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Will there ever be a Messiah in Judaism?

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posted on May, 26 2010 @ 03:11 PM
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Many believe Jesus is the Messiah in the Jewish religion. Which many believe he fulfilled when he was here. Present day Jews say he was not the Messiah promised to be the Messiah of the Jewish people. I would present some curious questions answerd by a Rabbi. Tell me what you think of the issues brought up.
judaism.about.com...




1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will: A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28). B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies. Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.





2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! C. TORAH OBSERVANCE The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)



You can see the other post on the site. Tell me what are your views of the Messiah concept, about Jesus being or not being the Messiah and will a Messiah ever be?




posted on May, 26 2010 @ 03:44 PM
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What I don't understand OP is that why is there a need for Messiah?



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 03:45 PM
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Well, I find this fascinating ..

Try it out !...





posted on May, 26 2010 @ 03:55 PM
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The Rabbi does present some good points in his answers. One point is the necessary of a Messiah.



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 



Since you are asking. There will be a messiah. He is probably alive now. But here is his problem. My best guess is that 2000 years ago someone triggered the curse of Malachi.

If you look at the prophesies of Malachi he says this about Elijah the prophet.

Malachi 3.
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Malachi 5.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Malachi 4 didn't happen 2000 years ago. But look at the historical record of the past 2000 years while referencing Leviticus 26. Oh, and make a note of the double I references in the verses quoted here. It appears when God brings out the double and triple I references well, you are in a heap of trouble.

The temple fell in 70 AD and Masada in 73 AD. Bar Kochba revolt of 130 ad was crushed and the Jewish Diaspora begins. Followed by 1900 years of various inquisitions and pogroms and the Holocaust.

The historical record and the descriptions of a top level Leviticus 26 curse are eerily similar.

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.

So I went looking for more references for this curse and found the book of Hosea.

In that book I again found references to a curse and then figured out something important. According to Hosea 6-2 the Jews and Israelites had been sentenced to a 2 day curse in the presence of God. And according to Psalms 90-4 that is one thousand years per day.

He's coming. Or coming back. However you see the problem is the curse isn't finished yet. Best guess is 2035 which is 70 AD subtract 35 years then add 2000. Or if I toss a Christian prophecy into the mix then I can get 2028. It's a few years off yet.

However if your interested there does seem to be a way to hasten his appearance.

14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

You need to ask for forgiveness on this curse. Teshuva I believe it's called. If I understand the history of the first century BC and AD it appears that the two Herods of the time had a bad habit of killing prophets and chosen ones.

I suspect there is some truth to the story of John the Baptist.




Psalms 105.
15 "Do not touch my anointed ones;
do my prophets no harm.






[edit on 28-5-2010 by ntech]

[edit on 28-5-2010 by ntech]



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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Its amazing , how ignorant we all are of Zionism.
Zionists are working every day in order to self fulfil the conditions on this "heathen "Earth foretold by prophecy inorder to see the 'Judean Messiah" come to Earth in the form of a mortal.
One of the conditions is that all the tribes of the world live side by side ie multiculturism.
Iam afraid if we seek the truth we will find its good for the Jewish people as they will teach us how to live the "correct way", once the Messiah is in place but if palestine is anything to go by it may not be good for "gentiles".
Zionism is all about the security of Israel and fulfilment of Prohesy so their Messiah messiah will be born.

I am not against this per se, but at least it should be discussed openly, instead of the covert nature of its operations currently occurring.
It seems anyone mentioning the word Zionism is equated with Hitler, which just shows how effective the propaganda of zionism is.
You/ I are fools if we believe Zionism isnt alive and growing.
And its all about the coming Messiah.



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by Dr Conspire
 


The problem with your post is you don't understand the religion. According to the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 most or all the people of the world will be descendants of Abraham through Israel. And there has been thousands of years for the genetic mixing to happen.

And Israel is dozens if not hundreds of nations today. That little sliver of land in the middle east is Judah.

Also if there is some validity to the Christian religion then Romans 11 is important too. The olive tree is the family tree of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. A Christian is an adopted Israelite.

And others who think differently don't understand the religion either.



