. After years of study the teachings of the Elu Cohen, Saint-Martin began to be uncomfortable with its theurgical teachings, and later tried to move the order away from theurgy and towards Gnostic Christian Mysticism. He was unsuccessful. Eventually, Saint-Martin resigned from both the Elu Cohen and Freemasonry.

As time passed, Saint-Martin continued to study, teach, and write about philosophy and esotericism. He soon began to gather a following. Out of this was born the S.I., commonly referred to as the 'Society of Initiates', but more correctly known as the 'Superieurs Inconnus'. Upon becoming an initiate, a body of knowledge is 'transmitted' from teacher to student. Any true Martinist can prove his lineage of transmission in a straight unbroken line directly back to Saint-Martin.

There are several psuedo-Martinist groups out there, however, any of these which are connected to either the Elu Cohen or to Freemasonry are not in the true spirit of Martinism, as Saint-Martin rejected both of these organizations. Many of these so-called Martinist groups have also created a number of 'degrees', but this too is counter to Saint-Martin's teachings, he was opposed to elaborate ceremonies and orders. You either are an S.I., or you are not.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by swordsman
Eventually, Saint-Martin resigned from both the Elu Cohen and Freemasonry.


There is no evidence that Saint-Martin was ever a Freemason, nor that he ever resigned from Freemasonry. Many claims have been made that he was a Mason, none of which has ever been substantiated by any Lodge records, nor by the writings of Saint-Martin himself.
However, he did have several students who were Masons, and it was these men who developed so-called Martinist Masonry, and not Saint-Martin himself.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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Martinism is a new term to me ML - Could you elaborate?



posted on Jun, 9 2004 @ 12:27 PM
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home.caribsurf.com...

Check this link



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 11:11 AM
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This is a group that is interesting. I do like studying secret societies and what not.

Does anyone here have any experiences with this group - French Mystics - I like the sound of that - being French myself...



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
There is no evidence that Saint-Martin was ever a Freemason, nor that he ever resigned from Freemasonry. Many claims have been made that he was a Mason, none of which has ever been substantiated by any Lodge records, nor by the writings of Saint-Martin himself.



Do you know Saint-Martin? There is no debate whatsoever as to whether or not Saint-Martin was in the Elu Cohen. The full and proper title of the Elu Cohen is, "The Order of Knight Masons, Elect Priests of the Universe". Pasquale received a masonic patent from Bonnie Prince Charles. Not a mason you say? Just because a modern day grand lodge brands a certain rite or group as irregular does not make those members any less of a mason. You will find often times that those who belong to 'clandestine' orders are often far more knowledgable about masonry than 'regular' masons.

Anyway, the point of it was, that in his letters, Saint-Martin clearly spoke of his disdain for elaborate ceremonies which convey nothing, that the point was to convey teachings while keeping things simple.


[edit on 10-6-2004 by swordsman]



posted on Jun, 10 2004 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by swordsman
Do you know Saint-Martin? There is no debate whatsoever as to whether or not Saint-Martin was in the Elu Cohen. The full and proper title of the Elu Cohen is, "The Order of Knight Masons, Elect Priests of the Universe". Pasquale received a masonic patent from Bonnie Prince Charles. Not a mason you say?


I say.
I have no doubt that you’ve read that Saint-Martin was a Mason. Like I’ve said, many people have tried to link him with Freemasonry, as they have with “Bonnie Prince Charles”, i.e., Prince Charles Edward Stuart, who was also not a Mason (and thus could not have issued a Masonic Patent). The fact remains that historical scholars, both within and without the Fraternity, have debunked the spurious claims that these two men were Masons. For more info on Prince Charles Edward Stuart’s alleged connection to the Fraternity, see my articles on Jacobite Masonry in the thread concerning the Ritual of the 32°, as well as the excellent books “Rose Croix: A History of the Ancient and Accepted Rite In England and Wales” by A.C.F. Jackson, and “History of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry” by Harold Van Buren Voorhis.
As for Saint-Martin, he had studied under Paschalis, who had formed the Rite of Elus Cohen. But the evidence that Saint-Martin ever joined this Rite is zilch. What is known for sure is that several Martinists, who were members of Paschalis’ Rite, modified it after the latter’s death to include Martinist teachings, resulting in the “Reformed Rectified Rite”, which eventually merged with several Lodges of the Rite of Strict Observance. This Rite was once again modified, and still exists as the Knights Beneficent of the Holy City.
It is possible, of course, that Saint-Martin became a Freemason, but there is no evidence to support it. There are no Lodge records in existence listing him on the roll, and the claims that he founded Martinist Masonic Rites have been disproved.

Fiat Lvx.





[edit on 10-6-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 08:58 AM
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Believe what you wish. You are clearly not a Martinist. Regardless, we are trying to make the same point. Saint-Martin abhored eloborate rituals. Masonry is all about elaborate rituals. Martinism and Masonry should not be construed as being connected. Any type of 'Masonic-Martinism' is completely contrary to the teachings of Saint-Martin.



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 11:37 AM
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Dear List,

As a Martinist Initiator, a Master Cohen, as well as a former Senior Warden of a regular lodge...I must say that it matters little whether or not Saint-Martin was or wasn't a Mason (regular or what is now deemed otherwise).

