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posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by wmd_2008


No actually it was due to a lack of understanding about the world around them that caused the creation of gods.

Take for instance thunder in Northern Europe the Norse people had Thor the god of thunder they had NO idea what caused thunder so a thunder god was made up.

In ancient china people did not understand how a solar eclispe happened SO the sky dragon was eating the sun.

Now do you think thunder is caused by Thor or the sky dragon eats the sun.

Thats how gods come about fear and a lack of understanding of the world surrounding them so to solve the problem gods were created by MAN


i agree with the above and will add;
if mans consciousness/awareness identifies with his mind, and perceives a universe, he then invents a god to explain the apparent creation/perception.

we appear to have freewill, but perhaps all we can do is either identify with our mind or not.

as i've stated in other threads; i gained a far better understanding of the bible after studying ancient yoga philosophy. prior to that it seemed like a fairytale. especially the adam/eve/eden story.
the "christ" is a heightened state of consciousness of cosmic proportions. it is not jesus's surname.

it would appear that god is allowing evil to manifest by giving satan a free reign for the time being. (according to an earlier post). that makes him/her/it an accessory after the fact. not to mention satans capacity for evil and god creating all things.




posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by fizzy1
 




Oh and btw i thought the whole concept of omniscience is that he doesnt choose to turn it off and on its just something he is.


I had to laugh at this one
poor choice of words or a multitude on thoughts maybe? sorry no pun intended.. but an omnipotent god surely has the ability to choose to do something like that...
for the rest of your comment, I'll keep it short (we can continue tomorow) you forget an important player... satan the devil is the one ochestrating things.. the only thing god is doing/ gonna do is put a stop to it at aa certian point.

good night...


Ok good point on the omnipotent comment. I guess what i was saying is that there doesnt seem to be a basis for god choosing to know or not know. Its just accepted that all things are known to him. Not all things are known to him if he wants to look them up and know them. He sees everything and knows all without having to make a effort to.

As far as the devil goes i think we have some very differing ideas of the devil. You can lookup my other posts on other threads regarding the devil.

Personally i dont think that the people who interpret isaiah and other books regarding lucifer and satan are getting it right. The jews do not believe in a fallen angel called lucifer and yet its their books which make up the old testament that are cited as evidence of his existence.

I believe in devils and satans, accusers and adversaries if you will as the words are translated but not the words being used as a proper name for a being.

Thats people reading too much of paradise lost and the divine comedy. Both of which are not biblical. Unless of course your reading books from the pseudepigrapha or apocryphal books like enoch and so on.
I have mentioned before that the actual story of the fall of satan from heaven with an army of rebel angels doesnt occur in the canonical bible. If it does please hit me up with book/chapter and verses.

Depending on if your catholic or protestant will depend on which books ar ein your bible so this again is another example of how much christianity differs in its acceptance of what is ok and not ok

The funny thing here is that not all christian churches can be 100% in agreement with what they believe when it comes to such things as angels and archangels and the interpretation of the nephalim and the flood etc etc. I could go on and on. The point being is that even during the time of the council of nicea they disagreed on the divinity of christ being the son of god. The arians arguing a very valid point that jesus was a creation of god and not always with god during the time of the creation. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation and jesus own statement of god being greater than he is.

The other end of the argument is that jesus is considered the word of god and in the begining there was the word and the word was with god. That jesus is of the same substance god is and therefore is one and the same. The saying "I and the father are one" And the father is in me and i in the father is supposed to be jesus's definition of his divinity.

Eventually they did come to a vote that overwhelmingly favored the divinity of jesus as the son of god as is well known now. The point i make is that what if Arius had gained more of a following with his so called heretical ideas about the christology and the vote had went his way. He was a beleiver in christ and kept to the word of god and tried to be a good christian yet his doctrines differed from that of the mainstream church at the time and he even had many who followed his way of thinking. Does that make him evil? Is he going to hell? If so then by whose standards? Who gets to decide that because there seems to be no 100% concensus in what anything in the bible means among even the smallest percentage of the christian church.

Even during the time of the 1st council they had to decide on things as the meaning of words that were not understood by speakers of other languages other than greek. Linguistics has always played a part in the translation of books of the bible and is in my mind therefore subject to very close scrutiny before acceptance of faith.