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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Thanks for starting the thread OP.

S and F for that!

Ok so here’s what I think...

The Messiah is amongst us. The timing is perfect. Look around you and see that the world is on the verge of total insanity. The seeds in the fields have grown and are now ripe for the picking. The Messiah is here. The issue is that no one knows who he is yet...you might question this and I ask how I know. Well.... The way I see it is whoever the Messiah turns out to be one thing will be for sure. He won't be normal. He will be able to do something that will distinguish him as the Messiah. Be it a feat a miracle something supernatural perhaps. Without this the hearts and minds of his potential followers will not be one. There would be ridicule and acquisitions running rife.

So for me it is obvious that he would need to do something to separate him from us.

If this is the case then his light would radiate at different frequencies to the rest of us.
If you look at Metaphysics and Quantum Mechanics you can see that there is a world within a world that exists beyond our grasp of total understanding. It is like a world of magic where our rules do not apply to it. The messiah would have a deep connection to this world and would as a result be able to do amazing things. Meditate out of body, Communicate telepathically, even time travel via thoughts.

My claim is that this man exists, this Messiah, however the divine penny hasn’t dropped. I know in my heart of hearts that if he was who he is meant to be then there would be nothing hidden about it. His energy would just pour out into the world and nothing would be able to stop it. It wouldn’t sit waiting hiding.

To conclude my thoughtful rant...

I would safely say the Messiah is not yet fully realised. What I mean by this is that the man has not yet become the Messiah. He is fighting a personal battle with the daemons inside him. It is once he wins this battle and let’s loose the daemons that he will attain the power within the hidden world. It will rush through him like a Kundalini serpent or the total wisdom of the ancient books. No one knows who this chap is. He even battles with his own self identity. He is one of us and he is afraid.

The way the world is going with all the madness and changes and the quickening, it is obvious that by 2012 we would have seen a total revolution of humanity. The conscious mind is a powerful thing. The global consciousness is beginning to take root and soon there will be a oneness coming about in all things. A synthesis. The fish will have swam its final journey and the new dawn will begin. The Age of Aquarius. And with every new age there is a sacrifice. The Messiah that the world will accept will in fact become known in time as the antichrist. Slewed at the hands of the almighty himself. TPTB.

Before that happens many things will come to light, least of all our awakening of ourselves. Our divine purpose and the fact that we are of God.

Lucifer, Ibliss, The Jinn, Satan, Antichrist or whatever name you want to give it will rise up to power and will be slain.

That is when the world will enter its new cycle on the earth with renewable and free energy, new technology to cure illness and plentiful food. Before that happens we will see Armageddon and the apocalypse and many will die. Mountains will fall, Aliens will land and claim their connection to the Messiah. The will orchestrate and plot the course and destiny of the Messiah and he will lead the people to the ultimate truth. They all are antichrist and they have been condemned to hell and suffering. When Humanity finally defeats the evils within itself it will have evolved into an enlightened being. Its growth into adulthood would have been completed.

Life is created through great pain. Mother earth is now giving birth to her child, the Messiah and with that will come the birth pangs and then birth.

It may be far fetched for you to grasp now but the future will unravel it all.



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by ntech
reply to post by Dr Conspire
 


The problem with your post is you don't understand the religion. According to the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 most or all the people of the world will be descendants of Abraham through Israel. And there has been thousands of years for the genetic mixing to happen.

And Israel is dozens if not hundreds of nations today. That little sliver of land in the middle east is Judah.

Also if there is some validity to the Christian religion then Romans 11 is important too. The olive tree is the family tree of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. A Christian is an adopted Israelite.

And others who think differently don't understand the religion either.




You do understand that Orthodox jews do not share your views?
Zionism and the Torah /Bible quite clearly state that it is necessary for the Messiah of Israel to be born only when certain prophecies have been fulfilled?
Then the Israelite will become the priests of the Earth and teach us the non israelites how to live with God.
Iam not anti Israel nor anti Jewish nor anti Zionist in fact I would like to learn more, but it would be good for someone who is neutral who is more learned than I to educate us all about Zionism, instaed of denying it exists, which is actually insulting to Zionists?