The point is that he disliked cermonialism for its own sake. The reason for him joining these mystical esoteric orders was to learn. When the techniques they employed brought about no effects i.e he gained no understanding of the himself or his Mind, Nature, or the Universe and its Laws, then he felt they were a waste of his time. This also happened in the Japan with Tendai and Zen Buddhism. People wished to look within, to understand their condition...not just memorize their lines really well for a ceremony.

As for Saint-Martin being a member of the Elu Cohen, there is no doubt. I refer you to the plethora of personal letters from Saint-Martin to a number of folks within this order including his brother Reaux-Croix, Jean Baptiste Willermoz. You can find these easily online. Eventually Willermoz found folly in the Elu Cohen cosmology and methods hence the birth of the C.B.C.S. For more information on Elu Cohen, there is a new and excellent translation of Martinez de Pasqually's "The Reintegration of Beings" available from a private translator. You can find him through Martinist yahoo groups.

The Order of Knight Masons, Elect Priests of the Universe was just another of the many Masonic groups extant during this period and shortly hereafter. Some complained that there had been too many Rites and so people wanted to solidify what was was recognized and what wasn't. Most of them wanted to illiminate the competition. People are lazy and because this is so, the easier the Rite was in one attaining their degrees, plus add a little bit of politics, the more successful it was. Just sit back and watch the show folks! Now your a 32nd! Donate a large some..a 33rd and a Templar.

In the mid 1800's the Masonic Order threw the proverbial esoteric baby out with the bathwater. After that it was a mere shell of an esoteric system of instruction. What we have left are ceremonies with language so old as to boggel the modern ear, grumpy old men who dream of glory days, and a leadership bent on destroying this venerable Order because they have the power to do so. Don't believe me? Pennsylvania following Ohio's first steps, will be selling the Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, and Shrine degrees during a one day fling. During this Masonic romp, the blue lodge degrees will be exemplified. Interesting if you ask me since this breaks some Landmarks and some oaths I have heard somewhere.

Well, like I say to others who are not involved in Masonry, unless you have gone thorugh some degrees, sat in a lodge and studied its rituals you should reserve comment. I would dare say the same as it goes with any other closed door esoteric orders. There maybe things you are not privy to.

Thanks for reading this post.

Pax Profundis



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by swordsman
Believe what you wish. You are clearly not a Martinist.


I’ve never claimed to be a Martinist, only a Masonic historian.


Regardless, we are trying to make the same point. Saint-Martin abhored eloborate rituals. Masonry is all about elaborate rituals. Martinism and Masonry should not be construed as being connected. Any type of 'Masonic-Martinism' is completely contrary to the teachings of Saint-Martin.


I would certainly challenge your comment that “Masonry is all about elaborate rituals”. Certainly, Masonry does consist of elaborate ceremonial, but if ritual was all there was to Masonry, it would have become extinct long ago.
I do, however, agree with the remainder of your comments, that Saint-Martin possibly would have taken a superficial view of Masonry, regarding it as meaningless pomp.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 01:07 PM
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I have heard of Martinism somewhere, I think it was in some history book I read. It mentioned something about linkage to masons, any idea if thats right anyone? Not too knowledgeable on secret societies..



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 01:13 PM
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Hi:

Anyone remember the original topic that Miss Avalon posted?


Does anyone have any experience with Martinsim ???

Take it easy



posted on Jun, 11 2004 @ 02:35 PM
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Osmosis, did you just not read what the others said?

ME, Avalon asked if anyone knew anything about thes folks, and I think people did. And, AnDruidh, said he was a "Martinist Initiator, a Master Cohen, as well as a former Senior Warden of a regular lodge." So ya, I think he's involved
.



posted on Jun, 12 2004 @ 12:09 PM
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AnDruidh:

Would you mind sharing with us what Martinism entails (basic Beliefs) and what organization are here in the Unites States?

Thanks



posted on Jun, 13 2004 @ 12:21 AM
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In the beginning was the word.

[edit on 13-6-2004 by binidiot]



posted on Jun, 13 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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And that is supposed to mean?

Other than The Gospel of John 1:1...



posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 09:39 AM
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There are many Martinist Orders about these days. Aside from the Rectified Scottish Rite formed by Willermoz, which is decidedly Masonic and operating outside the United States - principally in Switzerland, Belgium, France, etc., the more Theosophical orders, typically associated with the tradition of Louis-Claude de Saint Martin principally derive from two sources:

Gérard Encausse - founder of the Ordre Martiniste, which is still active with its base of operations in Paris; Augustin Chaboseau - founder of the Ordre Martiniste Traditionnel (a version of which is affiliated with the mail order group, AMORC).

Since that time there have been several different Martinist Orders created:
The Ancient Martinist Order - www.ancientmartinistorder.org...
The Ordre Martiniste des Chevaliers du Christ - www.martinistorderknightsofchrist.org...
The British Martinist Order - www.bmosite.org...
The Ordre Martiniste des Pays Bas - kingsgarden.org...
The Martinist Order of Unknown Philosophers - www.moup.org...
The Ordre Martiniste de Papus (the original order founded by Encausse) - www.martinisme.org...
The Ordre Martiniste des Supérieurs Inconnus - www.martinisme.com...
The Rose-Croix Martiniste Order - www.rcmo.org...

There are many others as well...

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Gnostique]



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