I will never take what i am told or what i read on blind faith without further understanding of what it is that i am being told or reading. To do this is not only dangerous but stupid. Its also childish to not question and want to understand. Anytime a christian tells me i just have to accept it on faith i wonder why they think god would expect you to be a mindless moron and believe everything your told by anyone claiming to be a messenger of god or speaking gods word. Well actually he doesnt and anyone claiming this is not christian or hasnt spent anytime reading their bible.

Basically i go back to the idea that god knows a persons heart and regardless if you follow all that is written and all that you KNOW to be true and lead a good life according to what you think is gods will, you can still end up in that line where jesus says to depart fromme for i knew you not.
Kinda makes ya realize that no matter what bead you think you have on knowing the will of your god that in the end you just may be wrong.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by faceoff85

Originally posted by orangutang

have you ever lived with a jealous person? its most uncomfortable. love is totally absent. its an ego gone horribly wrong. its a sickness. yet you conceive of a creator with this attribute?
why do you want to go and live eternally with a mega-ego like that?
the concept is only possible because you are caught in a dualistic idea nurtured with your ego's fear of death.


hehehe.. I knew there had to be atleast one person around here to point that out... so you would be okay with your wife sleeping over at my place sometimes? dont think so.. darn you must be a really horible person to live with...


hehehe--i can never fathom how (mainly) christians can use human behaviour to describe/justify the actions of their perceived god. are they privy to infinity?
cant quite follow you there but no matter.
by the way, my wifes a 7 day adv. i can just see the headlines-------
JW & 7Day have heavenly affair.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by sarra1833
I was born and raised Christian Methodist and I'm 37. I have had my times of doubt and more questions that no one can answer except to say 'have faith'. Well, my only question of it all is simple:

A man does good to others, doesn't lie, cheat, steal, swear, etc, believes in God, takes Jesus as his Savior and goes to Heaven.

A man is evil to others, lies, cheats, steals, murders, rapes, tortures, doesn't believe in God or etc and goes to hell. Makes sense. Okay.

A man does good to others, doesn't lie, cheat, steal, swear, etc, but since he does NOT take Jesus as his Savior or believe in God he then goes to hell?

>_>
excuse me but..... what the #???? That is THE one reason why I tend to wonder at all of this. "you're good and believe in me, go have fun. you're evil and don't believe in me, burn in hell. you're good but don't believe in me, go burn in hell."

Really nice. Reallllly nice. So even if you're the best person in the world, if you don't believe in God and Jesus, you're doomed? I can NOT believe that and will NOT believe that. It basically means God is a dick who wants only those who believe in him to have a great after life. Too bad to those do gooders who happen to be atheist or any other religion or non religion.



I bring up the same exact point, but it is always ignored. I have never gotten an answer except the typical dogma.



posted on May, 26 2010 @ 09:42 PM
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I'm almost certain that 'prediction' could have applied to people at almost any stage of history and it was most likely talking about the people in the Roman Empire...

Besides that it could apply to, the 'barbarians' of the dark ages, kings in middle ages, renaissance, colonial era, the 60's, the 70's, the 80's, the 90's, now. I mean honestly its vague enough and relates to human nature so much it really doesn't mean much.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by impaired
 

By perspective what is considered good by one group of people, may be considered bad by another group, or vise versa.
To think a Creator could or would make something wrong, is somewhat funny, it seems the depth of what is really going on is lost somewhere in the translation.
To exist before the existence of time, or has time aways existed, anyhow i doubt mocking or second guessing the Creator is thing to do, if it even matters.
I don't believe in demons, but I dare not mock them either.
Once understanding has been attained, it would seem good to be humble before the Creator, and embrace the Power that Be.

Just for clarification: "if it even matters" if universe is already perfect, as to specs, how could it matter if all results were in the specs to begin with.


[edit on 27-5-2010 by googolplex]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

As I tell atheists after a good, long argument:

I understand that your atheism is probably stronger now than ever; but, just remember, when The End arrives, when you're staring The Truth in the eye, you're still welcome to call on the name of The Lord, and you will be saved right along with the most devout Christian.

Says so in the Bible.

— Doc Velocity


I wonder what is better -

To be wrong and have to say Oops Sorry

or

To be right and vanish into the earth as a corpse...

Either way, I say..

Nope, no end of times... Well, not the one you think..