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 
Ugggh, Daniel told the Jews the EXACT day their messiah would ride into Jerusalem on an ass as King. Zechariah confirmed it.

Link



[edit on 29-5-2010 by NOTurTypical]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Anyone could ride on a donkey. Millions of people have done it.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Anyone could ride on a donkey. Millions of people have done it.
Red herring. Yes that's correct, but what does that have to do with Jesus doing it at the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem on the exact day fortold by Daniel some 500 years beforehand??

Absolutely nothing. Jesus was the only one riding into Jerusalem as a king on an ass with people waiving palm branches on that specific day as fortold by Daniel. That's why Jesus told them they had "missed their day of visitation".

if the significance is still lost on you, READ THE LINK provided.


[edit on 29-5-2010 by NOTurTypical]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


To me, if Jesus was real, did not fulfill the messiah prophecy. Read the link I posted a while ago. You'll be surprised.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


To me, if Jesus was real, did not fulfill the messiah prophecy. Read the link I posted a while ago. You'll be surprised.
Of course He did. however Jews don't realize some prophecies dealt with His first coming and some deal with His 2nd coming. They lump them all into one coming of the messiah.

There are numerous prophecies that state the messiah will be killed. And prophecies that also state that he will rule forever as king of kings from the throne of David. Now how the heck can the messiah both be killed and reign forever on the throne of David???

A: Two comings of the messiah, one as the lamb of God, and the 2nd as the Lion of Judah.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:50 PM
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Okay, for the sake of argument, we'll look past the METHOD the messiah would arrive into Jerusalem. The point being, Daniel told the Jews the exact day their messiah would arrive into Jerusalem, down to the very day.

Zechariah also confirmed this, he was the most spoken prophet about the Messiah, in fact his prophecies mirroring Daniels were so precise that Jews for centuries claimed that he wrote after the death of Jesus...

But oooooooooops, archaeologists found Zechariah in the caves when they unearthed the Dead Sea scrolls.

Ouuch.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


What do you think about the case Jews present Jesus not being the Messiah?



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


What do you think about the case Jews present Jesus not being the Messiah?
Simply, it's plain to me that they do not separate the 2 comings of the messiah. The TOTALITY of the messianic prophecies cannot be fulfilled unless there are more than one coming. The messiah cannot both die and rule forever as the king of kings from the throne of David if there is only one appearance. It's impossible. There must be more than one for EVERY prophecy to be fulfilled.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Can you post something to support you cause. I don't understand a need for a Messiah then. Where's God in the picture?



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Can you post something to support you cause. I don't understand a need for a Messiah then. Where's God in the picture?
Look at these prophecies, just focus on the ones on the left hand side, those are the OT prophecies, the ones on the right side are the NT fulfillment.

You'll see after some time doing this that it's impossible for the messiah to come only once, there must be a 2nd coming to Earth for ALL the prophecies to be fulfilled.

HERE

The CHIEF need among any other need for the messiah is He has taken away the sins of the world, reconciled man to God. This is also the significance of the veil in the holy of holies tearing in two at the crucifixion of Jesus, man now can come straight to God in prayer without the need of a priest. Josephus even documents the veil in the holy of holies tearing in two down the center at the death of Jesus on the cross. The greastest thing the messiah did was die as the lamb of God.

This was also alluded to by God when He had Abraham offer his son on the alter in Genesis, it was foretelling how God would offer His only Son, Jesus, as a sacrifice.

Chew on the link for a while, look up the verses yourself in the OT, and try to look at them from 2 standpoints, the Jewish standpoint that the messiah would only come once, and then the Christian standpoint that the messiah must come twice for all to be fulfilled.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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Specifically, Daniel is telling us that the messiah, or "anointed one" will be killed, and exactly when He would be killed.

"After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Daniel 9:26

And this verse also says that He will come before the destruction of the 2nd temple, or as Daniel says it "sanctuary". If you look up the Hebrew word for "cut off" in a concordance for Daniel 9:26, you'll see that the Hebrew word used means "executed".

It's impossible for the messiah to reign forever on the throne of David and to be executed if there is only one coming of the Anointed One of God. Utterly impossible.



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