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by orangutang
 


that would indeed be a good show... Sorry but I guess its in my best interest to not take you up on that
I've got enough trouble dealing with my own wife let alone yours.
I was just showing a paralel that there are types of jealousy wich are not bad... human one might say. keep in mind god created us in his own image according to the bible... for him to have similar emotions.... turn that around... for us to know emotions god knows as well... the jealousy displayed in a relationship (wich would be comparable to loyalty to god) is in my opinion a healthy type...



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 03:48 AM
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Originally posted by fizzy1


Ok good point on the omnipotent comment. I guess what i was saying is that there doesnt seem to be a basis for god choosing to know or not know. Its just accepted that all things are known to him. Not all things are known to him if he wants to look them up and know them. He sees everything and knows all without having to make a effort to.


I see where your coming from, but its displayed in the bible like I showed in genesis that god used this ablitiy selectively..



I believe in devils and satans, accusers and adversaries if you will as the words are translated but not the words being used as a proper name for a being.

Thats people reading too much of paradise lost and the divine comedy. Both of which are not biblical. Unless of course your reading books from the pseudepigrapha or apocryphal books like enoch and so on.
I have mentioned before that the actual story of the fall of satan from heaven with an army of rebel angels doesnt occur in the canonical bible. If it does please hit me up with book/chapter and verses.

Depending on if your catholic or protestant will depend on which books ar ein your bible so this again is another example of how much christianity differs in its acceptance of what is ok and not ok


Well as we use the bible as proof I'll try to explain how satan can be seen as a similar entity as christ himself. I understand you view the devil as "the evil present in all of us" type of context? my answer: job 1:6-12 and job 2:1-7 shows a conversation between Satan and god... One could say then god is talking to the evil within himself... wrong, as we can read in psalms 92:15 15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." deuteronomy 32:4 says something similair. So according to the bible god does not contain evil... who is he talking to then?
John 8:44 (New International Version)
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
This text describes a person likening to his "father" in the sence where he received his sinfull desires from the devil.
New International Version (NIV)
Zechariah 3:1, 2
1 Then he showed me Joshua [a] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
Another text where it is evident satan is spoken to as a person not some entity present in everyone..


The funny thing here is that not all christian churches can be 100% in agreement with what they believe when it comes to such things as angels and archangels and the interpretation of the nephalim and the flood etc etc. I could go on and on. The point being is that even during the time of the council of nicea they disagreed on the divinity of christ being the son of god. The arians arguing a very valid point that jesus was a creation of god and not always with god during the time of the creation. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation and jesus own statement of god being greater than he is.

The other end of the argument is that jesus is considered the word of god and in the begining there was the word and the word was with god. That jesus is of the same substance god is and therefore is one and the same. The saying "I and the father are one" And the father is in me and i in the father is supposed to be jesus's definition of his divinity.


about this part I want to tell you that it is very prudent to keep in mind that the chairman of the converence of nicea was Roman emperor Constantine... He was a pagan worshipping the sun-god among others (hense the sabbath-day was changed from saturday to sunday) as for the decision taken in that very meeting to from then on teach the trinity-principle, the same can be said. a tekst taken from a book of JW's:

"Constantine acted as a chairman, he actively led the discussions and prposed the formula for determining that the council proclaimed the creed which was recorded, and in wich the relationship between Christ and God was explained, that Christ is essentially the same [ho mo ‧ ‧ ‧ ou'si os] as the Father. Intimidated by the emperor the bishop's signed, except for just two. Many of them signed the declaration much against their wishes. "1
Was this pagan ruler's influence on them based on his biblical beliefs? No. In A Short History of Christian Doctrine is said: "Constantine had, in essence, absolutly no understanding of the issues in the Greek theology were that were at issue." 2 What he did understand was that religious disputes threatened the unity of his kingdom, and he wanted them to be settled.


I will never take what i am told or what i read on blind faith without further understanding of what it is that i am being told or reading. To do this is not only dangerous but stupid. Its also childish to not question and want to understand. Anytime a christian tells me i just have to accept it on faith i wonder why they think god would expect you to be a mindless moron and believe everything your told by anyone claiming to be a messenger of god or speaking gods word. Well actually he doesnt and anyone claiming this is not christian or hasnt spent anytime reading their bible.


Very wise... I live by the same standards.. the bible also says something about this: Proverbs 2:4,5 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.

Well I'm curious what you think of my expanation... took me some time. I'm from europe so around here its a little ways into the morning right now... I'm barely starting to wake up



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by impaired

Originally posted by sarra1833
I was born and raised Christian Methodist and I'm 37. I have had my times of doubt and more questions that no one can answer except to say 'have faith'. Well, my only question of it all is simple:

A man does good to others, doesn't lie, cheat, steal, swear, etc, believes in God, takes Jesus as his Savior and goes to Heaven.

A man is evil to others, lies, cheats, steals, murders, rapes, tortures, doesn't believe in God or etc and goes to hell. Makes sense. Okay.

A man does good to others, doesn't lie, cheat, steal, swear, etc, but since he does NOT take Jesus as his Savior or believe in God he then goes to hell?

>_>
excuse me but..... what the #???? That is THE one reason why I tend to wonder at all of this. "you're good and believe in me, go have fun. you're evil and don't believe in me, burn in hell. you're good but don't believe in me, go burn in hell."

Really nice. Reallllly nice. So even if you're the best person in the world, if you don't believe in God and Jesus, you're doomed? I can NOT believe that and will NOT believe that. It basically means God is a dick who wants only those who believe in him to have a great after life. Too bad to those do gooders who happen to be atheist or any other religion or non religion.



I bring up the same exact point, but it is always ignored. I have never gotten an answer except the typical dogma.


well since I felt sorry for you and want to at least TRY to give you guys a satisfying answer to this dillemma i'll give it a go...

First point to be adressed is that of death and the afterlife... wel guess what, there is no such thing so dont worry.. if you dont listen... you'll just die
but seriously what does the bible say about the dead?

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

I dont see anything about burning or being roasted... so what about our souls? are they eternal (so we can even receive eternal punishment?)

Ezekiel 18:4 (New International Version) 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Isaiah 38:18 (New International Version) 18 For the grave [a] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
Footnotes:

[a] 1. Isaiah 38:18 Hebrew word Sheol (one of 3 words translated into the current word HELL)

These texts show the dead are not capable of ANYTHING, neither be punished nor be joyfull (in the case one beliefs they might go to heaven after dying)
But doesn't the bible say that sinners will be punished after death?

Romans 6:7 (New International Version)7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

What the? so what about Hell? how can we go there? (If you wanted to
)
Well you cant.. because it is in no sensea biblical teaching but a doctrine... the bible does talk about purification though... how would we be purified? there is but 1 road wich can lead to that.

Revelation 1:5 (New American Standard Bible) 5and from Jesus Christ, (A)the faithful witness, the (B)firstborn of the dead, and the (C)ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who (D)loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--

Now it is undoubtedly true that there are a few requirements to partake in gods promise to us man as we read about that in the following text:

Revelation 21:4 (New International Version) He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

The conclusion is as follows: God will ONLY save those who call out to him (calling out also has its own requirements to be able to do) on the day of HARMAGEDON.. BUT god will not punish sinners for all eternity, sinners will die accroding to the bible but they will not be tormented... their life's simply will be "over" in the literal sense.
Hope this clears something up...



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

But, the last thing a Christian fears is Death. There is no such thing as Death to a Christian. If you have no fear of Death, then you fear nothing else the world can dish out.


— doc Velocity


That can't be right... I have no fear of death but I have a deep seeded fear of incarceration or torture. Imagine being locked up for ten years and tortured horrifically every day of your pitiful existence.

That scares the hell out of me, doesn't it you?



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by nunya13
Prediction: By tomorrow this thread will still be going in the direction of endless babbling, arguing and ridicule since people never concede their beliefs to the other side.

We'll see if it comes true by then...I'll be keeping an eye out.


yes, you're right; but i enjoy a good philosophical rave for a while.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by awakentired


Bear in mind the time frame that this letter was written ...like 20AD and each of Jesus's deciples were men of the faith of Jerusulem...Jews. They followed the faith and sabbath. If you don't follow the sabbath then you are part of the lawless and since population increases so does the lawlessness.


[edit on 26-5-2010 by awakentired]


Wrong. If YOU would have studyed the bible you would know about the numerous examples from wich to derive that the old mozaic law is no longer valid.

Colossians 2:13-16 (New International Version)

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature (man), God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code (the old mozaic law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross (Jesus's sacrifice). 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink (Yay pork is back on the menu!!!), or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Read that? so nope humans not practicing sabbath are not being BAD-BAD

[edit on 27-5-2010 by faceoff85]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 12:04 PM
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In a Christian Creation, would a Atheist be a by-product.
Now I should not be punished for this, from my understanding it is hard to offend a Atheist.
I don't see how a Christians could be a by-product of Atheistisaum.

In reguards to Creation, number one factor you are here, you are not, not here, Atheist please explain, first off denine yourself, your existance.
I don't exist, therefore I do not exist and am not here, therefore a figment of my own imagination, and very good one at that I may add.
There is no profound order of things, just a haphazard fart in the nothingness, that caused my presents.

An Atheist presents poor evendence for his case, if you were not here your case would be much stronger.

It would seem the Bible would be meger attemp by man to explain things as best as possible from a view thru the veil.

Travling at the speed of mind for a Billion years you would still know nothing of the Creator.

To think there is not higher intellegence in the universe would be some what vain, to not see the one single concept of pure knowlege would be none realistic.

The Earth is a # hole, have you contributed your poop today.

[edit on 27-5-2010 by googolplex]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 12:11 PM
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most dont scoff at te bible they scoff at the preacher trying to be what they are not. Most scoff at the scandal contrived by they who aline themselfs with the bible and thus the church is who most scoff at and not the book.

Take that and add the fact that no one has the original text only a diluted version created by that who we scoff at "the church".

The church is not god, they need to line up with the rest and not be praised as a idol. The pope is a great example of this corruption of gods sheeple miss lead.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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you guys have it all wrong IF THE END COMES OF COURSE AN ATHEIST IS GOING TO PRAY TO GOD COMES BECAUSE THAT CONFIRMS HIS EXISTANCE An atheist is so strong because he lives in a self realizing consistant state. HE is alive today there for God might not exist compared to the 100% that he is alive this day and can read the research saying the earth has existed for thousands upon thousands of years experiencing many "armageddon " like states therefore the chances of the apocalypse described in the bible happening are slim locust with the faces of humans and adorning crowns.... hmmm little hard to believe. the 4 horsemen, the seven trumpets? if those all don't go according to the book, there isn't much hope left for yee of faith, Even still I don't believe God sincerely intended on factioning his creation(s)or manipulate it in anyway I think he wanted to observe like T.V he created us in his image very rarely do we see something on t.v and say OMG I MUST LIFT MYSELF UP AND TAKE ACTION IMMEDIATLY I WILL GO TO AFRICA AND PLANT FIELDS OF WHEAT FOR THE CHILDREN!!!! which could explain this almighty powers abscence or the rare occurance of "miracles" we change our minds being created in Gods image maybe he changes his mind tooo maybe everything written all those years ago has changed.



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by faceoff85
 


Thanks Faceoff.

See, now this makes a little more sense.
Basically you're saying that the only form of hell exists here on Earth (due to our actions)?

Also, I've heard a man at a Christian Kiosk say almost the same thing. Do I have it right that Christians go around talking stuff that they do not know about?

Either way, I'll re-read your post a few times. Thanks for taking the time to post it!


[edit on 5/27/2010 by impaired]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 02:49 PM
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Oh noez! Double post!


[edit on 5/27/2010 by impaired]



posted on May, 27 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by impaired
I bring up the same exact point, but it is always ignored. I have never gotten an answer except the typical dogma.

The whole creation is in a state of futility right now...
...but it is about to be renewed...
...every living thing will be restored except those sentient beings who choose not to be.

Some of us are already a part of this New Creation...
...and most of the world including most religionists are muddying the waters right now...
...the new dawn is about the break...
...and it is often coldest and darkest before the dawn.




posted on May, 27 2010 @ 07:58 PM
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Great post s/f. keep up the good work.


Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job came before Moses, Joshua, The Judges, The Kings and prophets. Imagine the faith that made him the man he was. Job was neither Jew nor a Christian but he new in the "latter day what group he would stand in. I feel sorry for those who have seen and still don't believe.

No matter how educated one is or what they do not believe in. It will be moot when you come before the creator. It will be amazing to see an atheist stand before the great and terrible God of the universe and claim "I don't believe in you". But that will not happen because the book says "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God"

[edit on 27-5-2010 by Loken68]





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